Only a "Fool" Would Believe the 5th Park is Near...

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
But a Six Flags wasn't designed in the same way as WDW. I agree with your point...but people are going to Six Flags for thrill rides. There is not one person that says, "hey, let's go to WDW for their thrill rides."

Yep (and I think you get what I'm saying). Just to add: I don't think people do that with Pirates - even regulars. I'm not saying no one has ever slept on Pirates but when people go on it they don't typically seek it out for a nap.

There's something wrong with your attraction when someone seeks it out for a nap (and I've done it, too).
 

DisneyFans4Life

Well-Known Member
Yep (and I think you get what I'm saying). Just to add: I don't think people do that with Pirates - even regulars. I'm not saying no one has ever slept on Pirates but when people go on it they don't typically seek it out for a nap.

There's something wrong with your attraction when someone seeks it out for a nap (and I've done it, too).
LOL - if I have to choose between COP or a bench in the middle of August...you know where I'm going.
 

gmajew

Premium Member
Yep (and I think you get what I'm saying). Just to add: I don't think people do that with Pirates - even regulars. I'm not saying no one has ever slept on Pirates but when people go on it they don't typically seek it out for a nap.

There's something wrong with your attraction when someone seeks it out for a nap (and I've done it, too).
\

40 min or what ever energy is could knock me out even if it is the coolest thing ever... after walking around all day and just being tired a dark cold ride that long is the perfect place for people to doze off even if it has giant monsters attacking you.... My wife can fall asleep in 30 seconds on the couch at night... trust me even if she is not tired sitting that long we are in trouble.
 

seascape

Well-Known Member
Universal will attack the family market massively in their third park with their purchase of Dreamworks. We can only hope this forces Disney to up their game substantially. Three gates, a waterpark and 2 entertainment complexes? Mix it with the Seaworld multi park pass and you have enough to fill 10 days, without stepping foot into Disney. And saving yourself a fortune in the process.
I think you are deluding yourself if you think you will save any money when Universal adds their 3rd and 4th gate. Just look at their price increase today. They want $169.00 for a one day park to park ticket from the ticket office during peak time and $164.00 for children. (Can anyone believe either company cares about the family of 4 or more? Only families with only children can afford it.) That is $5.00 more than Disney's one day park hopper. Both parks charge too much and don't care about the one day guest. They want the tourist. They don't even want the local season pass holders. Once Universal finishes their additions and can fill their parks with people staying in their resorts do you think they will care about those staying a day or two? No way and neither will Disney. The one area the 2 companies agree on in the international traveler who will stay 2 weeks. Look out because they will most likely get together on those guests and offer them a combined deal but for the rest of us dream on. Support the one you want and stay away from the other. Maybe one place on even years and the other on odd years but forget the idea of being able to afford both. Season Passes will cost over $1,000.00 each at both Companies parks. Forget the average person. Only employees and rich guests will be able to afford to go and that will leaves the locals to Sea World and Bush Gardens and they will be better off for it. I pay $360.00 for 2 adult season passes to Six Flags with meals, parking and water park. And pay over $1,600.00 for Disney World annual passes and tickets to MNSSHP and MVMCP. And then food on top of that. If I want to go to Universal for a day it would cost me another $340 plus tax and more for parking and food.
 

UpAllNight

Well-Known Member
I think you are deluding yourself if you think you will save any money when Universal adds their 3rd and 4th gate. Just look at their price increase today. They want $169.00 for a one day park to park ticket from the ticket office during peak time and $164.00 for children. (Can anyone believe either company cares about the family of 4 or more? Only families with only children can afford it.) That is $5.00 more than Disney's one day park hopper. Both parks charge too much and don't care about the one day guest. They want the tourist. They don't even want the local season pass holders. Once Universal finishes their additions and can fill their parks with people staying in their resorts do you think they will care about those staying a day or two? No way and neither will Disney. The one area the 2 companies agree on in the international traveler who will stay 2 weeks. Look out because they will most likely get together on those guests and offer them a combined deal but for the rest of us dream on. Support the one you want and stay away from the other. Maybe one place on even years and the other on odd years but forget the idea of being able to afford both. Season Passes will cost over $1,000.00 each at both Companies parks. Forget the average person. Only employees and rich guests will be able to afford to go and that will leaves the locals to Sea World and Bush Gardens and they will be better off for it. I pay $360.00 for 2 adult season passes to Six Flags with meals, parking and water park. And pay over $1,600.00 for Disney World annual passes and tickets to MNSSHP and MVMCP. And then food on top of that. If I want to go to Universal for a day it would cost me another $340 plus tax and more for parking and food.

