Not good but saw it coming

RonAnnArbor

Well-Known Member
When you look at deaths on a ride (2) compared to number of rides given (hundreds of thousands) the risks and statistics are very miniscule. Not to minimize the sadness of the event.

Still -- a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, over the course of 4 years of marching band in college, with 250 band members - we had two kids that had heart attacks. One died. A much smaller percentage. Still sad. Nobody shut down marching band.

You can NEVER predict a pre-exisiting condition unless you accidently uncover it while testing something else. That's why 19 year olds can have strokes; and why heart attacks happen when some pre-existing conditions are revealed in stressful situations.

Sad - but it is not going to change anything about the ride or the warnings as they stand. That is why Disney has millions upon millions of dollars of insurance on their parks. These things do, unfortunately, happen.
 

mousermerf

Account Suspended
A note on "sought medical attention"

This meant an ambulance was called. Not that a guest went to first aid, but rather that a CM, a guest, or someone called 911.

How bad does it need to be for folks to call 911? In my mind, it'd be more than just a little woozy or barfing after a ride.

And I wonder if the ambulance calls noted were just those that reported directly to M:S. It's true that surrounding attractions often have to call for guests who don't improve or get worse after they leave M:S. They leave thinking it's jsut nausea and will get better but then start feeling worse and worse.

It's not particularly common for an attraction to request an ambulance, certainly not every 5 days.

I do know the number of ambulance calls typically directly relates to the number of guests in a park. Easter Sunday one year there was call after call - child fell at the monorail station, scraped knee at Imagination, slipped on the dock at Land, Energy host walked into an automatic door, etc.. But these are usually less than a once a month occurance.

Test Track has to make calls frequently for evac assistance, sometimes SSE too. For a while (back in the 80's), SSE has issues with its loading belt catching clothes and such, but it seems to have improved.

Typically if a guest gets sick, feels ill, etc, they get sent off to First Aid to lay down, have a tylenol and sip on a powerade/water mixture, sometimes to get a bandaid.

Having to call an ambulance so often says to me that something is wrong.
 

jaredliu

Active Member
GothMickey said:
I want to post one last comment then I am done with this thread because this is a no win situation for whatever side you are on... I just want you all to really think hard about this.. I am not arguing anything here.. Just trying to analyze something... This is for all of you who claim M:S did not cause the death or was a reason for the death of the 4 year old boy:

The $100 million ride, one of Disney World's most popular, was also closed in June after the death of a 4-year-old boy who passed out while aboard. An autopsy concluded he died of a heart condition that a medical examiner said can cause sudden death in stressful situations.

This is a direct quote from the article on CNN.COM. Let me analyze this...

A 4 year old boy dies on M:S in June 2005. A Medical Examiner states the boy had a pre-existing heart condition. The M.E. also states the condition can cause sudden death is stressful situations... OK, here we go...

1. A person can conclude, after this statement from the M.E. that the pre-existing condition was the cause of death.
2. The condition was aggravated by a stressful situation/event correct?? This was the words of the Medical Examiner not me...
3. The boy was on M:S, passed out on M:S.. Not 30 minutes later, not before he rode M:S, but while on M:S...
4. One could conclude that the stressful situation the boy was in was a fear of this attraction or the g-forces he was experiencing on his 4 year old body.. Thus triggering the heart condition causing his death..

I think it is a fair assumption, after analyzing it this way that M:S was the cause of the condition becoming aggravated thus killing this child... Had he been on say Space Mountain and this happened to him one can conclude the stress situation he faced on Space Mountain caused the condition to kill him..

yes.. M:S was a direct cause of the death of this boy... Just as any attraction that put the boy in a stressful situation would have or could have done.. But the fact is he was on M:S...

I just made my point about M:S.. had a factual statement to back me up.. Therefore, I exit this thread satisfied I proved my point.
I don't think you proved anything.
 

Disney-bound99

New Member
so this makes how many people????:(

I know that this ride was waaaaaaaaaaaay to much money to make. I wonder, if they might take it down b/c of the deaths in a few years time:confused:
 

mitchjs

Member
I hate to put my 2cents in on this thread, but what the hell...

