On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[UNCgolf]

No - I said "It's biggest draw and awe is completely watered down now. No one walks into Italy anymore and is awed by the architecture... no one walks through England and feels like they are near the tower. It's a backdrop... no longer a 'travel the world' experience. People have had far too much exposure beyond the photos or grainy TV that the boomer generation grew up with."

I said it's biggest draw - the awe - which comes from having all these places recreated here - is watered down. It's antiquated by today's standards, and its impact is greatly diminished because of the type of exposure and access people have to these places and culture now.

I said "imagine what World Showcase would be to adults these days if Disney hadn't come up with the festivals..." -- Meaning if you took DDP, Festivals, and Illuminations away from the WS you know today... look at what you really have. Are the backdrops and attractions really what bring people into World Showcase over and over? Or is it people are really just there for the festivals and restaurants?

Which I reiterated the point with highlighting where and how World Showcase has been expanded for the last 30 years... that should help bring into focus what drives interest.

I said it earlier, but I don't think that was the draw of World Showcase for most of its existence.

Maybe in the early 80s, sure, but by the 90s, I don't think maybe people were looking at it as a "travel the world" experience. I know I wasn't, and yet I still liked it. I think you're coming at it from a flawed premise.

 

[UNCgolf]

I don’t know that the edutainment concept is as fatally flawed as some suggest. As one who has been to so many good museums in recent years with my young kids, the smaller, youth focused children’s museums have figured it out. Now,many of these attractions are likely not consonant with a COVID—infected world (lots of hands-on experiences, etc) but the DNA of the original EPCOT Future World still lives on in some of the great science and children’s museums of the US. Again, I respect that may not be what customer surveys or attendance trends say drives things, but think there *could* be a way forward in the edutainment realm if they wanted it.

Edutainment definitely isn't dead -- in fact, it's probably bigger now than it was when EPCOT opened.

There are tons of science museums, children's museums, etc. that offer hands-on experiences that are doing incredibly well; often better than they were doing before the Internet. There's been some evidence that the Internet has actually made those places more successful rather than less -- mainly that people see it and think "wow, that looks cool! I want to go see/do that!".

 

[flynnibus]

I said it earlier, but I don't think that was the draw of World Showcase for most of its existence.

Maybe in the early 80s, sure, but by the 90s, I don't think maybe people were looking at it as a "travel the world" experience. I know I wasn't, and yet I still liked it. I think you're coming at it from a flawed premise.

I never compared it to the 90s... I compared it to when WS was conceived and what it was built for.. in the late 70s. The draw it had to the middle aged person in 1983... compared to the middle aged person today. The premise under which it was built, does not have the same punch and purpose today as it did when it was built.

And why in part the mob really don't care that culture attractions are being replaced by 'Disney brand entertainment'. The stuff being replaced they have little interest in... they don't need WS anymore to get that kind of stuff in such live mediums.

 

[UNCgolf]

I never compared it to the 90s... I compared it to when WS was conceived and what it was built for.. in the late 70s. The draw it had to the middle aged person in 1983... compared to the middle aged person today. The premise under which it was built, does not have the same punch and purpose today as it did when it was built.

And why in part the mob really don't care that culture attractions are being replaced by 'Disney brand entertainment'. The stuff being replaced they have little interest in... they don't need WS anymore to get that kind of stuff in such live mediums.

That's fair.

I also don't think World Showcase was ever the major draw for EPCOT (at least other than potentially when it first opened, as you mentioned) -- it's typically been more of a place to get food you maybe can't get at home, and definitely can't get elsewhere in the parks, as well as doing a bit of fun exploration.

Future World was the big draw in my eyes (and I think most others), and most of the original pavilions could be humming along quite nicely today if they'd been willing to make the necessary investments.

 

[_caleb]

No - I said "It's biggest draw and awe is completely watered down now. No one walks into Italy anymore and is awed by the architecture... no one walks through England and feels like they are near the tower. It's a backdrop... no longer a 'travel the world' experience. People have had far too much exposure beyond the photos or grainy TV that the boomer generation grew up with."

