Oh no, say it ain't so, Joe..

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
but then again I have yet to go during Christmas week, 4th July, Easter break and the like.
I have. DAK handles crowds very well in my opinion.

The biggest design flaw is hiding dinosaur... I’m not sure how that land was supposed to expand, but it should be the weenie into the land and then the carnival should be off to the side, not the other way around.

I guess the coaster was supposed to be the man visual draw into the land, and maybe there was going to be an exhibit or something off to the side to lure towards dinosaur? I’m not sure.
 

yensid67

Well-Known Member
JOE ROHDE LAID OFF? I would think that Disney would not lay off it main Imagineer that is responsible for a lot of things...Parks and attractions! But I could be wrong in thinking Disney makes smart decisions! LOL
 

HongKongFooy

Well-Known Member
The biggest design flaw is hiding dinosaur..


But it's a nothing facade, boring as all get out. Can there be a more faceless facade on property housing a headliner??........there is nothing whatsoever about the building to attract.....low profile and sterile.

If it were impressive like a Hogwart castle, Hightower Hotel, Volcano for JTTCE , an Everest or a Cadillac Range I hear ya..........
But as of now it's best to hide the lackluster building instead of accentuate it by exposing it and making it visible from afar.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
You need to be able to move guests in natural ways around paths that are large enough to be comfortable, yet "small enough" not to seem empty. That is the trickiest part of designing a park area or whole theme park, as Disney has gone both extremes: Animal Kingdom guest areas looked amazing, but were too small and got crushed and uncomfortable for guests as soon as the park got crowded. Tokyo Disneyland and Epcot wide paths and plazas are capable of receiving thousands of guests without struggling, but look sparce and not appealing visually. What is the happy medium? That is the million dollar question that designers today are still trying to discover.

Another thing I remember from our conversation was that his company was subcontracted by Disney to build two pavillions in Epcot's World Showcase. The one pavillion he didn't get that he found the the most flawed for guests was Canada. The fact that you need to go up stairs or a ramp to reach the attraction and second set of shops make it difficult for guests to find their way there and make those facilities underutilized. Judging by the fact Disney closed down the set of shops up there for years now, they still haven't solved that issue.
World showcase can not handle crowds well. It was bad on the weekend in February this year let alone on peak holidays like nye.

Africa was pretty crowded before the new pathways were built I will agree with that.
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
But it's a nothing facade, boring as all get out. Can there be a more faceless facade on property housing a headliner??........there is nothing whatsoever about the building to attract.....low profile and sterile.

If it were impressive like a Hogwart castle, Hightower Hotel, Volcano for JTTCE , an Everest or a Cadillac Range I hear ya..........
But as of now it's best to hide the lackluster building instead of accentuate it by exposing it and making it visible from afar.
We are saying the same thing. It’s hidden both by its location, and by its facade.
 

EagleScout610

This time of year I become rather Grinchy
Premium Member
Virtually all of those listed have already broken ground and passed the point of no return, practically speaking. Splash has a few pieces of concept art.
Splash only has the one piece of Concept Art, and it's the one we've all seen.
WDW-Princess-and-the-Frog-Attraction-spalsh-mountain.jpg
 

Absimilliard

Well-Known Member
I have. DAK handles crowds very well in my opinion.

The biggest design flaw is hiding dinosaur... I’m not sure how that land was supposed to expand, but it should be the weenie into the land and then the carnival should be off to the side, not the other way around.

I guess the coaster was supposed to be the man visual draw into the land, and maybe there was going to be an exhibit or something off to the side to lure towards dinosaur? I’m not sure.

Animal Kingdom changed layout wise since opening day and I'll resume it by era:

- 1998-1999: with Asia delayed until 1999, the park opened with congested paths and was composed of two dead ends from Safari Village (center island with the Tree of Life), Africa and a small circular path behind the Tree of Life that went from Africa to Asia, which consisted only of a theater at that point. Dinoland was a T shape, with Countdown to Extinction on the right and Jungle Book theater on the left. With only the one path passing in front of Flametree BBQ, Dinoland was a one way in and out affair. Camp Mickey and Minnie was also a deadend with one bridge in and out. Harambe Village (Africa) was the only land with more than one access point, using the aforementioned path that went behind the Tree of Life. There were small touches on that path, such as winding forest paths that could be used as shortcuts, but the park was dramatically undercapacity and the cramped paths, trees and design made the park an average 10F hotter than the other Disney parks at that point.

