NuCitra Brainstorming Thread - Project Seven: A Splash of Placemaking

[Pi on my Cake]

Alright, so it looks like my pitch may be slightly too far reaching, but I'll still share it anyways

Basically, abolish Frontierland. Split it up into three areas. Add Liberty Square to that. Make it all "Rivers of America" as one large land with each section representing a different region of the US. Everything East of Splash could remain pretty much fully untouched other than some updated signage. Thunder Mountain could receive some relatively minor tweaks to base it around Red Rock Canyon in Oregon (with the Oregon gold rush being such a famous thing, only minor tweaks would be needed)

Then make a small Bayou themed section around Splash. Which would be our main focus. Add a beignet cart housed in a fallen tree next to Spalsh in the space between that and Pirates. and Lewis & Clark games (possibly a whole story as a framing device for the entire Rivers of America, maybe specific stories for each land with the Bayou being the only one we full explore)

Of course, this whole thing might be too much

 

[JokersWild]

Looks amazing, but it’s probably too much. We should just be focusing on the area around Splash.

I have a setting pitch. I might to try type it up on my phone during lunch, but if not I’ll have it up when I get home from work.

 

[Pi on my Cake]

Looks amazing, but it’s probably too much. We should just be focusing on the area around Splash.

Yeah, even if 95 percent of the changes outside the area around Splash are just new names I feel like what the judges said while I was typing that up make it clear to scale back

 

[Pi on my Cake]

So, something to remember when discussing any kind of retheme for Pecos Bill is that the restaurant stretches really far

Country Bear Jamboree exits into it. The dining rooms stretch all the way down to the corner and then goes down a bit farther. Then it smoothly transitions into a dining room for the seasonal food stand "Tortuga Tavern." So, honestly it is a bit bigger and stretches further down than the blue blob on the map.

If we retheme that, we gotta be careful because it covers like a third of Frontierland's main pathway. So, changes have to keep that in mind. Not against making that Tiana's Place. Just gotta be careful to not completely cut Frontierland in half.

 

[PerGron]

So, something to remember when discussing any kind of retheme for Pecos Bill is that the restaurant stretches really far

Country Bear Jamboree exits into it. The dining rooms stretch all the way down to the corner and then goes down a bit farther. Then it smoothly transitions into a dining room for the seasonal food stand "Tortuga Tavern." So, honestly it is a bit bigger and stretches further down than the blue blob on the map.

View attachment 481897

If we retheme that, we gotta be careful because it covers like a third of Frontierland's main pathway. So, changes have to keep that in mind. Not against making that Tiana's Place. Just gotta be careful to not completely cut Frontierland in half.

Honestly, I think we could take part of Pecos Bill as the entrance to Tiana's place, but make most of the actual restaurant take over the space from Tortuga Tavern since it's rarely open anyway, that way Pecos Bill stays mostly the same, just losing a bit of indoor seating

 

[NigelChanning]

This project is really about how big we want to go.

 

[Pi on my Cake]

Honestly, I think we could take part of Pecos Bill as the entrance to Tiana's place, but make most of the actual restaurant take over the space from Tortuga Tavern since it's rarely open anyway, that way Pecos Bill stays mostly the same, just losing a bit of indoor seating

I like that! Did some quick measurements on Scribblemaps for the area

If we expand out into the current path, we would have as much space as the average Table Service meaning we could do a pretty decent Tiana's Place there. We would need to cut into the trees to expand the pathway then.

Which means we'd need to slide back the tiny building that houses the start of the Adventureland pirates game, BUT that could give us the oppurtunity to retheme it from a generic Pirate Shack in Tia Dalma's shack transitioning smoothly from Pirates of the Caribbean to the Bayou.

The food stand there (which has delicious waffle fires which should be added to Pecos Bill, but that's a different discussion lol) can be easily moved back as it is essentially a food & wine style booth. I'd suggest that as an easy walk up place for Beignets.