I said it's biggest draw - the awe - which comes from having all these places recreated here - is watered down. It's antiquated by today's standards, and its impact is greatly diminished because of the type of exposure and access people have to these places and culture now.

I said "imagine what World Showcase would be to adults these days if Disney hadn't come up with the festivals..." -- Meaning if you took DDP, Festivals, and Illuminations away from the WS you know today... look at what you really have. Are the backdrops and attractions really what bring people into World Showcase over and over? Or is it people are really just there for the festivals and restaurants?

Which I reiterated the point with highlighting where and how World Showcase has been expanded for the last 30 years... that should help bring into focus what drives interest.

Got it! Thanks. Guess I was a little dense on that one.
For some reason, I thought you were saying Disney has "watered down" the experience with festivals and IP. But you're saying the world has changed, making WD less impressive than it once may have been. Which makes sense to me.

Does this mean you're for IP-ification of WS? Or maybe some alternative approach to keeping it relevant?

 

[_caleb]

Honestly, with the price of a Disney vacation now, those who go to Epcot can just as easily afford to go see the real thing, and take a side trip to DLP for a castle-park fix to boot. DVC hid the actual costs to me, but when we decided to sell and started to realize what we could do with our money, post-pandemic Europe will be winning out over #23 trip to Florida . . .

I think this is right, and I think it's what pushed Disney to rethink World Showcase and start pulling in IP. Originally, guests may have approached WS as "almost like visiting the real thing!" but as @UNCgolf has been saying, that's probably not been the case for a while now.

So what is WS if not a taste of exotic real-world places? Apparently, Disney's answer is "a food court and extension of Hollywood Studios."

 

[Lilofan]

I think this is right, and I think it's what pushed Disney to rethink World Showcase and start pulling in IP. Originally, guests may have approached WS as "almost like visiting the real thing!" but as @UNCgolf has been saying, that's probably not been the case for a while now.

So what is WS if not a taste of exotic real-world places? Apparently, Disney's answer is "a food court and extension of Hollywood Studios."

One very unique aspect of World Showcase is that every country merchandise shop has some unique clothing, food, drink, decorative items one cannot find anywhere in the USA. The Helly Hansen sportswear at Norway is my favorite.

 

[flynnibus]

Does this mean you're for IP-ification of WS? Or maybe some alternative approach to keeping it relevant?

I don't have the armchair solution of what EPCOT should be for the future... I just know what was big-time in 1980 isn't anymore. And when you look around WS... i don't think they have done anything to address that.. in fact probably made it worse with the reduction in performers, etc.

In the commando schedule everything world of 2019 WDW that Disney has created... I don't think Disney left a place for "sitting back and just enjoying the fountain and trying to convince you that this is what the replace place is like".

Disney has priced 'relaxing' out of their own product.

Maybe the representations still works for a 6yr old... but even teenagers now have thousands of hours of exposure to these kinds of places before they ever set foot in the place. It's neat as a first timer, but you quickly see it for what it is.. a setting. I don't think its a destination upon itself anymore... its just where people go to find some variety in their DDP schedule.

I think the original concept is past its time.. and needs to be reimagined into something worth doing. But fitting that into the high volume, high paced world of WDW is a interesting challenge.

 

[UNCgolf]

I don't have the armchair solution of what EPCOT should be for the future... I just know what was big-time in 1980 isn't anymore. And when you look around WS... i don't think they have done anything to address that.. in fact probably made it worse with the reduction in performers, etc.

In the commando schedule everything world of 2019 WDW that Disney has created... I don't think Disney left a place for "sitting back and just enjoying the fountain and trying to convince you that this is what the replace place is like".

Disney has priced 'relaxing' out of their own product.

Maybe the representations still works for a 6yr old... but even teenagers now have thousands of hours of exposure to these kinds of places before they ever set foot in the place. It's neat as a first timer, but you quickly see it for what it is.. a setting. I don't think its a destination upon itself anymore... its just where people go to find some variety in their DDP schedule.