- 1999-2006: Asia phase 1 opened, with Kali River Rapids and Maharaja Jungle Trek. It was still difficult to navigate as guests were again stuck in a deadend, with guests forced to backtrack to the existing Asia bridge. This was the era I am most familiar with as I was at the park often while I worked at Epcot. Countdown to Extinction became a lot less intense, was renamed to Dinosaur and had its height restriction lowered to 40 inches in 2000, but it didn't increase the ride ridership. Dinorama opened in 2001, adding some capacity and shoring up Dinorama. The noise and colors distracted a bit from the general tone of the park.

-2006-2014: Everest did much more than just adding a major e-ticket. It allowed the completion of the right side park loop, allowing guests to finally transit from Asia to Dinoland without moving through the congested Safari Village and its bridges and paths. It increased foot traffic to the Dinoland theater as well and with Everest the ultimate "weenie", balanced the park away from Kilimanjaro Safaris.

-2014-2016: discreetly, without any publicity, Disney corrected the guest flow and crowd issues with Safari Village and Oasis. Paths were made wider, facilities improved and the flow is much more natural. In 2014, Festival of the Lion King was relocated to Harambe, with a new market restaurant area, new bathrooms and more paths. Construction of a new path from Harambe to Pandora bypassing Safari Village begins.

-2017: Pandora opens, ending the impressive work cleaning up the original park design, leaving only Conservation Station as a remnant of the original park design. Adding the Lion King theater to Harambe as well as creating another access point out of Africa and into Pandora helped finish the task of making the park that everyone remembers now, the one capable of handling crowds and that doesn't have the issues I raised earlier.
 
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MarvelCharacterNerd

Well-Known Member
Just to provide a non-regular perspective on AK - I've been two or three times. I literally cannot recall which. By the second or third time (whichever), I figured out that if I just go find Africa, I can spend all of my time there watching FotLK (repeatedly), the drummers and the acrobats.

Otherwise, I for sure cannot find my way around the place.

I've seen the UP show once - don't need to do that again.

I've been to Pandora once - went on NRJ, too short, not enough animatronics, saw a guy in a robot suit, walked into the cafeteria and didn't see anything appetizing to eat. Looked around the land and thought, well, that's green all right. But the rest of the nature trails in other parts of the park that I got lost on with more natural foliage looked nicer.

Saw some gorillas somewhere. Don't need to do that again.

Saw Everest from afar. Can't ride it.

Never saw where the safari or river rapids attractions were. Or if I did, I missed that that's what I was passing by.

Never figured out where the Dinoland, train to the island or wherever, or Nemo shows were. Don't think I saw any table service restaurants anywhere. So I grabbed food from snack carts.

So yeah, my experience of AK is that Africa has great entertainment. Oh, and the Tree of Life looks great from afar. Never figured out if there's a way to get near it.

The place seems like a maze to me.

So is the park confusingly designed or am I stupid? Guess the jury is out. ;)

All reactions IMO of course.
 

Po'Rich

Well-Known Member
Just to provide a non-regular perspective on AK - I've been two or three times. I literally cannot recall which. By the second or third time (whichever), I figured out that if I just go find Africa, I can spend all of my time there watching FotLK (repeatedly), the drummers and the acrobats.

Otherwise, I for sure cannot find my way around the place.

I've seen the UP show once - don't need to do that again.

I've been to Pandora once - went on NRJ, too short, not enough animatronics, saw a guy in a robot suit, walked into the cafeteria and didn't see anything appetizing to eat. Looked around the land and thought, well, that's green all right. But the rest of the nature trails in other parts of the park that I got lost on with more natural foliage looked nicer.

Saw some gorillas somewhere. Don't need to do that again.

Saw Everest from afar. Can't ride it.

Never saw where the safari or river rapids attractions were. Or if I did, I missed that that's what I was passing by.

Never figured out where the Dinoland, train to the island or wherever, or Nemo shows were. Don't think I saw any table service restaurants anywhere. So I grabbed food from snack carts.

So yeah, my experience of AK is that Africa has great entertainment. Oh, and the Tree of Life looks great from afar. Never figured out if there's a way to get near it.

The place seems like a maze to me.

So is the park confusingly designed or am I stupid? Guess the jury is out. ;)

All reactions IMO of course.
If only WDW provided something that you could use to help navigate the park. You know, something like a map. :)
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
Just to provide a non-regular perspective on AK - I've been two or three times. I literally cannot recall which. By the second or third time (whichever), I figured out that if I just go find Africa, I can spend all of my time there watching FotLK (repeatedly), the drummers and the acrobats.

Otherwise, I for sure cannot find my way around the place.

I've seen the UP show once - don't need to do that again.