Also, I've been team "let's dry dock the riverboat, there's nothing to see on WDW's Rivers of America anyways" for a while. But now it would have an added bonus of sorta hiding Frog Mountain from sightlines other than when you walk by it. Plus, it could house a PatF meet and Greet on one level, an observation deck on the top, and museum of some sort on the other levels. Perhaps a small museum of early American folklore such as the original Brer tales and Mark Twain. Or a museum on Lewis and Clark. The museum and riverboat could thematically and visually tie the Bayou to Frontierland. Plus, like I said, could hide some of the more fantastical and clashing sightlines of Frog Mountain.

The old riverboat dock can either be used for a much cooler boat ride like the Columbia. OR a new shop for Liberty Square that can loosely tie into the recently opened Wendigo E-Ticket. Doesn't matter what since Liberty Square isn't our problem anymore.

The Briar Patch gift shop is not at the exit of the ride and there is a gift shop already at the exit. Briar Patch's only realy value is being a calm, relaxing place. It could be replaced with a Lewis & Clark cabin which could be a quiet, rustic place for some rest. It could also house the start of our interactive game and have some subtle environmental storytelling to tell their history.

Then Frog Mountain and the exit gift shop get PatF themed and we good.


Again, these are all more or less just quick thoughts. Feel free to pick and choose or even ignore all of them lol

 

[JokersWild]

Ok, I still think that you guys are stretching out way too far. Pecos Bills is entirely detached from the Splash area (the Splash Zone, if you will) and having this seep into Caribbean Plaza is, frankly, even worse especially when the architecture of the area creates a very clear divide between the themes. Stretching this subland out this far is really just going to muddle and lessen the lands' surrounding themes.

Anyway, this is my story pitch for the Splash Zone. My initial intention is to have this take up all the land directly in front of Splash, stretching over to where the fences for BTMRR are, so basically the footprint that Splash and its' like-themed elements takes up currently.
I broke a bit from the Lewis and Clark idea mainly to open up the story a bit and allow us to hopefully give the area a bit of a richer theme/ detail.

Louisiana, 1850s. Hidden away from the hustle of New Orleans and the bustle of the plantation houses lies La Porte D'entree à L'Ouest (The Gateway to the West), a small settlement buried deep within the Louisiana bayou. Initially established during the Seven Years War as a smugglers outpost, La Porte, as it is colloquially known, legitimized itself following the American Revolution, becoming one of the largest and most popular trading posts on the bayou. Known for their hospitality, La Porte's citizens are always waiting to welcome weary travelers, whether they arrive by river boat, raft, train, or on foot, with open arms and a warm bowl of gumbo.

Of course, La Porte is not all what it seems. Strange sounds have begun to echo from deep within Frog Mountain, prompting residents and travelers alike to brave the mountain's treacherous waterways to see just what is going on over there. Then, of course, there are the rumors of the Lewis and Clark treasure - hidden deep within the bayou during the pair's legendary expedition, but that old map maker's just a con man.

-------------------------------
​

Obviously we don't have to do this, but these are my initial thoughts. It's simple, but it still lets us get pretty deep into detail for such a small space.

 

[Pi on my Cake]

Ok, I still think that you guys are stretching out way too far. Pecos Bills is entirely detached from the Splash area (the Splash Zone, if you will) and having this seep into Caribbean Plaza is, frankly, even worse especially when the architecture of the area creates a very clear divide between the themes. Stretching this subland out this far is really just going to muddle and lessen the lands' surrounding themes.

Everything I pitched that wasn't directly connected to Splash was for the loosely themed transition area with the trees between Caribbean Plaza and Splash, which is a space that is roughly the size of the outdoor queue of Haunted Mansion. Nothing past the archway into the plaza. And all together with what is connected to Splash roughly the same size of Critter Country which the other team is redoing if you measure both areas on scribblemaps.

But I understand wanting to scale it back even further. Keep it real small and hyper focused on Splash and it's plaza. I'm never against scaling things down. One of my all time favorite projects I've worked on was a small light display in a tunnel

Ok, I still think that you guys are stretching out way too far. Pecos Bills is entirely detached from the Splash area (the Splash Zone, if you will) and having this seep into Caribbean Plaza is, frankly, even worse especially when the architecture of the area creates a very clear divide between the themes. Stretching this subland out this far is really just going to muddle and lessen the lands' surrounding themes.

