News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

[Rodan75]

Another maintenance thing to consider:

Monorails have multiple drive motors and even more moving parts/brake systems in addition to suspension and the door hardware. Then there's the electrical lines which need cleaning and maintenance. Tons of upkeep be car, per train, per line. Gondolas usually have 2 or 3 traction/drive motors and accompanying suspension/tension systems and that's it. Everything (except for air conditioning) on the cars and the doors are usually manual or at least not motor driven. Of course there are upkeep and maintenance costs and parts will fail on both systems and I'm not expert on either one of these systems, but one has to assume that upkeep for gondolas is a fraction of the cost of the monorail.

With so many municipalities looking at Gondola systems as mass transit solutions, you have to wonder if the selected vendor wouldn't give Disney a huge discount/sponsorship to put in and maintain this system as a showpiece which would also lower the costs.

 

[Kamikaze]

So...wait...you're telling me that a car suspended up in the air by a cable is more flexible and practical than a monorail?

Care to elaborate? Asking purely out of curiosity...

And don't get me wrong...this will be great I'm sure...but I wonder if it's more of a band-aid...?

Not who you're replying to, but it is. A gondola system runs a new vehicle every 15-20 seconds. A monorail runs every what, 4 minutes? 5? And buses are 20+ during the day. While 'flexible' isn't really the word, it is more efficient at moving groups of people steadily than a monorail.

Monorail capacity is a little under 7000 per hour. Thats about 460 people per train if they go every 4 minutes. That would mean, to have the same capacity at a relatively slow 1 per 15 seconds, they would need to have a 28 person max in each gondola vehicle. Sounds like a lot, but the Roosevelt Island tramway (which has been running with only two minor incidents over 40 years) has a vehicle capacity of over 100 per vehicle.

Is it as cool as the monorail? No. Is it more efficient, both in terms of guest-flow and cost? Absolutely.

As far as practicality goes, for a point to point system, it is damn practical. It avoids a lot of the disadvantages of something like a monorail expansion or light rail, because it doesn't need massive land clearances or to avoid existing roads. Obviously it won't run over buildings and such, they will avoid that everywhere its possible. The lines that were put in by our sleuths here are only straight lines, and since none of the placement of the support towers are known at this time.

I would imagine they will use a system similar to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gondola_lift#/media/File:Mueller_gondola_gstaad3.jpg
Where the vehicles can be completely removed from the line at the stations to allow for slow-loading groups to get on without stopping the entire system. This would allow ECVs, wheelchairs, kids, etc to not have to rush in any way to get on to the vehicle and avoiding the cars on the entire section stopping every couple minutes for this to happen.

 

[bunnyman]

By the way, the "gondola" concept is the hot, go-to transportation method being looked at all over. I know they've been exploring it in upstate NY (the Albany area):

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Albany-Rensselaer-gondola-update-Conditions-are-10618115.php

 

[Kamikaze]

Oh gawd, not a Star Wars resort. Please.

A Star Wars resort is a license to print money. The longer they don't do it, the more money they are throwing away.

Seriously, I very much doubt anything will happen with CBR's theme. It is loved by many Guests who come from cold climates. And while I haven't stayed there in 15 years, I have heard very good things about the recently redone rooms there. Mr. Gets Around aka

I stayed there a month ago for Dopey. The rooms were great.

 

[rushtest4echo]

If anyone has ever been to DL, for Space Mountain they have a separate "train" set aside to load with those with special needs.

Thanks for recognizing my handiwork.

 

[bunnyman]

Thanks for recognizing my handiwork.

You're design?

 

[Coaster Lover]

Thanks for sharing the link, some of the Gondola pictures that are going around here are giving me vertigo. I wasn't afraid of heights until I saw some of these insane mountain side pictures! As mentioned earlier in this thread, I would assume the Diz version will scoot as low to the ground as possible - for both sight-line concerns (seeing backstage stuff and behind facades) and the overall safety sensation of guests.

Makes sense. Increases in height of the system also increase the total cable length which increases the time it takes to get from point A to point B as well if comparing two systems with the same cable speed. As such, keeping it as low to the ground as possible also (to an extent) decreases travel time (when compared to a similar system that ascends/descends from a higher elevation while traveling at a similar speed. Ground level stations would be ideal (so you don't need to worry about elevators/escalators), but in theory, you could make elevated stations and have the gondolas travel at the same height once they leave the station (basically akin to what the monorails do). Keep the whole system 20 feet or so off the ground and go no higher (except maybe over roads, parking lots, or other obstacles).

 

[draybook]

I would love to see a people mover type system. I know it's not as practical as a light rail but a guy can dream.

 

[GhostHost1000]

I would love to see a people mover type system. I know it's not as practical as a light rail but a guy can dream.

would be more costly than this approach

 

[montyz81]

Another maintenance thing to consider:

Monorails have multiple drive motors and even more moving parts/brake systems in addition to suspension and the door hardware. Then there's the electrical lines which need cleaning and maintenance. Tons of upkeep be car, per train, per line. Gondolas usually have 2 or 3 traction/drive motors and accompanying suspension/tension systems and that's it. Everything (except for air conditioning) on the cars and the doors are usually manual or at least not motor driven. Of course there are upkeep and maintenance costs and parts will fail on both systems and I'm not expert on either one of these systems, but one has to assume that upkeep for gondolas is a fraction of the cost of the monorail.