I've been to Pandora once - went on NRJ, too short, not enough animatronics, saw a guy in a robot suit, walked into the cafeteria and didn't see anything appetizing to eat. Looked around the land and thought, well, that's green all right. But the rest of the nature trails in other parts of the park that I got lost on with more natural foliage looked nicer.

Saw some gorillas somewhere. Don't need to do that again.

Saw Everest from afar. Can't ride it.

Never saw where the safari or river rapids attractions were. Or if I did, I missed that that's what I was passing by.

Never figured out where the Dinoland, train to the island or wherever, or Nemo shows were. Don't think I saw any table service restaurants anywhere. So I grabbed food from snack carts.

So yeah, my experience of AK is that Africa has great entertainment. Oh, and the Tree of Life looks great from afar. Never figured out if there's a way to get near it.

The place seems like a maze to me.

So is the park confusingly designed or am I stupid? Guess the jury is out. ;)

All reactions IMO of course.
shame you didn’t try anything at the canteen, one of the best counter service restaurants on property. I’m glad you saw the entertainment in Africa.

If you saw Everest and not the nemo theatre you must have turned around and back-tracked. Which is fine, but if you had continued walking you would have come right to the nemo show and then dinoland.

You also would have been right next to Tusker House in Africa, and walked past Yak & Yeti in Asia. Depending on how you entered Pandora you would have walked right past Tiffins.

Theme parks are big and it’s easy to miss things when walking in crowds, but they were there. I don’t think the DAK restaurants have any less signage than other WDW restaurants. Some are literally hidden in Epcot.
 

Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
Just to provide a non-regular perspective on AK - I've been two or three times. I literally cannot recall which. By the second or third time (whichever), I figured out that if I just go find Africa, I can spend all of my time there watching FotLK (repeatedly), the drummers and the acrobats.

Otherwise, I for sure cannot find my way around the place.

I've seen the UP show once - don't need to do that again.

I've been to Pandora once - went on NRJ, too short, not enough animatronics, saw a guy in a robot suit, walked into the cafeteria and didn't see anything appetizing to eat. Looked around the land and thought, well, that's green all right. But the rest of the nature trails in other parts of the park that I got lost on with more natural foliage looked nicer.

Saw some gorillas somewhere. Don't need to do that again.

Saw Everest from afar. Can't ride it.

Never saw where the safari or river rapids attractions were. Or if I did, I missed that that's what I was passing by.

Never figured out where the Dinoland, train to the island or wherever, or Nemo shows were. Don't think I saw any table service restaurants anywhere. So I grabbed food from snack carts.

So yeah, my experience of AK is that Africa has great entertainment. Oh, and the Tree of Life looks great from afar. Never figured out if there's a way to get near it.

The place seems like a maze to me.

So is the park confusingly designed or am I stupid? Guess the jury is out. ;)

All reactions IMO of course.

LOL. How?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I guess it is preference, but I just don't think AK ever really lived up to its intention. WDW already had EPCOT Center and Discovery Island when AK was in development, both of which included animal exhibits/education and cultural displays. What did AK bring that was new? It was more immersive than Busch Gardens and realistic than Adventureland, but didn't have as many exhibits or rides, or even the charm of something as hokey as the Tiki Room. This is where Beastly Kingdome would have really made a difference and where Avatar does help despite my disinterest in that IP. It would have added some other perspective on animal appreciation/human history beyond just showing animals in their natural state. That's what I mean as "literal". It's not just having cracked pavement or exposed telephone wires, it's taking a setting and focusing on reproduction instead of reinterpreting it into a show. No, the animals don't have to sing and dance, but that's part of the reason why Walt abandoned using real animals for the Jungle Cruise and why the World Showcase pavilions are not perfect replicas of their respective locations. There are limitations to what can be accomplished in this medium from an operations and feasibility perspective, but there's also an opportunity to create something new and more beautiful. Animal Kingdom Lodge does this in a way the theme park doesn't and I wish the park were more like that. All IMO.
I think you could make similar claims about Disneyland. Western and fairytale parks were not new, nor were attractions based on exotica. Aside from combining these different experiences, what really set Disneyland apart was its commitment to realizing that idea. Even realism was part of it. There’s the story from John Hench about Walt insisting on using leather straps on the stagecoaches despite them not being visible. The Mark Twain and Columbia were both celebrated for for reviving long dormant forms of American shipbuilding. C.K. Holiday and E.P. Ripely are a similar sort of detailed recreation. The park was full of realistic elements that went beyond the standards of other themed entertainment venues. Main Street, USA and World Bazaar at the Magic Kingdom, Tokyo Disneyland and Disneyland Paris share many design elements but I would argue that Disneyland Paris has the superior, more romantic and more vibrant street because of its greater realism. Its materiality and tectonics are more authentic and smaller details that suggest a past all build to create a distinct versions.

