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NYT: "Universal....Takes Aim at Disney"

Jimmy Thick

Well-Known Member
Funny thing about reputations, they can be ruined. See: Tiger Woods

Disney's reputation is far too developed in American culture, even the world. Would never get to that point, it's too carefully monitored.


As for Tiger Woods, I believe people should have gave the guy a break to begin with, he got shafted doing things very few men in his position would not have been able to resist. Tiger gets slack from me.


Jimmy Thick-Being human is being a human being.
 

Carebee21

Member
18 million to 73 million?!?

Disney is not quaking in their boots, yet.

I got to Uni once very few years. 2 days max.

I got to WDW Full Week.

Uni is fun. Disney is a destination.

Disney may not be quaking in their boots yet, but it'll be interesting to see what happens with the next generation if they don't clean up and improve their parks.

As it stands now, my 8 year old son has little interest in returning to Disney World. He has his favorite rides, but for the most part, he thinks a lot of rides are boring, babyish or just don't appeal to him. For example, Hollywood Studios. He enjoys TOT, RnRC and TSMM. But the backlot tour is boring for him and he doesn't know the majority of the movies in The Great Movie Ride, so again, it just doesn't interest him. It's hard to pay full admission prices knowing he only really cares for a handful of rides in each park. And I don't see that changing anytime soon. He could care less about the new princess meet and greet they're building, has no interest in The Beauty and The Beast dining and has never seen Avatar. He is interested in the Dwarf Coaster and Test Track refurb, but we'll see how they actually turn out.

On the other hand, he loves Universal. He knows and likes Harry Potter, Cat in the Hat and all the superheros. Their rides are exciting to him and something he knows and recognizes. And their new attractions, Despicable Me and Harry Potter expansion both interest him and are something he recognizes and likes. Yes, I know Universal isn't for everyone, especially younger kids, but my son would pick IOA over any Disney park on any given day.

If other children follow my son's line of thinking and prefer US and their parents take them to the park the kids prefer, then attendance may change quite a bit in the future. If my son goes to US over Disney from here on out, a lot of his memorable childhood vacation memories will be at US. Then when he has kids, his nostalgia will lie with US, not Disney and that will influence his vacation choices in the future.
 

Buried20KLeague

Well-Known Member
Wow, you've really piqued my curiosity now. Even if the train had just been a very immersive and picturesque ride from point A to point B, I would have been impressed. But from what you're saying, I'm incredibly awed by the scope of this expansion. I'm dying to hear more. I'm especially curious to hear how the outside scenery is going to be achieved. Will it be screens? Will it be Kong-esque? Will it be sets? Or a combination of everything above?

I also agree with the poster above who deduced from your comment about 'in-cabin' effects, that a dementor attack is sounding more and more likely.

I have no proof of this, but I'm guessing that they won't actually be "trains", anyway. I picture vehicles like Spidey, or Dinosaur, all chained together, encased in a train car shell. This would give each separate "car" freedom of movement that a train wouldn't give... And allow for hightened sensation as the train "flies" along the countryside. Heck, there could even be more than one program, so that not every ride was the same. When all you have are motion simulators and screens, you could vary the journey (a la Star Tours).

I'd love for whylightbulb to give me a "hot" or "cold" on this idea... :drevil:

Obviously if it weren't really a linear "train", there would be many ways to add more vehicles to the track.
 

bubbles1812

Well-Known Member
Disney's reputation is far too developed in American culture, even the world. Would never get to that point, it's too carefully monitored.


As for Tiger Woods, I believe people should have gave the guy a break to begin with, he got shafted doing things very few men in his position would not have been able to resist. Tiger gets slack from me.


Jimmy Thick-Being human is being a human being.

"He got shafted doing things very few men in his position would not have been able to resist"...you have such a lovely view of your own ______. He was married. Cheating on your wife isn't right whether you are a poor person or a rich person. His behavior was disgusting on all levels.