I meant you'd save money doing Universal/Seaworld rather than Disney/Universal. I should have made that clearer.

Most people obviously won't do that because Disney is Disney, but it would be a definite option for people to fill out a full vacation doing theme parks in Orlando without stepping foot in Disney, once Universal expands.

And you probably wouldn't need to drive either as it will all be connected by various transport systems. Saving money on parking.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
I agree with your general point that expansion within the existing parks is the priority, but I don't think it's as bad as you do. Once the known DAK and DHS projects are complete, I think the only remaining need will be Future World.

I also don't think Disney will ever build a fifth gate, nor do I think they should. Fully built, Magic Kingdom will be two full days, Epcot will be two full days, DHS will be at least one full day and DAK will be at least one full day. That's a full vacation week. Any more would be too much.
If DHS and DAK are to really become true full day parks more is still needed especially at DAK. This is what happens when stagnation is allowed to set in for a decade. So much that needs to be done gets piled up to the point where you don't know where to start. I probably would be able to spend a day at Epcot exploring everything I don't do normally if I went alone but that's not really the case. For most people there needs to be more things to do and some things already there need to be made better (Imagination, UoE, Innoventions, etc.)
I think you are deluding yourself if you think you will save any money when Universal adds their 3rd and 4th gate. Just look at their price increase today. They want $169.00 for a one day park to park ticket from the ticket office during peak time and $164.00 for children. (Can anyone believe either company cares about the family of 4 or more? Only families with only children can afford it.) That is $5.00 more than Disney's one day park hopper. Both parks charge too much and don't care about the one day guest. They want the tourist. They don't even want the local season pass holders. Once Universal finishes their additions and can fill their parks with people staying in their resorts do you think they will care about those staying a day or two? No way and neither will Disney. The one area the 2 companies agree on in the international traveler who will stay 2 weeks. Look out because they will most likely get together on those guests and offer them a combined deal but for the rest of us dream on. Support the one you want and stay away from the other. Maybe one place on even years and the other on odd years but forget the idea of being able to afford both. Season Passes will cost over $1,000.00 each at both Companies parks. Forget the average person. Only employees and rich guests will be able to afford to go and that will leaves the locals to Sea World and Bush Gardens and they will be better off for it. I pay $360.00 for 2 adult season passes to Six Flags with meals, parking and water park. And pay over $1,600.00 for Disney World annual passes and tickets to MNSSHP and MVMCP. And then food on top of that. If I want to go to Universal for a day it would cost me another $340 plus tax and more for parking and food.
So to you it would be bad business to try to be attractive to both locals and international tourists? You have to kick one to the curb to be successful? What happens when some event occurs that causes international travel to go way down? It has happened before and can very well happen again.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Universal will attack the family market massively in their third park with their purchase of Dreamworks. We can only hope this forces Disney to up their game substantially. Three gates, a waterpark and 2 entertainment complexes? Mix it with the Seaworld multi park pass and you have enough to fill 10 days, without stepping foot into Disney. And saving yourself a fortune in the process.

Not to mention proximity to the new OCCC, So conventioneers can get on UNI's new transit system and travel directly to UNI after a long day of breakout sessions
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
If DHS and DAK are to really become true full day parks more is still needed especially at DAK. This is what happens when stagnation is allowed to set in for a decade. So much that needs to be done gets piled up to the point where you don't know where to start. I probably would be able to spend a day at Epcot exploring everything I don't do normally if I went alone but that's not really the case. For most people there needs to be more things to do and some things already there need to be made better (Imagination, UoE, Innoventions, etc.)

So to you it would be bad business to try to be attractive to both locals and international tourists? You have to kick one to the curb to be successful? What happens when some event occurs that causes international travel to go way down? It has happened before and can very well happen again.