I think the original concept is past its time.. and needs to be reimagined into something worth doing. But fitting that into the high volume, high paced world of WDW is a interesting challenge.

I don't see them changing it because of how much money they make off the food/beverage sales. Even though the DDP has made the quality of that food decline significantly.

 

[flynnibus]

I don't see them changing it because of how much money they make off the food/beverage sales. Even though the DDP has made the quality of that food decline significantly.

So it's a fancy Disney Springs that requires admission...

 

[UNCgolf]

So it's a fancy Disney Springs that requires admission...

Pretty much. Except sprinkled with some MK 2.0 like FEA and Rat.

That's also one of the many reasons that the fact they let Future World essentially rot in place for two decades is so awful.

 

[EPCOT-O.G.]

So it's a fancy Disney Springs that requires admission...

Ouch. You’re over target on this one. Harsh but true.

 

[networkpro]

Honestly, with the price of a Disney vacation now, those who go to Epcot can just as easily afford to go see the real thing, and take a side trip to DLP for a castle-park fix to boot. DVC hid the actual costs to me, but when we decided to sell and started to realize what we could do with our money, post-pandemic Europe will be winning out over #23 trip to Florida . . .

The costs are similar, but then again if you're somewhat near Florida (either by air or by automobile) you dont have to deal with the hassle of Customs, money exchange, a 6-hour flight, and facile value proposition.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Ouch. You’re over target on this one. Harsh but true.

How tall do you have to be to ride Paddlefish, and are there any drops?

 

[flynnibus]

The costs are similar, but then again if you're somewhat near Florida (either by air or by automobile) you dont have to deal with the hassle of Customs, money exchange, a 6-hour flight, and facile value proposition.

Honestly the biggest difference is simply time investment. Americans don't put enough days in vacation so the idea of losing more time to travel scares them to death.... and would rather do 3 different things in a week than go spend 2 weeks traveling Europe.

 

[UNCgolf]

Honestly the biggest difference is simply time investment. Americans don't put enough days in vacation so the idea of losing more time to travel scares them to death.... and would rather do 3 different things in a week than go spend 2 weeks traveling Europe.

Especially since travel to Europe involves giving up basically two full days just for the travel.

Yes, you can fly overnight to get there (and that's what I've typically done), but it's often difficult to sleep on the airplane and then your first day at your destination is a tired slog.

 

[Lilofan]

Especially since travel to Europe involves giving up basically two full days just for the travel.

Yes, you can fly overnight to get there (and that's what I've typically done), but it's often difficult to sleep on the airplane and then your first day at your destination is a tired slog.

Melatonin 10mg and not even mini turbulence would wake me up.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Because it’s cheaper.

Does anyone remember the Spain pavilion they did at Food and Wine back in the early aughts?

 

[networkpro]

Honestly the biggest difference is simply time investment. Americans don't put enough days in vacation so the idea of losing more time to travel scares them to death.... and would rather do 3 different things in a week than go spend 2 weeks traveling Europe.

The objective of a vacation to me is relaxation, not a Disney Death March or endless tour group drag. Two weeks is insufficient to cover Europe IMHO. You can zoom around and see things out of a bus or train window, but you dont experience much, just a carefully curated snippet.

Now if you were to go to Munich for Oktoberfest, Köln for Fasching for a targeted two weeks that would be different, but during tourist season you better learn Mandrin.

 

[Communicora]

Connect the dots... people not just want to take a picture, the instagram world wants to STAND OUT. No one is discovering or standing out by taking a instagram photo of the EPCOT version of the tower of london... or what everyone can pickout as the undersized WDW knockoff vs the grand originals.

International travel has increased, however only 42% of Americans even have a passport. People including children seem to still enjoy strolling through the world pavilions. I know it helped spark an interest in travel for me after visiting as a kid. Heck, I even enjoy it now after having visited some of these countries.