But anyways, Disney does have a reputation that is deeply engrained in American culture yes. But they have a reputation for some things that aren't good (such as what they pay...everyone, and I mean everyone knows it's crap) and the way they are raising ticket prices, it is going to fast become impossible for even some average middle class families to visit the parks for a week. 100$ dollar tickets aren't that far off and if people can't bring their families, that nostalgia factor can never develop. Disney clearly wants guests to come that have deeper pockets than the regular average joe given that attendance has stagnated in the past years. And if Disney continues along that path, it could eventually become construed as a place only the rich can go and all other comers can take a hike.

And it could easily easily become viewed as a has been...Disney has not done anything revolutionary in the ride department like its competitors have. NFE is coming yes, but for the most part, there is really is nothing totally new and unique. LM is another dark ride. Mine Train, we'll see with it's swinging cars, but at the end of the day its a family roller coaster...not intense not ground breaking in the least. And then we have a restaurant and new M & G. None of it is new. Even the rides Disney does have...a lot is broken on them with no hope of being fixed in the near future. And "has been" is a reputation Disney does not want.

Are my paragraph the extreme of what could happen? Yes. But I also could easily see it eventually happening should Disney not do something relatively soon to change those perceptions

EDIT: Seriously, s-ex is blocked? I get it's a Disney site but I was referring to the male s-ex
 

marni1971

WDW History nut
Premium Member
Disney's reputation is that of a fantastic place to take the whole family on vacation, Universal is no where near that, not even close.


Hard to be a has been when your doing 5 times more business than your closest competitor, if you can even call them that.



Jimmy Thick-Let them sleep.
I'm not talking about cutesy family vacations or feet through gates. Industry reputation, media perception and ultimately shareholder opinion. 5 times more guests can breed complacency.

Nor are we talking about the "Disney" that Walt built. We're talking about the resort in Orlando used as a corporate cash cow.

I doubt WDW will ever loose it status or reputation for family vacations. What it is in danger of loosing is its reputation as a cutting edge, even exciting destination for repeat guests or demographs that aren't with 2.5 children.
 

Captain Chaos

Well-Known Member
"He got shafted doing things very few men in his position would not have been able to resist"...you have such a lovely view of your own ______. He was married. Cheating on your wife isn't right whether you are a poor person or a rich person. His behavior was disgusting on all levels.

But anyways, Disney does have a reputation that is deeply engrained in American culture yes. But they have a reputation for some things that aren't good (such as what they pay...everyone, and I mean everyone knows it's crap) and the way they are raising ticket prices, it is going to fast become impossible for even some average middle class families to visit the parks for a week. 100$ dollar tickets aren't that far off and if people can't bring their families, that nostalgia factor can never develop. Disney clearly wants guests to come that have deeper pockets than the regular average joe given that attendance has stagnated in the past years. And if Disney continues along that path, it could eventually become construed as a place only the rich can go and all other comers can take a hike.

And it could easily easily become viewed as a has been...Disney has not done anything revolutionary in the ride department like its competitors have. NFE is coming yes, but for the most part, there is really is nothing totally new and unique. LM is another dark ride. Mine Train, we'll see with it's swinging cars, but at the end of the day its a family roller coaster...not intense not ground breaking in the least. And then we have a restaurant and new M & G. None of it is new. Even the rides Disney does have...a lot is broken on them with no hope of being fixed in the near future. And "has been" is a reputation Disney does not want.

Are my paragraph the extreme of what could happen? Yes. But I also could easily see it eventually happening should Disney not do something relatively soon to change those perceptions

EDIT: Seriously, s-ex is blocked? I get it's a Disney site but I was referring to the male s-ex

1. Ignore Jimmy... he is the resident troll... Ignoring him will make him go away

2. He talks out his **** so don't take anything he says serious.. he is only here to start issues, fights, and cause problems... How he hasn't been banned yet is beyond me...

3. Maybe you should say species since Jimmy is NOT part of the male gender... :)
 

nepalostparks

Well-Known Member
... Disney clearly wants guests to come that have deeper pockets than the regular average joe given that attendance has stagnated in the past years. And if Disney continues along that path, it could eventually become construed as a place only the rich can go and all other comers can take a hike. ...

