Adding or keeping out "IP" is not Joe's call to make, cf. Guardians Breakout.
-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
Oh no, say it ain't so, Joe..
- Thread starter LiterallyNobody
- Start date
Uncle Comcast may disagree.
networkpro
Well-Known Member
- In the Parks
- Yes
I'd say their ticketing reeks of desperation: Florida residents buy one day, stay until the 24th of December and "buy two days, get three free".
Sirwalterraleigh
Premium Member
Excellent points. And I could totally see him as a longterm “consultant” that is around like a sklar or a Baxter.
There are a lot of good things about Joe...but he spends too much and corporate is looking at a long (minimum 5 years) in reduction of capex. At 65, not sure that’s compatible for either side?
Disney fans have been trying to paint Comcast as being in imminent threat of collapse for 10
Years...timing kinda ironic, huh?
They are not...that does not make them Disney’s equal in park design/operation. But that gap is substantially closed than it once was.
All too “convenient” if they suddenly went bankrupt for an operation that can’t seem to build a kiddie coaster in under 4 years, no??
HongKongFooy
Well-Known Member
Unless one is drunk(or high on other drugs), conserved due to lack of thinking capacity, blind and alone, terribly distracted or walking around with an IQ of 60 or lower there is little excuse.
Animaniac93-98
Well-Known Member
Most Disney parks globally are either Magic Kingdom or Fake Movie Studios (including California Adventure). The only real exceptions are EPCOT, Animal Kingdom and DisneySea, but as you say DisneySea is another variation on the MK concept.
I guess it is preference, but I just don't think AK ever really lived up to its intention. WDW already had EPCOT Center and Discovery Island when AK was in development, both of which included animal exhibits/education and cultural displays. What did AK bring that was new? It was more immersive than Busch Gardens and realistic than Adventureland, but didn't have as many exhibits or rides, or even the charm of something as hokey as the Tiki Room. This is where Beastly Kingdome would have really made a difference and where Avatar does help despite my disinterest in that IP. It would have added some other perspective on animal appreciation/human history beyond just showing animals in their natural state. That's what I mean as "literal". It's not just having cracked pavement or exposed telephone wires, it's taking a setting and focusing on reproduction instead of reinterpreting it into a show. No, the animals don't have to sing and dance, but that's part of the reason why Walt abandoned using real animals for the Jungle Cruise and why the World Showcase pavilions are not perfect replicas of their respective locations. There are limitations to what can be accomplished in this medium from an operations and feasibility perspective, but there's also an opportunity to create something new and more beautiful. Animal Kingdom Lodge does this in a way the theme park doesn't and I wish the park were more like that. All IMO.
Now is Joe to blame for all of the above? No. Corporate takes the blame for budget cuts, building half-realized attractions like Kali River Rapids and failing to maintain the show that was built. But Joe and his admirers have drunk their own cool aid about the technical skills and surface details and believe that is the difference between their parks and others. As we saw this week with BatB in Tokyo, just having tech and detail isn't always enough.
EDIT: I think Discovery Cove is a better example of what AK wanted to be. That park does a much better job at setting your expectations and giving you the opportunity to learn about and interact with animals. It's also a much more expensive experience and has significantly lower capacity, but that seems to be the trade off.
EDIT 2: Most of AK could have been incorporated into MK or EPCOT and made both of those parks better experiences, but that wouldn't have been as marketable as another gate to encourage longer hotel stays.
Last edited:
Absimilliard
Well-Known Member
Amazing post that goes back to a conversation I had years ago with Ira West, one of the most legendary park designer in the industry. Ira West was part of Randall Duell design firm and he helped design throughout his career Magic Mountain, Kings Island, the Marriott's Great America parks, Parc Asterix, Samsung's Everland (their 8 million guests a year theme park in South Korea), Hersheypark transformation to a gated park, etc.
I met him at an industry event where Joe Rohde was receiving an award for Aulani and where he did a keynote speech about designing it. After the speech, I asked Ira West his honest opinion of Joe Rodhe. His answer was similar to what you said: worried about details than substance. Animal Kingdom was an awful park design from a guest flow and operational point of view and its only in preparation for Avatar that they started correcting the infrastructure.