1st, in 1997 my daughter was 6 and was in a bad car crash, and was in a coma for week+, at that time i didnt know if she would make it...
so i know about personal pain, NOT Loss, but it was bad not knowing...
anyway...

we went to wdw, and rode MS at least twice in a row, we loved it, and it was not as intense as one would think, and my daughter rides that gavitron thing at local fairs (i dont), anyway... my mom who is mid 50s (sorry mom) also road it, and agreed it isnt that bad, she felt the warning signs actually made it mentally worse, making it sound like its really bad...

i think its one of the cleaverist(sp) rides out there...

now people die every day, its VERY sad on a one-one basis, but death is very much a part of life, hell its one of the few things we have in common. (i guess taxes too, i know old joke). if you need to understand more...
i sugest reading the lyrics tor Rush's Roll The Bones song....

Why Does It Happen, Because It Happens.... Roll the bones...

i hope disney doesnt do anything, other then settle what has to be settled with the family. I hate monetary settlements, where no real fault is present... just really makes things worse in a BIG picture. ofcourse i dont know and dont think anyone here knows FULLY what happend, only the result. We might learn, like the little boy in PA, what happend later.

ps. my daugter is doing great, and were in wdw may24-27th and will ride MS

one thing to think about, how many people flew in airplane in the world yesterday? how many died when the plane crashed?

quick answer alot, and 0

how many people drove in their cars yesterday? how many died?

quick answer alot, and alot (aprox 130 a day in us)

technically thats still good odds...
i havent died in a car crash, and i have been here for about 9937 days or so, give or take...


Mitch
 

csaribay

Member
I've briefly gone over these thirty pages, and I've come to my own conclusions. I have great sympathy for the family in this time of sorrow, but at the same time, the likelihood of them seeing this post or thread is relatively remote at best.

That having been said:

  • You all are nuts for arguing over what little information was available. Discuss, but don't argue.
  • M:S could very well have aggravated a pre-exisiting condition, but there's no way of knowing until full facts are released. It is without saying however, that it's highly likely that this indeed is the case (G forces can cause harm if you are exposed to them for an extended period of time, but in the little time you spend on the attraction, the most the you could suffer from is a spell of motion sickness). Unless this woman was physically harmed (ie: blunt trauma), a pre-exisitng condition aggravated by the ride is a likely cause of death (indirectly implicating Disney and M:S), or, neither (M:S and Disney are completely irrelevant). Blunt trauma is virtually ruled out, as evidenced by the ride reopening, unmodified from the condition it has been running in since its inception.
  • Disney will not remove a $100 million attraction. People calling for this possibility are being absurd- of the million of people who have rode the attraction, twelve have been hospitalized (mostly for observation), including two have unfortunately died soon after their ride experience. One, who's condition was clearly aggravated by the ride (but could have been aggravated by something as simple as watching a scary movie on TV), the other of which whom we just don't know about yet. Just because you do not like an attraction does not mean you call for its' removal, especially at an opportune moment like this.
  • Average guests will not be affected by this, as it simply appears to be an isolated case. Disney may tone down the ride, but only as a response to the charging of negative propaganda spreaders who seek the outright removal of this attraction. I'm personally not going to let this propaganda continue to proliferate without my 2¢ added, especially given that the facts aren't out yet. If a backlash is adequately called for due to legitimate reasons (a direct tie to the ride, in this case), then I'm all for it. At this point however, it seems that those who want the ride gone are simply taking good (not to be confused with cheap) shots. Disney's didn't make this ride with intent to make it a deathtrap, and anyone likening it to one is off their kicker. Disney vowed to make an authentic experience for guests: and this is what they have accomplished. With so many wanting to lift off into space, this is the closest most will get.

That's my thoughts. Also, the thread title probably should be changed to be less.. generic and more specific.
 

LPK

Member
How do we know the boy was not terrified of M:S which caused him to pass out? We could be blaming M:S when for all we know this boy was vulnerable to the ride. Who's fault would it be then?
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
mousermerf said:
A note on "sought medical attention"

This meant an ambulance was called. Not that a guest went to first aid, but rather that a CM, a guest, or someone called 911.