Anyway, this is my story pitch for the Splash Zone. My initial intention is to have this take up all the land directly in front of Splash, stretching over to where the fences for BTMRR are, so basically the footprint that Splash and its' like-themed elements takes up currently.
I broke a bit from the Lewis and Clark idea mainly to open up the story a bit and allow us to hopefully give the area a bit of a richer theme/ detail.

Louisiana, 1850s. Hidden away from the hustle of New Orleans and the bustle of the plantation houses lies La Porte D'entree à L'Ouest (The Gateway to the West), a small settlement buried deep within the Louisiana bayou. Initially established during the Seven Years War as a smugglers outpost, La Porte, as it is colloquially known, legitimized itself following the American Revolution, becoming one of the largest and most popular trading posts on the bayou. Known for their hospitality, La Porte's citizens are always waiting to welcome weary travelers, whether they arrive by river boat, raft, train, or on foot, with open arms and a warm bowl of gumbo.

Of course, La Porte is not all what it seems. Strange sounds have begun to echo from deep within Frog Mountain, prompting residents and travelers alike to brave the mountain's treacherous waterways to see just what is going on over there. Then, of course, there are the rumors of the Lewis and Clark treasure - hidden deep within the bayou during the pair's legendary expedition, but that old map maker's just a con man.

-------------------------------
​

Obviously we don't have to do this, but these are my initial thoughts. It's simple, but it still lets us get pretty deep into detail for such a small space.

That Louisiana trading post sounds like a good concept! Really fits the rustic feeling of Frontierland in WDW. I'd honestly say "rustic" is more the theme that ties it all together anyways since Country Bears and Splash never really fit into the Old West and Cowboys theming yet never felt out of place in Frontierland.

 

[Pi on my Cake]

One last thought before bed, maybe we shouldn't base too much around real historical figures? Especially since it has been proven that non-controversial people can become controversial in just a few years time. Not wanting to start any political discussions of whether this is justified or right or wrong or anything (I'll gladly discuss things in a private chat or a different area if you want, but not looking to start it here), but statues of people like George Washington are being torn down now. 20 years ago Christopher Columbus was considered a hero by most people.

Perhaps fictional explorers inspired by Lewis and Clark would be a better idea than the actual Lewis and Clark. Plus, gives us more freedom for developing our own original story. Plus plus, modern Magic Kingdom doesn't feel like the place for actual historical education and feels more like a place seperated from real life. Epcot is more the place for real history.

Of course, these are just some quick thoughts written while staying up way too late. So, if we want actual Lewis and Clark go for it! I can't see much controversial about them. The Native American community has mixed-negative opinions about him opening the way to western expansion of America. But, for understandable and justifiable reasons, Native Americans aren't exactly cool with nearly anything from American history in the 1700s, 1800s, and early 1900s. Including nearly everything Frontierland and Liberty Square are based on. I'm not seeing any complaints about them that are bad enough to stop Disney from using Lewis and Clark specifically though.

But fictional characters inspired by them might be more interesting and a more future proof bet. Again though, I don't see anything wrong with Lewis and Clark from my quick 4 AM research trip. And this is just armchair imaginnering, not an actual international company spending millions of dollars. So, our standars are different lol

 

[JokersWild]

Everything I pitched that wasn't directly connected to Splash was for the loosely themed transition area with the trees between Caribbean Plaza and Splash, which is a space that is roughly the size of the outdoor queue of Haunted Mansion. Nothing past the archway into the plaza. And all together with what is connected to Splash roughly the same size of Critter Country which the other team is redoing if you measure both areas on scribblemaps.

But I understand wanting to scale it back even further. Keep it real small and hyper focused on Splash and it's plaza. I'm never against scaling things down. One of my all time favorite projects I've worked on was a small light display in a tunnel


That Louisiana trading post sounds like a good concept! Really fits the rustic feeling of Frontierland in WDW. I'd honestly say "rustic" is more the theme that ties it all together anyways since Country Bears and Splash never really fit into the Old West and Cowboys theming yet never felt out of place in Frontierland.

