News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

[larryz]

So, everyone, please stop repeating that the Skyliner will have a capacity of 5,000 pph. That is an extraordinary theoretical cap and is very likely nowhere near the actual rate.

Besides, it raises the question: does Disney get to count all those who don't survive the journey?

 

[danlb_2000]

Besides, it raises the question: does Disney get to count all those who don't survive the journey?

The appropriate measure is actual lpph - Live People Per Hour.

 

[Bender123]

The appropriate measure is actual lpph - Live People Per Hour.

So zero then?

 

[MisterPenguin]

Not sure about the 6,000 but Robbie Von Roll stated on the Resort Loop podcast on Oct 11 that from his talks with Doppelmayr they're going for 5,200/hr.

http://resortloop.com/589/

Right at about the 7 min mark.

Robbie says:

That the rope speed will be 17 mph and that's how they'll get the high pph.

• But @marni1971 says it will be 11 mph. So, that's a 65% reduction in capacity. And if they fill with 8 instead of 10, that's another 20% off capacity bringing it down to 2,500 pph.

There are about 225 cabins.

• But since we don't know how many will be held in a station, we won't know their spacing of the remainder on the ropes.

The cabin will be the Omega V

• Whose video has been seen in this thread.

There will be 3 back up systems keep things moving at least 65% capacity if main power goes down.

Lightning: towers are insulated from ropes. There will be a close down when lightning is near, like for the ferries and outdoor rides. Though, it could theoretically run during lightning without a problem.

Likely wind shutdown at 35-40 mph. Each cabin has stabilizers. Literally impossible to swing.

• What kind? An active or passive system?? Doesn't say. Doppelmayr's own information doesn't mention such.

Disneyland's Skyway closed because of stress fractures that would have required lopping off the top of the Matterhorn to fix it.

 

[deeevo]

Robbie says:

This is going to be an interesting ride. Those towers will still get struck but they will be grounded. Going to make for a nice light show.

Lightning: towers are insulated from ropes. There will be a close down when lightning is near, like for the ferries and outdoor rides. Though, it could theoretically run during lightning without a problem.

 

[MisterPenguin]

This is going to be an interesting ride. Those towers will still get struck but they will be grounded. Going to make for a nice light show

It's not uncommon:

https://www.google.com/search?q=mag...ved=0ahUKEwjb8YXV-67eAhUK7FMKHT8YCPUQ_AUIDigB

 

[NobodyElse]

Robbie says:

That the rope speed will be 17 mph and that's how they'll get the high pph.

• But @marni1971 says it will be 11 mph. So, that's a 65% reduction in capacity. And if they fill with 8 instead of 10, that's another 20% off capacity bringing it down to 2,500 pph.

There are about 225 cabins.

• But since we don't know how many will be held in a station, we won't know their spacing of the remainder on the ropes.

The cabin will be the Omega V

• Whose video has been seen in this thread.

There will be 3 back up systems keep things moving at least 65% capacity if main power goes down.

Lightning: towers are insulated from ropes. There will be a close down when lightning is near, like for the ferries and outdoor rides. Though, it could theoretically run during lightning without a problem.

Likely wind shutdown at 35-40 mph. Each cabin has stabilizers. Literally impossible to swing.

• What kind? An active or passive system?? Doesn't say. Doppelmayr's own information doesn't mention such.

Disneyland's Skyway closed because of stress fractures that would have required lopping off the top of the Matterhorn to fix it.

When estimating People Per Hour, aren't the speed of the rope and the cabin spacing effectively irrelevant? We can likely safely assume that whatever those factors end up being, we'll still have a constant, consistent stream of cabins creeping through the load area at 1(?)MPH or so. We should really just be counting how many people can step into the cabins at that rate.

(Or am I just wildly under-thinking things?)

 

[MisterPenguin]

When estimating People Per Hour, aren't the speed of the rope and the cabin spacing effectively irrelevant? We can likely safely assume that whatever those factors end up being, we'll still have a constant, consistent stream of cabins creeping through the load area at 1(?)MPH or so. We should really just be counting how many people can step into the cabins at that rate.

(Or am I just wildly under-thinking things?)

Actually, pph is dependent on both spacing and speed. I wrote a treatise on the subject...

Don't forget that all the loading stations with the exception of Riviera have the extra wheel for standing still loading, or, to double the loading ability, making keeping up with a faster line possible.

Anyway, to understand the correlation of line speed with loading speed it helps to use an extreme example:

Let's say that a gondola arrives every second. Now, if there were not the detachment to slow it down, and no extra gondolas in the station, then people in the gondolas would have less than half a second to jump out and those getting on would have less than half a second to jump in as the gondola whips around the wheel.

Now, let's fill the station with 60 gondolas (30 on one side unloading and 30 on the other side loading). Every second a gondola comes in, another gondola has to leave. If you follow that one gondola coming into the station, it has to wait for the 60 gondolas ahead of it to leave before it gets sent off. This gives it 30 seconds on the unload side and 30 seconds on the load side. (And if that's still too fast to load, it gets sent off empty).