How bad does it need to be for folks to call 911? In my mind, it'd be more than just a little woozy or barfing after a ride. .
I could be wrong but I think with regards to M:S cast members are erring on the side of caution. If you gave me the choice of explaining why I called 911 when it was not necessary or explaining why I did not call 911 when it was necessary, I'll take the first choice every time.
 

MickeyTigg

New Member
At Disney, Mission: Space spurs most complaints

Reports of injury, illness top other resort rides

Scott Powers and Beth Kassab
Orlando Sentinel

April 14, 2006

Even before a second tourist died this week, Mission: Space was emerging as Walt Disney World's most hazardous ride, with more than twice as many reported illnesses and injuries as any other Disney attraction.

Tragedy struck the Epcot ride for the second time when Hiltrud Blümel, 49, of Schmitten, Germany, died Wednesday, a day after she fell ill following a spin on the spaceflight simulator. A 4-year-old boy, Daudi Bamuwamye, died in June after the ride.

Blümel's death renewed questions about the safety of the $100 million attraction that simulates a rocket blastoff and landing.

But plenty of people were eager to experience the ride, which reopened Thursday morning after an inspection late Wednesday by Disney and state officials. Many of the visitors did not know a tourist had died the day before.

Alex Espinoza, 17, rode Mission: Space four times and wasn't worried.

"My voice is destroyed from yelling all day," said Espinoza, who was on a trip with his high-school band from Ohio. "It was really, really fun. They warn you numerous times before you get on the ride. We even had a lady step out before we got on because she was just like, 'I can't do this.' "

In addition to the two deaths in the past 10 months, 10 people have reported serious illnesses or injuries since the ride opened in the summer of 2003, according to reports Disney filed with the Florida Bureau of Fair Rides Inspections. That's the worst record of all the Disney attractions and doesn't include more than 130 other Mission: Space riders who sought medical attention, according to ambulance records.

Second-worst were Space Mountain at Magic Kingdom and the wave pool at Typhoon Lagoon. Each had reported one death and four serious injuries or illnesses since 2003, according to state records.

On Mission: Space, riders are met with 13 signs warning of motion sickness, dark and enclosed spaces and spinning.

Just before people are loaded into the ride capsules, they are shown a video explaining the ride and are again given a chance to exit the line.

All of the warning signs and the video are in English, though Epcot brochures are available in multiple languages at the park's entrance. The brochures briefly describe Mission: Space as the "most thrilling attraction in Disney history" and warn that it may cause motion sickness.

"As with any thrill attraction, Mission: Space is not for all guests," said Disney spokeswoman Kim Prunty.

Prunty said Thursday that no changes have been made to the ride since the Pennsylvania boy's death last summer, and no further review is planned.

There also has been no move to post the warning signs in different languages, she said, but those issues are often reviewed.

A ride worker first called 911 to report Blumel's illness at 1:19 p.m. Tuesday, saying that "she seems pretty bad" but was alert. The ambulance arrived 12 minutes later, and she reached Florida Hospital Celebration Health at 2:04. She died Wednesday.

The Orange County Medical Examiner is expected to perform an autopsy on Blumel today.

Blümel's family asked Disney not to release any information, though Disney reportedly told state authorities that she may have suffered from high blood pressure and other health problems, according to one state source.

Robert A. Samartin, a Tampa attorney representing Daudi's family, said their "hearts go out to the family" of Blümel.

"They certainly understand how they can go from having a wonderful family vacation to just horror," Samartin said. "It's very tragic."

Daudi's death was eventually attributed to a previously undetected heart condition.

Since its start, Mission: Space has developed a troubling reputation for making some people sick. A few months after it opened, it became the only Disney ride offering motion-sickness bags.

The nonfatal incidents reported to the state included three men and a woman who all complained of chest pains and one man who fainted.

Still, millions of people have ridden Mission: Space in three years, and many rave about it as one of the park's top thrills.

Not everyone who gets sick makes a formal complaint.

Paul Borne, 57, a Norfolk, Mass., sales representative, didn't but said he wished he had, after getting sick following a Feb. 28 spin on Mission: Space.