I was referring more to the people who wanted to expanded into Tortuga Tavern.

One last thought before bed, maybe we shouldn't base too much around real historical figures? Especially since it has been proven that non-controversial people can become controversial in just a few years time. Not wanting to start any political discussions of whether this is justified or right or wrong or anything (I'll gladly discuss things in a private chat or a different area if you want, but not looking to start it here), but statues of people like George Washington are being torn down now. 20 years ago Christopher Columbus was considered a hero by most people.

Perhaps fictional explorers inspired by Lewis and Clark would be a better idea than the actual Lewis and Clark. Plus, gives us more freedom for developing our own original story. Plus plus, modern Magic Kingdom doesn't feel like the place for actual historical education and feels more like a place seperated from real life. Epcot is more the place for real history.

Of course, these are just some quick thoughts written while staying up way too late. So, if we want actual Lewis and Clark go for it! I can't see much controversial about them. The Native American community has mixed-negative opinions about him opening the way to western expansion of America. But, for understandable and justifiable reasons, Native Americans aren't exactly cool with nearly anything from American history in the 1700s, 1800s, and early 1900s. Including nearly everything Frontierland and Liberty Square are based on. I'm not seeing any complaints about them that are bad enough to stop Disney from using Lewis and Clark specifically though.

But fictional characters inspired by them might be more interesting and a more future proof bet. Again though, I don't see anything wrong with Lewis and Clark from my quick 4 AM research trip. And this is just armchair imaginnering, not an actual international company spending millions of dollars. So, our standars are different lol

We could always go full theme park nerd fan fic and do Jean Lafitte. At least if he becomes problematic he's a pirate so he was a bad guy anyway.

 

[goofyyukyuk]

One last thought before bed, maybe we shouldn't base too much around real historical figures? Especially since it has been proven that non-controversial people can become controversial in just a few years time. Not wanting to start any political discussions of whether this is justified or right or wrong or anything (I'll gladly discuss things in a private chat or a different area if you want, but not looking to start it here), but statues of people like George Washington are being torn down now. 20 years ago Christopher Columbus was considered a hero by most people.

Perhaps fictional explorers inspired by Lewis and Clark would be a better idea than the actual Lewis and Clark. Plus, gives us more freedom for developing our own original story. Plus plus, modern Magic Kingdom doesn't feel like the place for actual historical education and feels more like a place seperated from real life. Epcot is more the place for real history.

Of course, these are just some quick thoughts written while staying up way too late. So, if we want actual Lewis and Clark go for it! I can't see much controversial about them. The Native American community has mixed-negative opinions about him opening the way to western expansion of America. But, for understandable and justifiable reasons, Native Americans aren't exactly cool with nearly anything from American history in the 1700s, 1800s, and early 1900s. Including nearly everything Frontierland and Liberty Square are based on. I'm not seeing any complaints about them that are bad enough to stop Disney from using Lewis and Clark specifically though.

But fictional characters inspired by them might be more interesting and a more future proof bet. Again though, I don't see anything wrong with Lewis and Clark from my quick 4 AM research trip. And this is just armchair imaginnering, not an actual international company spending millions of dollars. So, our standars are different lol

That's a really good point... I think coming up with our own story would also be better from a creativity standpoint. Something like jokers' idea maybe? Of course, something else to consider is that a lot of Joe Normals don't care that much about land backstories. That's why the Tomorrowland backstory doesn't matter or make as much sense as it used to. I think one of the most, if not the most, important aspect for us to focus on is the aesthetics and visuals of the area. Transitions are something that make the Disney Parks so unique, and that's something we should definitely be keying in on. Secondary to that should be the backstory. I think we should still put the effort into developing a fully fleshed out backstory, but I like the idea of having an almost "secret" backstory that can be uncovered by the guests that doesn't need to be known to have an appreciation for the cohesiveness of the land.