When Walt Disney World opened in 1971, there was Magic Kingdom, Polynesian and Contemporary Resort. (Fort Wilderness did open several weeks later.) The first "moderate" level resort wasn't built until 1988. The first "value" not until 1994.

If you look at it in that light, Disney World at first was really built for the upper class, and only later did Disney take an active approach to courting middle class guests to stay on property. Of course, anyone could come visit from off-site, I understand.

But to those who argue that the golden age is long over, could a correlation be drawn between when Disney started to court the lower budget crowd to stay on property with the perceived decline? Perhaps by focusing more on those "with deeper pockets" the overall experience would be better for those guests in attendance.

Something to consider, anyways.
 
I have no proof of this, but I'm guessing that they won't actually be "trains", anyway. I picture vehicles like Spidey, or Dinosaur, all chained together, encased in a train car shell. This would give each separate "car" freedom of movement that a train wouldn't give... And allow for hightened sensation as the train "flies" along the countryside. Heck, there could even be more than one program, so that not every ride was the same. When all you have are motion simulators and screens, you could vary the journey (a la Star Tours).

I'd love for whylightbulb to give me a "hot" or "cold" on this idea... :drevil:

Obviously if it weren't really a linear "train", there would be many ways to add more vehicles to the track.

Insert obligatory disclaimer about Screamscape below (I happen to enjoy Screamscape by the way).

(Screamscape hasn't got anything right since yada, yada, yada...)

With that out of the way, here is what Screamscape thinks is happening:

(2/29/12) Lets talk a bit more about that Hogwarts Express project today. According to Screamscape sources the transportation ride hardware may be provided by Doppelmayr, (http://www.doppelmayr.com/index.php?id=100&L=3) who recently created the Ocean Express themed funicular transportation system for Ocean Park in Hong Kong that travels through a 1.3 Kilometer long tunnel and through the use of a two train system, it can transport up to 5000 passengers an hour in each direction. Also of interest here is the fact that the inside of these trains were wired up with fake video screens pretending to be glass-ceiling panels for an undersea voyage. Sounds a little familiar?
While the Hogwarts Express wont be a Funicular going up a hill, or even through a tunnel, the company does also make a series of regular cable powered shuttles that transport riders on aerial tramways. You’ll find a few of these in Las Vegas or various airports around the world. Now, the insides of these cable cars will be an entirely different matter, and will appear more like the inside of what I believe is called a “sleeper car”. (Forgive me if I’ve used the wrong term… I’m not train person.) The interior will feature a narrow walkway down one side of the car, with individual doors leading into the separate rooms, each furnished with a pair of face-to-face seating bench seats, with a single large window (ie: video screen) to the outside world on the far wall end. This will be your window into the Wizarding World for the duration of your journey between London and Hogsmeade.

5000 passengers an hour in each direction with just two trains is pretty amazing.
 

Buried20KLeague

Well-Known Member
Insert obligatory disclaimer about Screamscape below (I happen to enjoy Screamscape by the way).

(Screamscape hasn't got anything right since yada, yada, yada...)

With that out of the way, here is what Screamscape thinks is happening:

(2/29/12) Lets talk a bit more about that Hogwarts Express project today. According to Screamscape sources the transportation ride hardware may be provided by Doppelmayr, (http://www.doppelmayr.com/index.php?id=100&L=3) who recently created the Ocean Express themed funicular transportation system for Ocean Park in Hong Kong that travels through a 1.3 Kilometer long tunnel and through the use of a two train system, it can transport up to 5000 passengers an hour in each direction. Also of interest here is the fact that the inside of these trains were wired up with fake video screens pretending to be glass-ceiling panels for an undersea voyage. Sounds a little familiar?
While the Hogwarts Express wont be a Funicular going up a hill, or even through a tunnel, the company does also make a series of regular cable powered shuttles that transport riders on aerial tramways. You’ll find a few of these in Las Vegas or various airports around the world. Now, the insides of these cable cars will be an entirely different matter, and will appear more like the inside of what I believe is called a “sleeper car”. (Forgive me if I’ve used the wrong term… I’m not train person.) The interior will feature a narrow walkway down one side of the car, with individual doors leading into the separate rooms, each furnished with a pair of face-to-face seating bench seats, with a single large window (ie: video screen) to the outside world on the far wall end. This will be your window into the Wizarding World for the duration of your journey between London and Hogsmeade.