He said he left dizzy, then developed a bad headache that night. The next morning, on the plane home he got sick, tried to head for the lavatory and passed out in the aisle. The flight crew put him on oxygen. When he tried to get up later, he passed out again, and after they landed an ambulance took him straight to a hospital, he said.

After two days of tests the doctors agreed with his assumption that the ride probably was to blame, he said.

"The ride itself? It was wild. It was dizzy. They had puke bags. I would never have gotten on it if I knew it had puke bags. They give you warnings and stuff, but all the rides have warnings," Borne said. "This thing, they gotta close it down."

Mission: Space uses centrifugal force, video and other special effects to make riders feel as if they are in a spaceship blasting off, traveling to Mars and landing. Riders experience four periods, of up to 20 seconds each, when the G-force ranges between 1.6 and 2.3. A G-force of 2 is twice that of gravity.

Under Florida law, Walt Disney World, Universal Orlando, SeaWorld Orlando and Busch Gardens Tampa Bay are responsible for their own ride safety, with no direct state oversight. Bureau of Fair Rides inspectors confer with the theme-park-ride officials annually but only inspect rides when invited.

Terence McElroy, spokesman for the state bureau, described Wednesday night's inspection as "top to bottom."

"Now understand, we don't regulate them. We're not experts on that ride. We don't routinely look at it. So their engineers and safety personnel and inspectors were the ones who actually did it. We did observe that. There did not appear to be anything, to us, that appeared to be out of the ordinary," McElroy said.

Disney officials pride themselves on having what they consider the best ride engineers, inspectors and safety authorities in the country.

However, that doesn't bring much comfort to advocates of public ride inspections such as Kathy Fackler, founder and president of an organization called SaferParks, which pushed for and got California oversight of theme-park-ride safety in 1999.

"All we're asking for is someone who doesn't have huge liability to step in and conduct an independent investigation, and let the public know," she said.

The lines for Mission: Space on Thursday -- in the midst of the busy Easter vacation season -- were much shorter than those at Epcot's other two big rides, Soarin' and Test Track.

One family debated whether to go on.

"We knew it was one of the most popular rides, and I heard about one person who died on it," said Darrell Lipski, who was vacationing from Peoria, Ill., with his wife, Lynette, and their three sons.

Lynette Lipski added, "One person we know went on it and was sick all day."

The couple were unsure whether they would let their family ride, especially their 7-year-old.

"I don't think we want to put him on it," Lynette Lipski said.
 

Legacy

Well-Known Member
mousermerf said:
A note on "sought medical attention"

This meant an ambulance was called. Not that a guest went to first aid, but rather that a CM, a guest, or someone called 911.

How bad does it need to be for folks to call 911? In my mind, it'd be more than just a little woozy or barfing after a ride.

And I wonder if the ambulance calls noted were just those that reported directly to M:S. It's true that surrounding attractions often have to call for guests who don't improve or get worse after they leave M:S. They leave thinking it's jsut nausea and will get better but then start feeling worse and worse.

It's not particularly common for an attraction to request an ambulance, certainly not every 5 days.

I do know the number of ambulance calls typically directly relates to the number of guests in a park. Easter Sunday one year there was call after call - child fell at the monorail station, scraped knee at Imagination, slipped on the dock at Land, Energy host walked into an automatic door, etc.. But these are usually less than a once a month occurance.

Test Track has to make calls frequently for evac assistance, sometimes SSE too. For a while (back in the 80's), SSE has issues with its loading belt catching clothes and such, but it seems to have improved.

Typically if a guest gets sick, feels ill, etc, they get sent off to First Aid to lay down, have a tylenol and sip on a powerade/water mixture, sometimes to get a bandaid.

Having to call an ambulance so often says to me that something is wrong.
Hate to disagree with you on this point, merf... but not everyone has that way of thinking. Some people flat out refuse medical attention, others will panic and call 911 if they stub their toe. It's all a personal preference thing. And throw in the fact that a great majority of guests carry cell-phones with them wherever they go, and that most don't realize that a first-aid station even exists, you are going to have an inflated amount of 911 calls.