While this is different that the intentional weathering of Disney’s Animal Kingdom, I thing it’s still part of a similar sort of storytelling based decision. Like you note, Disney’s Animal Kingdom Lodge does not have that same weathering, and as I previously noted it is not even a constant within the park. It’s an intentional choice that differentiates the park from places like the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT Center that are more a celebration of man’s ability to conquer nature than the actual power of nature itself.

Now is Joe to blame for all of the above? No. Corporate takes the blame for budget cuts, building half-realized attractions like Kali River Rapids and failing to maintain the show that was built. But Joe and his admirers have drunk their own cool aid about the technical skills and surface details and believe that is the difference between their parks and others. As we saw this week with BatB in Tokyo, just having tech and detail isn't always enough.
This is where I think it is important to not conflate ornament and detail. A detail supports the story while ornament can be purely superfluous.

Then Tony Baxter owns rocket rods correct?
Tony Baxter would be the first to tell you he owns Rocket Rods. He admits he should have pushed back when GM pulled out instead of trying to salvage an idea that no longer had the resources to work. I also think that is a bit of ego talking. I’m not sure the likes of Pressler and Eisner would have had any qualms about handing him a pink slip if he put up too much of a fuss.

Absimilliard, you nicely explained your #141


So Animal Kingdom paths and walkways on super busy days can't handle the foot traffic. I see. Out of say 100 visits to AK the last 20 years I have never had an issue navigating the walkways due to overcrowding---not even one day..........but then again I have yet to go during Christmas week, 4th July, Easter break and the like.
As originally conceived, Disney’s Animal Kingdom was supposed to be sort of like Tom Sawyer’s Island: The Park. There was no directional signage nor even a park map. The intent was that guests were to get a bit lost and explore the park, discovering things along the way and not running back-and-forth from ride to ride. This can work for an attraction like Tom Sawyer Island or Adventure Isle but it can easily become trying as the entire experience. As part of its focus on nature the park also eschews the “weenie” oriented design. You don’t have these clear vistas to visual icons, but most people navigate by visual references. With the park mostly being landscape its look was too similar to orient oneself. It was too much of a corn maze with too many dead ends.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Don't get me wrong, I don't think he is horrible or bad in any way. He just has never created a ride that has 'WOWED' me at all. I think becuase his name is out there people think of him as this generations Mark Davis or Claude Coats or Tony Baxter. He is not on any of their levels to be honest. He is ok. Its like when a show gets deep into its series run and the original writers who made it what it was are long gone but we had like a 4th tier writer get promoted to head writer by defualt. The writing then becomes ok but not the reason I fell in love with the show in the first place.
There are very few things stateside that are comparable to Tokyo Disney Sea, Disney's Animal Kingdom is one of them.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
There are very few things stateside that are comparable to Tokyo Disney Sea, Disney's Animal Kingdom is one of them.

Besides having additional attractions, DisneySea is also much more of a built environment than Animal Kingdom with many more structures that are both taller and wider. AK by its design doesn't have those, except Everest and it can't compare with Mount Prometheus when it comes to being a believable, natural mountain.

The comparison starts and ends with both being detailed environments in a general sense. I'd say Adventureland at DLP is closer to the feel and look of AK. There's the obvious aspects of East African, North African and South Asian design, but the land's arrangement around Adventure Isle also focuses sightlines on natural formations and obscures the built structures on the periphery like AK does. And as with AK, it also needs more rides. ;)

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bjlc57

Well-Known Member
Beautifully said. Kali River Rapids is Exhibit A of his narcissism. A queue filled with crap from his research trips and a ride that is boring and one of the weakest rapid rides you’ll ever experience.

For a park with hardly any rides, I rarely go on it. Speaks volumes on his ability to understand what makes an enduring attraction.
now isn't it true that the "complete Kali rapids ride " is totally different then what we have today and that it was supposed to be twice as long and a much better ride and that the BEAN COUNTERS cut this ride in half.. isn't that close to being true..?
 

TrainsOfDisney

Well-Known Member
@bjlc57 I have a book somewhere that has the original concept art, by Joe himself I believe. It was a boat ride, not a white water raft. You saw real animals from the boats. The monkey island temples in Asia are apart of that design I believe.

So yes, the original “tiger river” ride was very different.

Funny how I never read about how the BEAN COUNTERS are responsible for the quality of Disneyland Paris because they let Baxter spend like a drunken sailor.

Ok at this point this is getting to be like Magenta’s hatred of muppets. Completely laughable. What Disney project has NOT gone over budget!? Ha.
 
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