 

[NigelChanning]

I kinda like the idea of using Jean Lafitte. It gives a better transition from Adventureland to the Bayou of the Splash Zone. Then, we focus on a transition between the Splash Zone and the rest of Frontierland (Lewis and Clark)

 

[goofyyukyuk]

So I just realized that the project is due Friday night... even though it’s a smaller project, I want us to have as much time as possible to work on our different aspects of the project, so if anybody has any ideas that haven’t already been mentioned, please try to have those by tonight! We can vote tonight on what to move forward with and divvy up jobs.

 

[Pi on my Cake]

So I just realized that the project is due Friday night... even though it’s a smaller project, I want us to have as much time as possible to work on our different aspects of the project, so if anybody has any ideas that haven’t already been mentioned, please try to have those by tonight! We can vote tonight on what to move forward with and divvy up jobs.

Fully agree! (are you PM btw? I wasn't sure if I missed us picking one? You got my full support!)

We could always go full theme park nerd fan fic and do Jean Lafitte. At least if he becomes problematic he's a pirate so he was a bad guy anyway.

If we do Jean Lafitte, we could easily give Offhand a fun shoutout lol. Easy enough to swap out the description and video title. More time and some fake thumbnails for suggested videos won't be hard to do to add some extra fun and Easter Eggs

I think one of the most, if not the most, important aspect for us to focus on is the aesthetics and visuals of the area. Transitions are something that make the Disney Parks so unique, and that's something we should definitely be keying in on.

Transitions are definitely key here. Some ideas I've seen so far of thematic, story, or visual transitions:

• Frog to Pirates
  • Jean Lafitte - Thematic/Story
  • Tia Dalma Shack - Visual
• Frog to Frontier
  • Louisiana Purchase - Thematic/story
  • Moved Riverboat - Visual
  • Lewis and Clark (or original characters inspired by them) - Thematic/story
  • La Porte (Smugglers outpost turned gateway to the west) - Visual/thematic/story

I think La Porte is our best bet so far. Jean Lafitte set up this Smugglers Outpost in the bayou years ago, but Clewis and Lark (fictional characters inspired by Lewis and Clark with really clever names) have transitioned it into a settlement for explorers and travelers headed out west to explore. Nice, simple, easy to match the rustic tone of Frontierland. Good visual and thematic transitions.

The biggest problem (and this is more an issue with the real life project) is that Frog Mountain is directly in between Thunder and the rest of frontier. But I'm not sure there is any way to really avoid going from Arizona to Louisiana and then back to Arizona as you walk around the Rivers of America. But La Porte seems like a good way to make that not feel too jarring

 

[goofyyukyuk]

Fully agree! (are you PM btw? I wasn't sure if I missed us picking one? You got my full support!)

Jokers nominated me and nobody else volunteered, so I guess haha? Works for me though!
I like your ideas a lot!

 

[TheOriginalTiki]

Whoops, meant for Hype thread

 

[JokersWild]

The biggest problem (and this is more an issue with the real life project) is that Frog Mountain is directly in between Thunder and the rest of frontier. But I'm not sure there is any way to really avoid going from Arizona to Louisiana and then back to Arizona as you walk around the Rivers of America. But La Porte seems like a good way to make that not feel too jarring

That's my concern too, but there isn't much we can do about it unfortunately. At least the corridor that bridges PoTC and Splash can act as a sort of Florida to Louisiana thing if you ignore the rest of Frontierland.

 

[JokersWild]

Also if we’re having Lafitte found La Porte, we’ll have to make its’ founding later as he was born 30~ years after the Seven Years War.

Not that it matters. I just wanted to mention.

 

[Pi on my Cake]

Also if we’re having Lafitte found La Porte, we’ll have to make its’ founding later as he was born 30~ years after the Seven Years War.

Not that it matters. I just wanted to mention.

That is an excellent point. I'll admit I didn't really check the timelines and instead just started putting pieces I've seen mentioned together for that suggestion haha.

We could easily make Lafitte just one of many who have used the outpost over the years instead of the founder. Or change the founding story