Want proof? I'll recount a story that one of my combat medic buddies told me. Two people came in in the hospital one day. One was a Soldier who had been hit by an IED. Burns, scraps, part of his hand was melted... fun stuff. The second guy was a in a bathtub full of water that was too hot for too long. Proceedure is to ask the "Pain Scale" question... on a scale of 1-10.

The Soldier who had been blown-up said he was at about a four. The guy with some minor burns said 14.

It's all in the person needing the assistance.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
TurnipHead said:
Wow we have 30 pages of the same arguements....:rolleyes:

30? I'd say 100's if you add all the death threads that come up each and every time this (a death) happens. You could take this thread, and one from the last M:S death, strip the headers/dates, and names, and I bet you ten Disney Dollars you couldn't tell the difference.

AEfx
 

GothMickey

Active Member
TiggerRPh said:
Reports of injury, illness top other resort rides

Scott Powers and Beth Kassab
Orlando Sentinel

April 14, 2006

Even before a second tourist died this week, Mission: Space was emerging as Walt Disney World's most hazardous ride, with more than twice as many reported illnesses and injuries as any other Disney attraction.

Tragedy struck the Epcot ride for the second time when Hiltrud Blümel, 49, of Schmitten, Germany, died Wednesday, a day after she fell ill following a spin on the spaceflight simulator. A 4-year-old boy, Daudi Bamuwamye, died in June after the ride.

Blümel's death renewed questions about the safety of the $100 million attraction that simulates a rocket blastoff and landing.

But plenty of people were eager to experience the ride, which reopened Thursday morning after an inspection late Wednesday by Disney and state officials. Many of the visitors did not know a tourist had died the day before.

Alex Espinoza, 17, rode Mission: Space four times and wasn't worried.

"My voice is destroyed from yelling all day," said Espinoza, who was on a trip with his high-school band from Ohio. "It was really, really fun. They warn you numerous times before you get on the ride. We even had a lady step out before we got on because she was just like, 'I can't do this.' "

In addition to the two deaths in the past 10 months, 10 people have reported serious illnesses or injuries since the ride opened in the summer of 2003, according to reports Disney filed with the Florida Bureau of Fair Rides Inspections. That's the worst record of all the Disney attractions and doesn't include more than 130 other Mission: Space riders who sought medical attention, according to ambulance records.

Second-worst were Space Mountain at Magic Kingdom and the wave pool at Typhoon Lagoon. Each had reported one death and four serious injuries or illnesses since 2003, according to state records.

On Mission: Space, riders are met with 13 signs warning of motion sickness, dark and enclosed spaces and spinning.

Just before people are loaded into the ride capsules, they are shown a video explaining the ride and are again given a chance to exit the line.

All of the warning signs and the video are in English, though Epcot brochures are available in multiple languages at the park's entrance. The brochures briefly describe Mission: Space as the "most thrilling attraction in Disney history" and warn that it may cause motion sickness.

"As with any thrill attraction, Mission: Space is not for all guests," said Disney spokeswoman Kim Prunty.

Prunty said Thursday that no changes have been made to the ride since the Pennsylvania boy's death last summer, and no further review is planned.

There also has been no move to post the warning signs in different languages, she said, but those issues are often reviewed.

A ride worker first called 911 to report Blumel's illness at 1:19 p.m. Tuesday, saying that "she seems pretty bad" but was alert. The ambulance arrived 12 minutes later, and she reached Florida Hospital Celebration Health at 2:04. She died Wednesday.

The Orange County Medical Examiner is expected to perform an autopsy on Blumel today.

Blümel's family asked Disney not to release any information, though Disney reportedly told state authorities that she may have suffered from high blood pressure and other health problems, according to one state source.

Robert A. Samartin, a Tampa attorney representing Daudi's family, said their "hearts go out to the family" of Blümel.

"They certainly understand how they can go from having a wonderful family vacation to just horror," Samartin said. "It's very tragic."

Daudi's death was eventually attributed to a previously undetected heart condition.

Since its start, Mission: Space has developed a troubling reputation for making some people sick. A few months after it opened, it became the only Disney ride offering motion-sickness bags.

The nonfatal incidents reported to the state included three men and a woman who all complained of chest pains and one man who fainted.

Still, millions of people have ridden Mission: Space in three years, and many rave about it as one of the park's top thrills.

