Oh no, say it ain't so, Joe..

[Animaniac93-98]

While Disney’s Animal Kingdom is a celebration of nature, it does present an ideal, but one that is notably less anthropocentric.

Disney has also watered down the "celebration of nature" aspect with many of the changes/additions over time. It's hard to argue that a Finding Nemo puppet show really advocates for conservation and appreciation.

Conservation Station is arguably the most valuable experience when it comes to education and guest interaction with animals, but it's in the very back of the park and only accessible by one specific method (the train, which gets flack like the River Boats did because the park has so few rides that any one that's seen as a let down has a bigger impact). Besides my personal dislike of the aesthetic of certain areas, the park has a number of design choices that just seem odd to me.

I also recognize my AK criticisms are a minority opinion.

EDIT: I also realize that Conservation Station's location is also related to being accessible to where most of the animals are kept.

 

[1HAPPYGHOSTHOST]

Pompus and snooty ? I think we've got a new character for the next iteration of Mike Judges "Idiocracy" Frito has some serious competition.

That movie sucks. It stretches a bad SNL skit for 90 minutes.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Disney has also watered down the "celebration of nature" aspect with many of the changes/additions over time. It's hard to argue that a Finding Nemo puppet show really advocates for conservation and appreciation.

Conservation Station is arguably the most valuable experience when it comes to education and guest interaction with animals, but it's in the very back of the park and only accessible by one specific method (the train, which gets flack like the River Boats did because the park has so few rides that any one that's seen as a let down has a bigger impact). Besides my personal dislike of the aesthetic of certain areas, the park has a number of design choices that just seem odd to me.

I also recognize my AK criticisms are a minority opinion.

EDIT: I also realize that Conservation Station's location is also related to being accessible to where most of the animals are kept.

Which park hasn’t been watered down in the past 20 years? Even Tokyo DisneySEA is now getting a full on Fantasyland that completely distorts the organization of the park.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Which park hasn’t been watered down in the past 20 years?

Disney Studios Paris.

It had no where to go but up.

 

[asianway]

Wildlife express is probably my most hated Disney attraction.

Such wasted potential

 

[britain]

I would say that this speaks to Joe’s ability. Disney’s Animal Kingdom faced those same problems, including reductions in funding after the fact, and was able to still present a clear vision that remains strong to this day, that has not required billions of dollars in fixes.

I would say AK suffered from the exact opposite flaws as DCA did. After DLP, you could either have a beautiful half day park, or an ugly full day park. AK did the first, DCA did the second, and WDSP did neither right.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I would say that this speaks to Joe’s ability. Disney’s Animal Kingdom faced those same problems, including reductions in funding after the fact, and was able to still present a clear vision that remains strong to this day, that has not required billions of dollars in fixes.

Is there an update on the guy? I heard no fire earlier?

Anyway...joe does good creative work. And destroys budgets in a public stock business. Many a person has been laid off/fired over the years in part to him.

And dak has suffered...it was redlined through construction in large part because no budgets could be met. It has way less today than it could have had if responsible costs control instead of research trips would have been a priority.

That’s on Joe.

The romanticism about blowing the budget to “do it right” was a myth that was believed at that point. Epcot and Euro.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I would say AK suffered from the exact opposite flaws as DCA did. After DLP, you could either have a beautiful half day park, or an ugly full day park. AK did the first, DCA did the second, and WDSP did neither right.

Disney’s California Adventure was not a full day park. They were all built to offer the 7.4 attractions for a ”satisfactory” day that remains the guiding principle to this day. Both Disney’s California Adventure and Disney’s Animal Kingdom even received similar quick additions in Bug’s Land and Dino-Rama to add more rides.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

The romanticism about blowing the budget to “do it right” was a myth that was believed at that point. Epcot and Euro.

And now they blow the budget to do it wrong? Lol.

I certainly don’t think he’s a saint but I think he’s a great designer. Following his Instagram when he points out details and why they are there is really cool. Seems to be more depth than just dropping a hidden Mickey in certain places.