Research trips are not a bad thing per say, but it should not occupy most of your financial and time ressources. Six Flags Magic Mountain Roaring Rapids has primitive, but still nice rock work around the later portion of the ride. Research trip for what they should look like? Ira West just pulled his photos from his rafting trip on the Colorado river that he went on before and that was what they used to make the river look more natural.
I met him at an industry event where Joe Rohde was receiving an award for Aulani and where he did a keynote speech about designing it. After the speech, I asked Ira West his honest opinion of Joe Rodhe. His answer was similar to what you said: worried about details than substance. Animal Kingdom was an awful park design from a guest flow and operational point of view and its only in preparation for Avatar that they started correcting the infrastructure.
Research trips are not a bad thing per say, but it should not occupy most of your financial and time ressources. Six Flags Magic Mountain Roaring Rapids has primitive, but still nice rock work around the later portion of the ride. Research trip for what they should look like? Ira West just pulled his photos from his rafting trip on the Colorado river that he went on before and that was what they used to make the river look more natural.
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
Then Tony Baxter owns rocket rods correct?
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
The designer of kings island criticized the layout of animal kingdom?
Brer Oswald
Well-Known Member
I definitely appreciate Joe’s work. There is definitely a need for his style of Imagineering....in conjunction with other styles. Alone, none of his work ranks among my most favourite, like what Tony Baxter or any of the golden age Imagineers.
I wouldn’t want him losing his job by any means. But I do think his talent should be used with other talents.
In the Walt era, you’d have people like Rolly Crump doing the art design, Bob Gurr doing the vehicles, Marc Davis coming up with character designs, and Blain Gibson sculpting it. You’d have styles clash but fit together. You don’t see that anymore and it’s a shame. It’s why the newer attractions are exemplary in one aspect, but weaker in most of the others.
I wouldn’t want him losing his job by any means. But I do think his talent should be used with other talents.
In the Walt era, you’d have people like Rolly Crump doing the art design, Bob Gurr doing the vehicles, Marc Davis coming up with character designs, and Blain Gibson sculpting it. You’d have styles clash but fit together. You don’t see that anymore and it’s a shame. It’s why the newer attractions are exemplary in one aspect, but weaker in most of the others.
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
Well.... Joe isn’t doing anything by himself. Mary Blair typically gets all the credit for small world but Alice Davis, Rolly Crump and the Sherman Brothers really are to thank for many of the most memorable aspects of the attraction.
Absimilliard
Well-Known Member
Kali River Rapids lame rapids can be blamed on Disney wanting a lower height restriction for kids. Historically until the 1990's, Intamin (the manufacturer of Kali River Rapids) river rapids had no height restriction. It was just "3 years old and above" as a loose standard. In the 1990's, most parks in the US with those rides went to a 42" height restriction even when the kids are accompanied by adults. When it came time for the river rapids ride at Animal Kingdom, you'd have had a 42" height restriction if they would have gone with the average restraints and ride forces. It would have been difficult as back then, Countdown to Extinction was still a 46" height restriction and the park didn't have Triceratops Spin for younger guests.
As a result of wanting to lower the height restriction, they changed the ride design to remove all the physical rapids and added lap bars to one seat from every boat. The added lap bar lowers the height restriction from 42" to 38" in those seats, making the ride more kids friendly. How did they physically remove the rapids? Regular river rapids rides place physical obstruction at the bottom of the channel, creating visual white rapids and moving the boats when they go above them. Cut telephone poles, PVC pipes, etc. have been used to great success by many manufacturers. What did Disney use at Kali River Rapids? Flexible rubber hoses. When the water goes over, you see rapids... but when the heavy boat goes over, it crushes it and the boat barely moves, creating the lame ride that relies on a drop today.