Not everyone who gets sick makes a formal complaint.

Paul Borne, 57, a Norfolk, Mass., sales representative, didn't but said he wished he had, after getting sick following a Feb. 28 spin on Mission: Space.

He said he left dizzy, then developed a bad headache that night. The next morning, on the plane home he got sick, tried to head for the lavatory and passed out in the aisle. The flight crew put him on oxygen. When he tried to get up later, he passed out again, and after they landed an ambulance took him straight to a hospital, he said.

After two days of tests the doctors agreed with his assumption that the ride probably was to blame, he said.

"The ride itself? It was wild. It was dizzy. They had puke bags. I would never have gotten on it if I knew it had puke bags. They give you warnings and stuff, but all the rides have warnings," Borne said. "This thing, they gotta close it down."

Mission: Space uses centrifugal force, video and other special effects to make riders feel as if they are in a spaceship blasting off, traveling to Mars and landing. Riders experience four periods, of up to 20 seconds each, when the G-force ranges between 1.6 and 2.3. A G-force of 2 is twice that of gravity.

Under Florida law, Walt Disney World, Universal Orlando, SeaWorld Orlando and Busch Gardens Tampa Bay are responsible for their own ride safety, with no direct state oversight. Bureau of Fair Rides inspectors confer with the theme-park-ride officials annually but only inspect rides when invited.

Terence McElroy, spokesman for the state bureau, described Wednesday night's inspection as "top to bottom."

"Now understand, we don't regulate them. We're not experts on that ride. We don't routinely look at it. So their engineers and safety personnel and inspectors were the ones who actually did it. We did observe that. There did not appear to be anything, to us, that appeared to be out of the ordinary," McElroy said.

Disney officials pride themselves on having what they consider the best ride engineers, inspectors and safety authorities in the country.

However, that doesn't bring much comfort to advocates of public ride inspections such as Kathy Fackler, founder and president of an organization called SaferParks, which pushed for and got California oversight of theme-park-ride safety in 1999.

"All we're asking for is someone who doesn't have huge liability to step in and conduct an independent investigation, and let the public know," she said.

The lines for Mission: Space on Thursday -- in the midst of the busy Easter vacation season -- were much shorter than those at Epcot's other two big rides, Soarin' and Test Track.

One family debated whether to go on.

"We knew it was one of the most popular rides, and I heard about one person who died on it," said Darrell Lipski, who was vacationing from Peoria, Ill., with his wife, Lynette, and their three sons.

Lynette Lipski added, "One person we know went on it and was sick all day."

The couple were unsure whether they would let their family ride, especially their 7-year-old.

"I don't think we want to put him on it," Lynette Lipski said.

Wow, the most hazardous WDW attraction.... Interesting since this is such a safe ride..
 

GothMickey

Active Member
hokielutz said:
Goth, I thought you said you exited this thread for good yesterday???

j/k


I did.. I just find myself being pulled in to this nonsense... Just when I thought I was out, it pulls me back in LOL
 

GothMickey

Active Member
TAC said:
According to Scott Powers and Beth Kassab.

Well, since all you M:S lovers want to bring up numbers... Not according to Scott Powers and Beth Kassab... But according to the numbers.. Do you think they have a secret agenda to bash Disney and M:S?? Come on now... They reported NUMBERS since you all want to toss numbers around... No lying and no denying... M:S is the most complained about attraction for illness.... Why can't you all face it.. Geez.. how much more does it have to be noted...
 

csaribay

Member
GothMickey said:
Well, since all you M:S lovers want to bring up numbers... Not according to Scott Powers and Beth Kassab... But according to the numbers.. Do you think they have a secret agenda to bash Disney and M:S?? Come on now... They reported NUMBERS since you all want to toss numbers around... No lying and no denying... M:S is the most complained about attraction for illness.... Why can't you all face it.. Geez.. how much more does it have to be noted...

While I don't necessarily agree with the points you make of the ride, this folks, is hard indisputable fact. Hazardous is a weasel word (ie: toss out a neutral point of view), but statistically, it has made more people sick than any other WDW attraction.

...Aside from SGE, but that's a different kind of sick...:hammer:
 

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