5000 passengers an hour in each direction with just two trains is pretty amazing.

Oh, whylighbulb... Care to share if you are feeling "hot" or "cold" right now? :drevil:

:lol:

Edit to add: Boy, think for a second how bad it will blow the illusion for people that have to be evac'd during a shutdown!!! You'll go from a wonderfully themed immersive experience, to them opening a door and standing backstage around warehouses.

I guess that might be how you're evac'd off numerous attractions, come to think of it... I haven't been evac'd off anything. But I'm guessing in most cases, while you are escorted through the "guts" of the attraction, you don't usually actually make it "backstage"... You'd usually exit through the usual attraction exit eventually. If you're stopped somewhere between the two stations, I don't see a way around it!
 

bubbles1812

Well-Known Member
When Walt Disney World opened in 1971, there was Magic Kingdom, Polynesian and Contemporary Resort. (Fort Wilderness did open several weeks later.) The first "moderate" level resort wasn't built until 1988. The first "value" not until 1994.

If you look at it in that light, Disney World at first was really built for the upper class, and only later did Disney take an active approach to courting middle class guests to stay on property. Of course, anyone could come visit from off-site, I understand.

But to those who argue that the golden age is long over, could a correlation be drawn between when Disney started to court the lower budget crowd to stay on property with the perceived decline? Perhaps by focusing more on those "with deeper pockets" the overall experience would be better for those guests in attendance.

Something to consider, anyways.

I'm not sure I agree with you about Disney only being opened for the upper crust when it first opened. Back then it was a lot different. Disney World, even only with two Deluxes, was still affordable for pretty much anybody...they only had one park...that didn't require a week to stay to see everything and prices weren't jacked so that it makes more sense for people to stay for a week than just go for a day. Admission in the very beginning was like what, $3.00 or something like that? Yes I know prices have risen in accordance with inflation, but even back then...a family of 4 paying $12.00 total for admission...I can't imagine most people even back then would have found that bad.

And I don't know if there could be a correlation to when Disney started courting the "lower class" as to when Disney started to decline...I feel like that is way way too big a generalization to make. I mean, when would you want to say Disney even started doing that? I don't think Disney was in decline or starting to decline in the late 80s or early 90s at all and even into the late 90s. And Disney was courting the lower class then. I feel like most of the decline I've seen started in the early 2000s.

I think I'd just find it sad that Disney would make themselves so affordable that people only with deep pockets could enjoy it. Disney was meant, at least I think in the beginning, to be something relatively affordable to all. They are getting away with that. Maybe if they actually did make the guests stay with deeper pockets more enjoyable...but I haven't really seen much effort by them into even wanting to do that. They jack up prices higher and higher and haven't really added much new, NFE not withstanding.

Also @dxer07002...I have noticed that about Jimmy. He makes the most nonsensical and stupid posts I've seen of any member on this site. Most of them just make me laugh because you can't take them seriously due to their absolute stupidity.
 

Todd H

Well-Known Member
Also @dxer07002...I have noticed that about Jimmy. He makes the most nonsensical and stupid posts I've seen of any member on this site. Most of them just make me laugh because you can't take them seriously due to their absolute stupidity.

Just do like the rest of us and put him on ignore.
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
Jimmy Thick is awesome. He always has something to say, he says it in an entertaining manner, and he never insults anybody. He is a gem to this forum.

But to those who argue that the golden age is long over, could a correlation be drawn between when Disney started to court the lower budget crowd to stay on property with the perceived decline? Perhaps by focusing more on those "with deeper pockets" the overall experience would be better for those guests in attendance.