You mean what Disney is doing with the One-n-Done and to hell with the locals plan they have now.
 

BrianLo

Well-Known Member
IF they continue to match the amount of money and things they are opening between 2016-2021 and do that for an additional 5 years... Then we will talk.

If things go back to status quo after the DHS rebuild for years, we'll be right back where we started with 3/4 flawed parks.

DLR is the next state side place that will get a gate. WDW is years off from needing it. There is more than enough room in their existing parks to build and entire park worth of capacity.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
IF they continue to match the amount of money and things they are opening between 2016-2021 and do that for an additional 5 years... Then we will talk.

If things go back to status quo after the DHS rebuild for years, we'll be right back where we started with 3/4 flawed parks.

DLR is the next state side place that will get a gate. WDW is years off from needing it. There is more than enough room in their existing parks to build and entire park worth of capacity.
One would hope that Universal's third park could force Disney's hand to continue investing in quality products for their parks but I fear we would just get more things of the Frostrom/TSL variety rather than Avatar/SWL. That third park could very well be the catalyst that finally brings Uni above the WDW parks that aren't MK.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
One would hope that Universal's third park could force Disney's hand to continue investing in quality products for their parks but I fear we would just get more things of the Frostrom/TSL variety rather than Avatar/SWL. That third park could very well be the catalyst that finally brings Uni above the WDW parks that aren't MK.
For better or worse, it's largely irrelevant whether the Universal parks are "better" than the WDW parks. With the exception of Harry Potter and (I imagine) Star Wars, people don't go to Orlando for specific parks, they go for a comprehensive vacation experience. WDW's "blessing of size" will always be a trump card because Universal will never be able to fill out a week-long itinerary like WDW does. They simply don't have the space to build that much stuff.
 

odmichael

Well-Known Member
A quality Disney Vacation is not affordable as it is. I would never be able to go to Disney World if a fifth park opened even 15 years from now.
 

Buried20KLeague

Well-Known Member
Even Disney and Universal don't view it that way. Everyone likes to bash "blue ocean," but "blue ocean" is real. You don't need to beat the other guy in your market, just grow the market.

Hardly.

That's what they may say publically. Like when a sports team compliments their opponent. But you're crazy if you don't think there have been plenty of closed door meetings of nervous execs talking about what's going on down I-4. They care about every dollar lost to competition. Especially when competition is trending up at a rate such as Uni has been for 2-3 years now, with more expansion planned. They're not going to lunch together and high-fiveing.

Proof of this is Magical Express. Hundreds of thousands of dollars (at least) per year at no additional cost to the rider (yeah, yeah, it's in the cost of the hotel room) designed to make it simple to get to Disney property and very difficult to anyplace else.

Proof of this is Free Dining. Millions of dollars per year in free food and drink given away (yeah, yeah, it's in the cost of the hotel, etc) to entice those that are on the fence about Disney to not only go, but also spend extra dollars to stay on-site, at which point they receive free (lol) food and drink, making it much less enticing to leave property.

Proof of this is Magic Your Way tickets. They get cheaper the more days you add. It can be a tough choice for mom and dad and their two kids... Do we add two more days to our tickets at Disney for a total of $120 (or whatever it is) for a family of 4, or do we go buy two day park hopper tickets at Uni for $959, plus spend money for food and drink there when we already have the free dining plan at WDW?

Proof of this is the over $2 BILLION dollar cluster known as MyMagic. Designed to squeeze more blood out of the turnip, by Iger's own admission. Billed as a way to "leave your wallet in the room". All meant to simplify (and data mine) your park-going experience and deter you from leaving.

I'm quite sure there are other ways they work to keep people at WDW, but those are the four that instantly popped into my head.

Those aren't designed because TDO is content with losing double-digit percentage revenue to Uni.
 