I’ll also add that he seems to think it’s best to spend all the AA money on one impressive figure. I think Everest and Avatar River would benefit from having multiple AA’s. So I can see how his spending may not always be the most sensible.

 

[_caleb]

Trying to show off technical abilities and how cool the "real world" was instead of presenting something better. The park wants to take you to "exotic" places, but in too literal a sense. It comes across as imitation and doesn't really add anything more besides copyrighted Disney IP

You think AK is ”too literal?” Have you traveled to Africa or South Asia?

 

[BrianLo]

I can't speak for the other poster, but IMO;

Joe started a trend in WDI that obsessed over detail and forgot the fundamentals about good park design. His obsession with authenticity fails to understand adaptation or the appeal of the Disney parks as romanticized realities. I think a perfect example was when AK opened, and among other things, people couldn't find their way back to the parking lot. He had a vision for the park that did not really suit the needs of guests or add anything more to the "zoo with rides" concept that hadn't been done before besides making it a little more polished in its presentation.

AK, his signature work, was built in the same era of WDI that saw an interest in industrialized environments (factories, studios etc) and technology for the sake of technology (Test Track 1.0 being the ultimate example). Trying to show off technical abilities and how cool the "real world" was instead of presenting something better. The park wants to take you to "exotic" places, but in too literal a sense. It comes across as imitation and doesn't really add anything more besides copyrighted Disney IP (not always Joe's fault). Avatar is the only land that really builds on an concept and takes it further, wisely distancing itself from the narrative of the original movie.

To me, there's a thru line that connects Main Street, New Orleans Square, World Showcase, Mediterranean Harbor etc and its a kind of romanticism. Animal Kingdom Lodge has that, but not the park itself. It's a shame.

I also increasingly appreciate how someone like Claude Coats could use threadbare resources and make something memorable, instead of WDI spending half a billion for something that still feels half baked. Everyone at WDI is guilty of this, but Joe's approach to and advocating of research trips won't teach him or others how to change that.

I think in part that your criticsm of Joe comes down to preference rather than his work being over-rated.

Magic Kingdom (and frankly Tokyo Disney Sea is a lavishly glorious Magic Kingdom 2.0) is definitely your cup of tea. Tony Baxter of course being the purest last student and steward of that type of theme park 'art' for lack of a better word.

I appreciate that Joe created something arguably different that has furthered the diversity of themed entertainment. One doesn't have to compete against the other though, both philosophies have merit. He's just a different type of artist than Disney or Baxter.

However, both also belong mostly contained in their separate gates. It is largely the weird mixing and matching of the two since the older parks have long since lost their original stewards that is making the other parks more grotesque with time. Joe definitely works best within his wheelhouse and portfolio. Not mashed into where his style clashes.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

And now they blow the budget to do it wrong? Lol.

I certainly don’t think he’s a saint but I think he’s a great designer. Following his Instagram when he points out details and why they are there is really cool. Seems to be more depth than just dropping a hidden Mickey in certain places.

I’ll also add that he seems to think it’s best to spend all the AA money on one impressive figure. I think Everest and Avatar River would benefit from having multiple AA’s. So I can see how his spending may not always be the most sensible.

His job has ALWAYS been to balance cost with product...to maximize what can be done for the dollars.

Unfortunately he’s the last not to be told. It’s whats been wrong with WDI.

You don’t have to go “cheap” and slash budgets...but you don’t have to go from $700 mil for a land to a $1 bill with no added attractions/elements. They have been prone to do that type of thing.

There’s a happy medium between NFL and TSL and “intergalactic desert non-descript land”

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

There’s a happy medium between NFL and TSL and “intergalactic desert non-descript land”

Agreed. Was avatar the same budget as Star Wars?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

You’ve seen the original designs for that area correct?

