P_Radden
Well-Known Member
I guess @danlb_2000 and I should be taking this comment as a pat on the back! I'm sure we didn't get it 100% accurate but can you hint as to how close we came?
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News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -
- Thread starter danlb_2000
- Start date
rushtest4echo
Well-Known Member
Flynn, sorry about that, but it's at least relevant to the discussion. Are gondolas really able to cope with a certain percentage of the riders being in ECV's?
And monorails are WDW's most inflexible system of transport. Logically, the system should be shut down and ripped out tomorrow. I'm certainly glad that the monorails are around, but when you boil it down to cost and flexibility- the monorails are a nightmare. Much of those issues are self inflicted, but they're still issues that have to be dealt with every day.
Whenever I see people preening over monorail expansion I picture the daily hours worth of downtime we see, and then multiply it by however many more stops/lines/trains that would need to be added. Also factor in ballooning transfer times as more and more guests use the system. There's already a good 20-30 minute wait for MK's express monorail under peak load, so how much worse would that get if twice the number of resorts/parks/guests had access to that line?
Yes, all of this could be addressed by proper upkeep/upgrades/staffing/fleet size, but that's relying on a company that hasn't exactly demonstrated proficiency with those things and monorails outside Tokyo.
And monorails are WDW's most inflexible system of transport. Logically, the system should be shut down and ripped out tomorrow. I'm certainly glad that the monorails are around, but when you boil it down to cost and flexibility- the monorails are a nightmare. Much of those issues are self inflicted, but they're still issues that have to be dealt with every day.
Whenever I see people preening over monorail expansion I picture the daily hours worth of downtime we see, and then multiply it by however many more stops/lines/trains that would need to be added. Also factor in ballooning transfer times as more and more guests use the system. There's already a good 20-30 minute wait for MK's express monorail under peak load, so how much worse would that get if twice the number of resorts/parks/guests had access to that line?
Yes, all of this could be addressed by proper upkeep/upgrades/staffing/fleet size, but that's relying on a company that hasn't exactly demonstrated proficiency with those things and monorails outside Tokyo.
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flynnibus
Premium Member
Open floors, roll on, roll off, and could offer locking straps/clips if needed. Why do you think it would be a concern? Weight wise it's just one less adult per ECV hit on capacity. Space wise probably 1.5 people.
And don't over complicate the problem.. even today on the buses ECVs are like one per every 30 riders.. the new gondolas do not create new ECVs.
Based on that speed we would be looking at about 3 1/2 minutes from Epcot IG to the north CBR station, and south CBR station to DHS in 2 1/2 minutes.
rael ramone
Well-Known Member
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrocable_(Medellín)
A workmate of mine is from Medellin and goes back to visit family every year.... I'll have to ask how it works down there... and how it's maintained...
A workmate of mine is from Medellin and goes back to visit family every year.... I'll have to ask how it works down there... and how it's maintained...
the.dreamfinder
Well-Known Member
Speaking of maintenance, what is the life cycle on these gondolas?
flynnibus
Premium Member
Monorails require a direct, obstructing access path. Cable systems are more varied in how they can go over/under things with more options
Monorail beams don't span great gaps - suspended cables can
Monorails can't change grade very rapidly - cable systems can
Cable systems can pack more vehicles closer - that means you can have smaller vehicles that dispatch quicker
Quicker dispatch = more steady moving of guests through your system, which usually means less waits
Smaller, more agile vehicles means easier to add/remove vehicles from service. Less impact if you need to take one offline/service
Cable systems can allow vehicle passing/non-blocking stations - single beam monorails can not
Suspension Systems are far more economical and practical than rigid support - which is why you see them as popular designs for bridges.
I'm sure you were probably thinking more along the lines of 'fixed path' - they are both fixed path.. but they are not equals.
G00fyDad
Well-Known Member
Relevant or not people here have shown a complete inability to discuss ECV's with any sense of maturity. Please leave them out of the conversation.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Personal views are irrelevant. Walt Disney World must comply with the EPCOT Accessibility Code, Florida Accessibility Code and the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Capcity can be adjusted to meet demand. Loading is also near continuous.