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Mike S

Well-Known Member
For better or worse, it's largely irrelevant whether the Universal parks are "better" than the WDW parks. With the exception of Harry Potter and (I imagine) Star Wars, people don't go to Orlando for specific parks, they go for a comprehensive vacation experience. WDW's "blessing of size" will always be a trump card because Universal will never be able to fill out a week-long itinerary like WDW does. They simply don't have the space to build that much stuff.
I meant attendance wise though we don't know exactly what will happen between now and the third park. Avatar could be a big boon for DAK and Star Wars obviously for DHS. Truthfully I could see Epcot falling a bit if Frostrom and Soarin' is all they've got. For Uni I could see Volcano Bay and their three parks being able to fill a week with everything that will be opening. Remember that those three parks will have way more to do for average guests than Epcot/DHS/DAK. Uni could also start building more of their attractions like Transformers and "build up" to put better use to their smaller space available. Also add whatever will be done with "CityWalk 2" if you want.
 
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BiffyClyro

Well-Known Member
I think that it has been said that the NBA Experience talks have fallen through, and so will no longer be coming.

Thank you! Thought it had all been a bit quiet on that front/ couldn't find much information when googling.

Think the problem with past Downtown Diney attractions is that everything is kinda easily given a miss since no one really wants to pay for an ok activity/ entry to somewhere when you have the parks.
 

seascape

Well-Known Member
If DHS and DAK are to really become true full day parks more is still needed especially at DAK. This is what happens when stagnation is allowed to set in for a decade. So much that needs to be done gets piled up to the point where you don't know where to start. I probably would be able to spend a day at Epcot exploring everything I don't do normally if I went alone but that's not really the case. For most people there needs to be more things to do and some things already there need to be made better (Imagination, UoE, Innoventions, etc.)

So to you it would be bad business to try to be attractive to both locals and international tourists? You have to kick one to the curb to be successful? What happens when some event occurs that causes international travel to go way down? It has happened before and can very well happen again.
I think you misunderstood my post. I said neither Universal nor Disney really care about the locals but care about those staying on property. Look at the ticket prices they charge and the extras they give those who stay on property. Look at the massive increases in the cost of their annual passes and daily passes but the discounts for passes then expire in 2 weeks. The profits margins are higher for vacationers than locals. That is why they can charge so much more than Six Flags or Cedar Fair. As for Sea World they will wind up a regional park and not a destination park after Universal finishes with their 2 new gates. There will no longer be a reason for them to join in and offer a discount to customers who go to Sea World. Sea World is holding on with their annual passes and those taking advantage of the Orlando pass. Do you really think Universal will continue with it? They want to make more money and compete with WDW not help Sea World and Sea World will no longer offers any value to Universal. Sea World should have expanded in the past when they had the opportunity but now they have nothing and are living on the scraps of Disney and Universal.

The future traveler will decide on either a Universal or Disney Trip and not do both because of the cost. That is just reality because each park will have enough to offer people a full week's vacation and the vast majority of people only have the funds to do one and even that is with running up their credit cards. Not everyone is as lucky as some of us who can afford 3 or more vacation a year and live debt free. Most people work hard and deserve a nice reasonably priced vacation but that is one that neither Disney nor Universal offer. And remember there are lots of people who consider a vacation to a regional theme park a great time and an affordable one. But Universal will have 15,000 to 20,000 hotel rooms and Disney will have over 50,000. They will both do very well with those staying on site and those staying in the other timeshares picking which resort they will go to. Orlando will do fine and so with both companies. The locals can work for one of them part time and get passes and then pay for Sea World/Bush Garden passes but only the rich can really afford the prices Disney and Universal charge. If you think I am wrong then explain how a family of 4 with median income of $51,939 (The U.S. Census Bureau reported in September 2014 that: U.S. real (inflation adjusted) median household income was $51,939 in 2013) can afford to stay and spend a week on property and either park. Remember they have to pay for food, clothing, transportation, housing and health care. And that is just the start. Those of us here are not the average person by any means. Do you really think Universal cares even a little about someone who only makes $52,000 a year. I know Disney cares that they go to movies and watch Disney owned TV channels but not that they go to WDW or DL. Universal is the same. They care about how much they can make off of each person but nothing else. Business is business. the bottom line is all that counts.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I get what you're saying, but if you follow your system, it really is a 1-day park. You've avoided the longest two lines by far, giving plenty of time to see all the attractions including taking your time through Innoventions and World Showcase. Nothing against that - moving slowly through Epcot is one of my favorite things to do. But it absolutely can be done in a day.

When you cherry pick what to see.. of course. When you actually stop to smell the roses and actually experience everything.. no way.
 

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