If he didn’t have a history of blowing budgets to ridiculous level...he’d get more benefit of the doubt on original concepts. Every company with capex has consulting or in-house INDEPENDENT cost estimators that are not the artist, architect and engineer

Don't get me wrong, I don't think he is horrible or bad in any way. He just has never created a ride that has 'WOWED' me at all. I think becuase his name is out there people think of him as this generations Mark Davis or Claude Coats or Tony Baxter. He is not on any of their levels to be honest. He is ok. Its like when a show gets deep into its series run and the original writers who made it what it was are long gone but we had like a 4th tier writer get promoted to head writer by defualt. The writing then becomes ok but not the reason I fell in love with the show in the first place.

The only lead project he was on that “wowed” is Pandora...and there’s a rich, 70 year old elephant control freak in that room.

I can't speak for the other poster, but IMO;

Joe started a trend in WDI that obsessed over detail and forgot the fundamentals about good park design. His obsession with authenticity fails to understand adaptation or the appeal of the Disney parks as romanticized realities. I think a perfect example was when AK opened, and among other things, people couldn't find their way back to the parking lot. He had a vision for the park that did not really suit the needs of guests or add anything more to the "zoo with rides" concept that hadn't been done before besides making it a little more polished in its presentation.

AK, his signature work, was built in the same era of WDI that saw an interest in industrialized environments (factories, studios etc) and technology for the sake of technology (Test Track 1.0 being the ultimate example). Trying to show off technical abilities and how cool the "real world" was instead of presenting something better. The park wants to take you to "exotic" places, but in too literal a sense. It comes across as imitation and doesn't really add anything more besides copyrighted Disney IP (not always Joe's fault). Avatar is the only land that really builds on an concept and takes it further, wisely distancing itself from the narrative of the original movie.

To me, there's a thru line that connects Main Street, New Orleans Square, World Showcase, Mediterranean Harbor etc and its a kind of romanticism. Animal Kingdom Lodge has that, but not the park itself. It's a shame.

I also increasingly appreciate how someone like Claude Coats could use threadbare resources and make something memorable, instead of WDI spending half a billion for something that still feels half baked. Everyone at WDI is guilty of this, but Joe's approach to and advocating of research trips won't teach him or others how to change that.

This should be pinned at the top of every WDI/imagineering thread

I tried for years on the Dis to articulate this. I got into the stadium...but never down to the box seats where this is.

 

[Kram Sacul]

So is he leaving or what? This thread went down the toilet faster than a thread in the DL forum.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Agreed. Was avatar the same budget as Star Wars?

Budgets are somewhat fluid. WDI has their internal working budgets/allocations...but those can’t fully be trusted when leaked. The financials are sometimes strategically reported (on not...which means they become legend) to paint a story.

Some notable examples of values that aren’t possibly correct were Epcot, DAK, test track and Everest. Just a “tad” higher than the save face estimates. Dak is ridiculous...$800 mil? Good god...that was for moving the dirt on Kilimanjaro

I believe - not an expert - they were stating about $750 for avatar and $1 billion each for Abramsland??

Doesn’t take standard and poors to assess the value on those

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

So is he leaving or what? This thread went down the toilet faster than a thread in the DL forum.

It appears no...but the details have been far too ambiguous to rule it out.

He was tweeted at and responded “I’m still there”.
That in no way precludes him being in a lame duck period with contractual obligations or benefits to him.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Agreed. Was avatar the same budget as Star Wars?

They were close.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

They were close.

One is better

 

[nickys]

It appears no...but the details have been far too ambiguous to rule it out.

He was tweeted at and responded “I’m still there”.
That in no way precludes him being in a lame duck period with contractual obligations or benefits to him.

And everyone’s still there until December anyway.

At 65 he may actually want to cut back anyway and have more time for travelling for enjoyment than for Disney purposes, for example. Semi-retirement would be an option and come back for specific projects.

Personally as far as AK goes, I could happily spend all day there and not set foot in a ride other than the Safari. Although that was when there had the drummers and other entertainers. I love speaking to the cultural representatives, and have been lucky at Conservation Station to be able watch the vets at work on each visit.

Joe epitomises immersion which is what draws me to Disney. It’s what sets Disney apart from any other theme parks.