Something to consider, anyways.
In my heart of hearts, I sometimes think this too. Disney is neither high culture, nor a mass destination. Disney parks are a playground for mainstream, middle class America. I sometimes wonder whether WDW hasn't been aiming too low in the audience they are trying to pull.


~ But don't outprice the American middle class or we'll be stuck with the brats from Brazil ~
 

whylightbulb

Well-Known Member
Oh, whylighbulb... Care to share if you are feeling "hot" or "cold" right now? :drevil:

:lol:
Screamscape is pretty close although the projection/media system will be far more advanced than the example Lance gives. During tests people have been getting a bit sick due to the ultra-realism and depth perception. The media actually needs to be created in layers with varying speeds represented based on the speed of the train and sequence. As far as in cabin effects, let's just say that the cabins could get a bit chilly at times for one example.
 

Lee

Adventurer
Screamscape is pretty close although the projection/media system will be far more advanced than the example Lance gives. During tests people have been getting a bit sick due to the ultra-realism and depth perception. The media actually needs to be created in layers with varying speeds represented based on the speed of the train and sequence. As far as in cabin effects, let's just say that the cabins could get a bit chilly at times for one example.

Want. Now.:slurp:
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
Insert obligatory disclaimer about Screamscape below (I happen to enjoy Screamscape by the way).

(Screamscape hasn't got anything right since yada, yada, yada...)

With that out of the way, here is what Screamscape thinks is happening:

(2/29/12) Lets talk a bit more about that Hogwarts Express project today. According to Screamscape sources the transportation ride hardware may be provided by Doppelmayr, (http://www.doppelmayr.com/index.php?id=100&L=3) who recently created the Ocean Express themed funicular transportation system for Ocean Park in Hong Kong that travels through a 1.3 Kilometer long tunnel and through the use of a two train system, it can transport up to 5000 passengers an hour in each direction. Also of interest here is the fact that the inside of these trains were wired up with fake video screens pretending to be glass-ceiling panels for an undersea voyage. Sounds a little familiar?
While the Hogwarts Express wont be a Funicular going up a hill, or even through a tunnel, the company does also make a series of regular cable powered shuttles that transport riders on aerial tramways. You’ll find a few of these in Las Vegas or various airports around the world. Now, the insides of these cable cars will be an entirely different matter, and will appear more like the inside of what I believe is called a “sleeper car”. (Forgive me if I’ve used the wrong term… I’m not train person.) The interior will feature a narrow walkway down one side of the car, with individual doors leading into the separate rooms, each furnished with a pair of face-to-face seating bench seats, with a single large window (ie: video screen) to the outside world on the far wall end. This will be your window into the Wizarding World for the duration of your journey between London and Hogsmeade.

5000 passengers an hour in each direction with just two trains is pretty amazing.


Ah, I've been on the Ocean Express and it is a REALLY nice attraction for Ocean Park which is much more of a amusement park than theme park. I can post some pics later
 

Kiff

Member
Screamscape is pretty close although the projection/media system will be far more advanced than the example Lance gives. During tests people have been getting a bit sick due to the ultra-realism and depth perception. The media actually needs to be created in layers with varying speeds represented based on the speed of the train and sequence. As far as in cabin effects, let's just say that the cabins could get a bit chilly at times for one example.

*drool*

That is all.

:)
 

Buried20KLeague

Well-Known Member
Screamscape is pretty close although the projection/media system will be far more advanced than the example Lance gives. During tests people have been getting a bit sick due to the ultra-realism and depth perception. The media actually needs to be created in layers with varying speeds represented based on the speed of the train and sequence. As far as in cabin effects, let's just say that the cabins could get a bit chilly at times for one example.

Well, as one who can tend to get a bit motion-sick in certain (but definitely not all) ride situatons, I'd like to offer my services as a test subject. I've got my pen ready to sign the NDA as we speak.

Thank you in advance. :wave:
 

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