Now, let's slow down the rope by a factor of 10 but keep the same distance (physical spacing) between gondolas. This means a gondola is entering the station once every 10 seconds instead of every second, and now, one has to leave once every 10 seconds. With 60 gondolas in the station, a gondola that arrives has to wait 10 minutes before it leaves. That gives unloading 5 minutes to unload and loading 5 minutes to load.

But sitting in the station 5 minutes waiting to leave is a long time. So, let's reduce the number of gondolas by 10 to have just 6 of them. Arriving once every 10 seconds, a gondola will have to wait 60 seconds for the other 6 gondolas ahead of it to dispatch. This gives a gondola 30 seconds on the unload side and 30 seconds on the load side.

So, now we have the gondolas arriving every 10 seconds. Let's add more gondolas! We put another gondola in between every current gondola decreasing the physical spacing. So, now, every 10 seconds we have 2 gondolas arriving, which is one every 5 seconds. Which means a gondola has to leave every 5 seconds. So, when a gondola comes in and has 6 gondolas ahead of it that will dispatch once every 5 seconds, then that gondola will only be in the station for 30 seconds. This gives folks 15 seconds to unload and 15 seconds to load.

Now, the real math!

d = distance between gondolas
v = velocity of the rope
a = rate of arrival of the gondolas expressed in time between gondolas
g = number of gondolas in the station
l = time that a gondola spends in the station for unloading and reloading

a = d/v

So, if the distance between gondolas is 40m, and the velocity is close to 11 mph (5m/s), then the gondolas would be arriving once every 8 seconds. [40m / 5m/s = 8s]

l = a*g

So, if the gondolas are arriving every 8 seconds and there are 12 gondolas in the station, then an arriving gondola has to wait 8s * 12 = 96s to leave. This gives 48 seconds to unload and 48 seconds to load (maybe closer to 40 seconds each side since loading and unloading doesn't happen on the turn).

The full formula for amount of loading time is: l = dg/v

So, loading time is correlated to distance between gondolas, AND velocity of the rope, AND number of gondolas in the station.

 

[NobodyElse]

Actually, pph is dependent on both spacing and speed. I wrote a treatise on the subject...

Thank you, and I will read that in a bit. I agree that spacing, speed, (and average cabin capacity) determine pph. I was just proposing that is was those factors in the loading area, not out on the rope that would basically determine queue wait times. (But ultimately it should all work out the same, right?)

 

[surfsupdon]

Caribbean Beach has far less than 2112 rooms currently. They have 579 less rooms...new total of 1534.

So the CBR lines won’t be as bad as they could lol

 

[flynnibus]

When estimating People Per Hour, aren't the speed of the rope and the cabin spacing effectively irrelevant? We can likely safely assume that whatever those factors end up being, we'll still have a constant, consistent stream of cabins creeping through the load area at 1(?)MPH or so. We should really just be counting how many people can step into the cabins at that rate.

(Or am I just wildly under-thinking things?)

No - time in station is independent... because you can control that by how big the station is. What matters is DISPATCH interval... and that is constrained by your cabin spacing and speed on the line. That's the only thing that matters... How much time you have to load into the cabin you can control independently of that by dictating how big the station is, and how many cabins you keep in it. As long as the dispatch rate matches the inbound rate... you can do whatever you want in the station.

Ultimately you put space requirements on it, so you end up with boundaries... but that is not what dictates the actual capacity.

 

[joelkfla]

*Just adding that the max capacity numbers for an articulated bus is 200, but lets be real...140-150 is the most realistic number you are going to get at WDW with the strollers, scooters, kids and gear.

Don't know who told you the capacity of an articulated bus is 200, but that's totally bonkers. A 40' New Flyer Xcelsior bus is rated to carry up to 83, and that's with standees packed like sardines. The 60' articulated model is rated for 123; anything above that would be illegal. And New Flyer claims they have the highest passenger capacity in the industry.

 

[Bender123]

Don't know who told you the capacity of an articulated bus is 200, but that's totally bonkers. A 40' New Flyer Xcelsior bus is rated to carry up to 83, and that's with standees packed like sardines. The 60' articulated model is rated for 123; anything above that would be illegal. And New Flyer claims they have the highest passenger capacity in the industry.

Its literally a spec from the manufacturer of the articulated busses. As I said, that's not at all realistic in daily use.

 

[joelkfla]

Its literally a spec from the manufacturer of the articulated busses. As I said, that's not at all realistic in daily use.

Which bus manufacturer? Maybe you were looking at a spec for the 80' double-articulated Bus Rapid Transit units, which are commonly used in Latin America. Disney Transport only has about a dozen 60' units, and neither Epcot nor the old bus loop at DHS were set up to handle them. So for comparison to the Skyway, using numbers for 40' standard buses is more appropriate. The new DHS bus loop will have some 60' load zones.

 

[NormC]

Robbie says:

That the rope speed will be 17 mph and that's how they'll get the high pph.

• But @marni1971 says it will be 11 mph. So, that's a 65% reduction in capacity. And if they fill with 8 instead of 10, that's another 20% off capacity bringing it down to 2,500 pph.