Anyway, I know everyone's getting whipped into a fervor over this, but has anyone thought about how this thing is going to look sticking up behind France?
Please excuse my 2 minute photoshop hack job.
There is no need for the gondola lift to be that high or use that many towers so close to each other. The gondolas do not need to be any higher than the current monorail.
Besides, Paris is likely getting a lift system soon.
I'm not sure what exact model Martin had in mind. It could be a smaller model of the one posted, or, one with less occupancy because they don't have middle benches so as to accommodate personal vehicles.
It's unlikely a lightning strike would take out a gondola lift except temporarily. The system is very mechanical. If the electronic controls are fried, then the back up generators can be fired up and the system goes on manual control until everyone is off.
Part of the permit which spilled the beans includes a gravel roadway through the swamp/wetland right underneath the path of the gondolas. This would allow an evac vehicle to get underneath any stranded gondola. The height of the gondola doesn't have to be any higher than the monorail. There is no need for any special evac vehicle other than the ones they already have.
There's a video in this thread of someone in a wheelchair easily entering a gondola.
ECVs, wheelchairs, and strollers are a non-issue.
WDWFigment
Well-Known Member
I found them to be much improved (I described them was Poly-lite), but pretty much the only direction for those rooms to go was up. The previous version looked like clown(fish) barf.
Generally, I think Walt Disney World has done a good job with its recent round of room refurbishments. The goal seems to be balancing theme and quality, and that has meant dialing back the theme a bit. I like the result at Wilderness Lodge and the Poly in particular (although I know not everyone agrees on either), whereas I feel Beach Club and BoardWalk Villas have gone a little too far, and made the rooms too generic.
bunnyman
Well-Known Member
As a skier who has used gondolas all over, the issue of loading those with special situations can easily be remedied with detachable cars being set aside for those loading needs. Most gondolas today run as high speed that detach from the cable at the end points as the cars travel around a slower wheel to reattach when either loaded or unloaded. A car set aside on rails nearby can easily be attached/removed from cable as needed. At resorts that have peak restaurants, you’ll see them often attach a cargo car as needed to bring supplies up or trash down, and they easily add these cars on and off the cable without a significant impact to crowd flow. Also, if you’ve ever watched a ski resort at either the end or beginning of the day you’ll see them either loading the cars on the cables or removing them.
I'd think you could bring the cost per mile down considerably for each additional mile you put in the system. The big costs are the power drive stations and load stations. Adding more cable and a few more towers/crossarms won't cost nearly as much as the power drives (although longer/more load will require bigger power sources).
rushtest4echo
Well-Known Member
I'm really not trying to drag out the ECV discussion BUT: the need for low floor buses and the space/time occupied by ECV's on said buses has completely crippled WDW's bus system's capacity. A 15 minute route that used to carry 60 people now carries 50 and takes 20 minutes. 33% longer route + 17% reduced capacity. A route that used to have 4 buses now probably needs 6 for the same throughput (except that capacity probably hasn't been added, people just end up waiting that much longer).
If this system can help alleviate that issue on these routes, that's another efficiency gain with this system vs buses.
Sachilles
Member
Maintenance would be on going/constant. Unsure what the regs in florida are by for the ski industry in Vermont, the grips on the lift vehicles must meet destructive testing requirement every three years, which is a bit of time suck. However, with enough cars, you can cycle this testing through with little impact to operation. Ski resorts don't usually have every lift running during the summer, so it's easier to accomplish this during the off season.
You have to deal with alignment constantly as part of your maint regime. A lift tech climbs the tower and adjust the wheels on the tower to make sure they are still in alignment. Any recent lift accidents in the US, this alignment step was found to be lacking. I'm certain Disney would be diligent on this. Reason for alignment changes, is that the bases can move over time, so the tower then moves. There is a fairly forgiving margin of error, but not the less the better you are at it, the for efficient(saving money) and safer it is. So even if you question the safety motive, we know Disney will want to operate it the most efficiently it can.