As a result of wanting to lower the height restriction, they changed the ride design to remove all the physical rapids and added lap bars to one seat from every boat. The added lap bar lowers the height restriction from 42" to 38" in those seats, making the ride more kids friendly. How did they physically remove the rapids? Regular river rapids rides place physical obstruction at the bottom of the channel, creating visual white rapids and moving the boats when they go above them. Cut telephone poles, PVC pipes, etc. have been used to great success by many manufacturers. What did Disney use at Kali River Rapids? Flexible rubber hoses. When the water goes over, you see rapids... but when the heavy boat goes over, it crushes it and the boat barely moves, creating the lame ride that relies on a drop today.
Brer Oswald
Well-Known Member
Clearly, but as you stated in your example, there were several people with distinct styles and specialties on small world.
It’s likely a similar case now, but it isn’t apparent in the final product
HongKongFooy
Well-Known Member
Absimilliard
Well-Known Member
There's actually a great story there. When Taft Broadcasting, who had just purchased Hanna-Barbara in the late 60's, wanted to build a theme park around Cincinnati to replace the local Coney Island, they spoke to people from the industry for advice, including Disney. The big feedback from Disney was: buy more land than you'll ever think you'll need. Based on that, they bought 1600 acres in Warren County north of Cincinnati and had Randall Duell's firm design the park around a Hub-and-Spoke model with the Eiffel Tower in the center and a loop that went around it, similar to what he had designed in Anaheim for Disneyland. Spokes additionally went out from International Street to Oktoberfest on the left side and Hanna-Barbara land on the right so that guests did not have to reach the Eiffel Tower to move into the spokes. Access to the spokes from World Bazaar was included at Tokyo Disneyland and its helps a lot and that came after Kings Island opened. Operationally, Kings Island was perfect and while they opened with a lot of moved rides from Coney Island, they soon got their own identity.
The star attractions on opening day were the Enchanted Voyage, a 100 audio animatronics dark ride featuring the Hanna-Barbara characters and the Racer, a classic duel track wooden roller coaster that restarted the roller coaster war and lead to the second golden era of amusement park openings. The influence and success of Kings Island, Six Flags Over Texas and Over Georgia as well as Astroworld (Houston, TX) lead to the creation of all the big amusement parks that came to the US and around the world later.
Last edited:
Absimilliard
Well-Known Member
You need to be able to move guests in natural ways around paths that are large enough to be comfortable, yet "small enough" not to seem empty. That is the trickiest part of designing a park area or whole theme park, as Disney has gone both extremes: Animal Kingdom guest areas looked amazing, but were too small and got crushed and uncomfortable for guests as soon as the park got crowded. Tokyo Disneyland and Epcot wide paths and plazas are capable of receiving thousands of guests without struggling, but look sparce and not appealing visually. What is the happy medium? That is the million dollar question that designers today are still trying to discover.
Another thing I remember from our conversation was that his company was subcontracted by Disney to build two pavillions in Epcot's World Showcase. The one pavillion he didn't get that he found the the most flawed for guests was Canada. The fact that you need to go up stairs or a ramp to reach the attraction and second set of shops make it difficult for guests to find their way there and make those facilities underutilized. Judging by the fact Disney closed down the set of shops up there for years now, they still haven't solved that issue.
TrainsOfDisney
Well-Known Member
Absimilliard
Well-Known Member
Homemade Imagineering
Well-Known Member
Now that is something I’d want to see! Here is an article going into depth of the Enchanted Voyage’s history https://www.visitkingsisland.com/blog/2018/january/remembering-the-enchanted-voyage@marni1971 - tribute video on this? Please.
HongKongFooy
Well-Known Member
Absimilliard, you nicely explained your #141
So Animal Kingdom paths and walkways on super busy days can't handle the foot traffic. I see. Out of say 100 visits to AK the last 20 years I have never had an issue navigating the walkways due to overcrowding---not even one day..........but then again I have yet to go during Christmas week, 4th July, Easter break and the like.
So Animal Kingdom paths and walkways on super busy days can't handle the foot traffic. I see. Out of say 100 visits to AK the last 20 years I have never had an issue navigating the walkways due to overcrowding---not even one day..........but then again I have yet to go during Christmas week, 4th July, Easter break and the like.