• Doppelmayr states D-Line top speed is 15.66 MPH or 7 m/s and Martin says 11 MPH. I predict it will be somewhere in between. I doubt it would be 17.

There are about 225 cabins.

• But since we don't know how many will be held in a station, we won't know their spacing of the remainder on the ropes.

• I have heard 325 cabins were ordered with the intent to have 315 on the ropeways and 10 spares.

The cabin will be the Omega V

• Whose video has been seen in this thread.

• I posted that video and I hope they are indeed using the Omega V but the ones on site now are Omega IV-10 SI models. Lift Blog mentioned that the V series was not available at the time of Disney's order so they got the IV.

There will be 3 back up systems keep things moving at least 65% capacity if main power goes down.

Lightning: towers are insulated from ropes. There will be a close down when lightning is near, like for the ferries and outdoor rides. Though, it could theoretically run during lightning without a problem.

Likely wind shutdown at 35-40 mph. Each cabin has stabilizers. Literally impossible to swing.

• What kind? An active or passive system?? Doesn't say. Doppelmayr's own information doesn't mention such.

• The V series video shows the suspension embedded in the roof but unfortunately does not elaborate on it.

 

[Lift Blog]

• Doppelmayr states D-Line top speed is 15.66 MPH or 7 m/s and Martin says 11 MPH. I predict it will be somewhere in between. I doubt it would be 17.

• I have heard 325 cabins were ordered with the intent to have 315 on the ropeways and 10 spares.

• I posted that video and I hope they are indeed using the Omega V but the ones on site now are Omega IV-10 SI models. Lift Blog mentioned that the V series was not available at the time of Disney's order so they got the IV.

• The V series video shows the suspension embedded in the roof but unfortunately does not elaborate on it.

As I've said before, a reduction in speed does not necessarily equal a reduction in capacity because cabins can be spaced closer together.

Just because Doppelmayr's website has some stats doesn't mean they aren't pushing things further with this totally unique project.

The cabin that was in the DHS station is an Omega IV. It's possible the Skyliner will get the V as they are the same size. But everything so far indicates Omega IV. Most people wouldn’t know the difference anyways.

Mr. VonRoll's family built hundreds of ropeways around the world including at Disneyland before selling their company to Doppelmayr in 1996. He usually knows what he is talking about.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Mr. VonRoll's family built hundreds of ropeways around the world including at Disneyland before selling their company to Doppelmayr in 1996. He usually knows what he is talking about.

But you underestimate WDWs reputation for changing specs of a project constantly, not only up to the point of construction, but during construction and even after implementation. It's what they do all the time. So, Robbie could be 100% right with the information he was given at the time he inquired and things have changed since then. It's the WDW way.

 

[joelkfla]

No - time in station is independent... because you can control that by how big the station is. What matters is DISPATCH interval... and that is constrained by your cabin spacing and speed on the line. That's the only thing that matters... How much time you have to load into the cabin you can control independently of that by dictating how big the station is, and how many cabins you keep in it. As long as the dispatch rate matches the inbound rate... you can do whatever you want in the station.

Ultimately you put space requirements on it, so you end up with boundaries... but that is not what dictates the actual capacity.

OK, so what is a reasonable dispatch interval that can be expected? As an example, 8.5 secs. yields 7 dispatches per minute, which at a load factor of 8 per cabin yields 3360 pph. That's on the low side of numbers that have been thrown around, but even that moves 56 ppm, which is 2 full busloads every 3 minutes. So spread over 4 resorts, that's a bus to each resort every 6 minutes, which probably betters what Disney Transport can do now, even at park close.

With a load factor of 10 per cabin, a dispatch interval of 7.5 seconds would attain 4800 pph; at 8 per cabin, 6 secs. would be required. 4800 pph is 80 ppm, equivalent to a bus load every minute.

 

[flynnibus]

The V series video shows the suspension embedded in the roof but unfortunately does not elaborate on it.

Looked like a flex plate concept. The attach bracket itself having flex and recovery to allow absorption of the energy. I think calling it 'suspension' is a bit of a stretch... but hey, marketing

 

[GCTales]

As I've said before, a reduction in speed does not necessarily equal a reduction in capacity because cabins can be spaced closer together.

Just because Doppelmayr's website has some stats doesn't mean they aren't pushing things further with this totally unique project.

The cabin that was in the DHS station is an Omega IV. It's possible the Skyliner will get the V as they are the same size. But everything so far indicates Omega IV. Most people wouldn’t know the difference anyways.

Mr. VonRoll's family built hundreds of ropeways around the world including at Disneyland before selling their company to Doppelmayr in 1996. He usually knows what he is talking about.

I think where he was going is that Disney is quite willing ot make changes enroute, issue change orders, re-engineer, etc.

The ride the company I worked for had multiple change orders, was re-engineered multiple times at Disney's direction as they changed how they wanted to accomplished what it did.

So it really would not surprise me if along the way they decided they really wanted a V and issued a change order to Doppelmayr to accommodate the effort required to incorporate the V into the system.