You have to deal with alignment constantly as part of your maint regime. A lift tech climbs the tower and adjust the wheels on the tower to make sure they are still in alignment. Any recent lift accidents in the US, this alignment step was found to be lacking. I'm certain Disney would be diligent on this. Reason for alignment changes, is that the bases can move over time, so the tower then moves. There is a fairly forgiving margin of error, but not the less the better you are at it, the for efficient(saving money) and safer it is. So even if you question the safety motive, we know Disney will want to operate it the most efficiently it can.
Rodan75
Well-Known Member
The video posted of the Breck Connect system pretty much alleviated the mobility concern for me although I suspect that we will end up with lots of 8-10-20 person gondolas with only 3 people on them, as folks won't fold up strollers. But again, watching the Breck Connect video, this thing could move like an omnimover and that wouldn't be a huge concern.
And if they have an ability separately load passengers who couldn't get on a rotating platform or who need extra assistance to load and queue up that gondola getting back on the line, this looks like the best possible solution.
rushtest4echo
Well-Known Member
Another maintenance thing to consider:
Monorails have multiple drive motors and even more moving parts/brake systems in addition to suspension and the door hardware. Then there's the electrical lines which need cleaning and maintenance. Tons of upkeep be car, per train, per line. Gondolas usually have 2 or 3 traction/drive motors and accompanying suspension/tension systems and that's it. Everything (except for air conditioning) on the cars and the doors are usually manual or at least not motor driven. Of course there are upkeep and maintenance costs and parts will fail on both systems and I'm not expert on either one of these systems, but one has to assume that upkeep for gondolas is a fraction of the cost of the monorail.
Monorail has a door problem: let it sit on the platform and clog up the line for 20 minutes while they wait for maintenance to fix it. Then if they can't, wait another 10-15 minutes for them to pull the train form service.
Gondola has a door problem: move to maintenance spur in about 15 seconds, go back to normal operation.
Monorail has a drive motor problem: shut down the line, get out the tug, drag the train through multiple track switches back to the roundhouse. Takes an hour or more and usually results in multiple lines being down.
Gondola has a drive motor problem: turn on the back up motor and continue operation.
Monorail loses power for a sustained period: evacuate, news helicopters, hours of headaches.
Gondola loses power: Redundant generator takes over and everyone's off in 15 minutes.
It's not always that cut and dry, but you can see the difference pretty easily.
Monorails have multiple drive motors and even more moving parts/brake systems in addition to suspension and the door hardware. Then there's the electrical lines which need cleaning and maintenance. Tons of upkeep be car, per train, per line. Gondolas usually have 2 or 3 traction/drive motors and accompanying suspension/tension systems and that's it. Everything (except for air conditioning) on the cars and the doors are usually manual or at least not motor driven. Of course there are upkeep and maintenance costs and parts will fail on both systems and I'm not expert on either one of these systems, but one has to assume that upkeep for gondolas is a fraction of the cost of the monorail.
Monorail has a door problem: let it sit on the platform and clog up the line for 20 minutes while they wait for maintenance to fix it. Then if they can't, wait another 10-15 minutes for them to pull the train form service.
Gondola has a door problem: move to maintenance spur in about 15 seconds, go back to normal operation.
Monorail has a drive motor problem: shut down the line, get out the tug, drag the train through multiple track switches back to the roundhouse. Takes an hour or more and usually results in multiple lines being down.
Gondola has a drive motor problem: turn on the back up motor and continue operation.
Monorail loses power for a sustained period: evacuate, news helicopters, hours of headaches.
Gondola loses power: Redundant generator takes over and everyone's off in 15 minutes.
It's not always that cut and dry, but you can see the difference pretty easily.
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bunnyman
Well-Known Member
If anyone has ever been to DL, for Space Mountain they have a separate "train" set aside to load with those with special needs. Rather than try and accommodate everyone on the main line, they have a separate special needs line that once they have enough to load the extra train, that train is inserted into the system (we experienced this system first hand). As I pointed out above, accommodating special needs or ECV situations is easily remedied with “on demand” gondola cars set aside that can be added to the system as needed. This way a car can be loaded at the leisure of the those being loaded and the line keeps moving; once the extra car is ready it can easily be added to the cable with minimal downtime for the whole line.