Monorail has a door problem: let it sit on the platform and clog up the line for 20 minutes while they wait for maintenance to fix it. Then if they can't, wait another 10-15 minutes for them to pull the train form service.
Gondola has a door problem: move to maintenance spur in about 15 seconds, go back to normal operation.
Monorail has a drive motor problem: shut down the line, get out the tug, drag the train through multiple track switches back to the roundhouse. Takes an hour or more and usually results in multiple lines being down.
Gondola has a drive motor problem: turn on the back up motor and continue operation.
Monorail loses power for a sustained period: evacuate, news helicopters, hours of headaches.
Gondola loses power: Redundant generator takes over and everyone's off in 15 minutes.

It's not always that cut and dry, but you can see the difference pretty easily.

As much as I am a huge fan of the Monorails, I have to agree with you. Additionally, expansion is pretty easy and relatively inexpensive.
Which leads me to my question, why wouldn't they connect the elbow part of the line in the Caribbean to Disney Springs? That makes all the sense in the world to me.

The only downfall of this system is that it will take much more time to travel on then the monorail. In the time it takes to get from Hollywood studios to Epcot, It is likely I could get their faster by boat. Additionally, my trip from Magic Kingdom TTC to Epcot would be quicker too.
I'd imagine that the change points will require someone to disembark and re-board. With a big family, carriages and baggage, that could take some time.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

Possibly not that high a capacity per gondola.

How they configure the interior of the gondolas is up to Disney. The more seats, the less people. But I'm pretty sure that this is the manufacturer and model.

And I wouldn't be surprised, now that the cat is out of the bag, if Uni has an announcement of it's own very soon.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

So...wait...you're telling me that a car suspended up in the air by a cable is more flexible and practical than a monorail?

Care to elaborate? Asking purely out of curiosity...

And don't get me wrong...this will be great I'm sure...but I wonder if it's more of a band-aid...?

Cheaper track, cheaper vehicles, faster construction, more vehicles. This could, in theory, be expanded to every park and resort at WDW.

 

[Sachilles]

As much as I am a huge fan of the Monorails, I have to agree with you. Additionally, expansion is pretty easy and relatively inexpensive.
Which leads me to my question, why wouldn't they connect the elbow part of the line in the Caribbean to Disney Springs? That makes all the sense in the world to me.

The only downfall of this system is that it will take much more time to travel on then the monorail. In the time it takes to get from Hollywood studios to Epcot, It is likely I could get their faster by boat. Additionally, my trip from Magic Kingdom TTC to Epcot would be quicker too.
I'd imagine that the change points will require someone to disembark and re-board. With a big family, carriages and baggage, that could take some time.

I calculate it as an 11 minute ride, with a far quicker loading than the friendship boats from IG to DHS. The wait would be minimal as well.
This estimate is based on a distance where the run is from IG to the boardwalk lot, turns to the new tower section of CBR, turn to south trinidad part of CBR, then to the station at DHS. This is based on published speeds, and the practical used speeds of the lifts used at the resort I use to work at. Practical includes random stops and slow downs, more come with chair type of lifts. The Gondola should be more efficient.
Even with no line, and the boat landing just as you arrive, I think it will be less than half the time of a friendship boat.

 

[rushtest4echo]

As much as I am a huge fan of the Monorails, I have to agree with you. Additionally, expansion is pretty easy and relatively inexpensive.
Which leads me to my question, why wouldn't they connect the elbow part of the line in the Caribbean to Disney Springs? That makes all the sense in the world to me.

The only downfall of this system is that it will take much more time to travel on then the monorail. In the time it takes to get from Hollywood studios to Epcot, It is likely I could get their faster by boat. Additionally, my trip from Magic Kingdom TTC to Epcot would be quicker too.
I'd imagine that the change points will require someone to disembark and re-board. With a big family, carriages and baggage, that could take some time .

Gondolas would put friendships to shame as far as speed
Waiting time for next vehicle: Boats- 5 minutes/Gondolas- Negligible
Boarding process: Boats- 3 minutes/Gondolas- Negligible
Point to point: Probably the same speed

But you're probably already from point A to B on the gondola in the time it took to have the boat drive up, dock, disembark, load passengers, spiel, disembark and turn around.

Maybe if this takes off, they can replace the express and EPCOT monorails with these thing (sacrilege, I know). It would only be a 15 minute ride from TTC to Epcot, and it takes longer than that if they're only running two trains (or even usually if they're running 3). I'd actually love to take a gondola from the TTC to Magic Kingdom over the lagoon, though that would mess with sight lines pretty badly.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

If this system can help alleviate that issue on these routes, that's another efficiency gain with this system vs buses.

"On these routes" is the key phrase on why this project doesn't make 100% sense to me. We're talking about a very limited scope in terms of what destinations this infrastructure will service. For that reason, I question how much impact it can possibly have on the entire "system."

 

[DisneyOwl12]

As much as I am a huge fan of the Monorails, I have to agree with you. Additionally, expansion is pretty easy and relatively inexpensive.
Which leads me to my question, why wouldn't they connect the elbow part of the line in the Caribbean to Disney Springs? That makes all the sense in the world to me.

The only downfall of this system is that it will take much more time to travel on then the monorail. In the time it takes to get from Hollywood studios to Epcot, It is likely I could get their faster by boat. Additionally, my trip from Magic Kingdom TTC to Epcot would be quicker too.
I'd imagine that the change points will require someone to disembark and re-board. With a big family, carriages and baggage, that could take some time.

If Disney would connect this to DS, it would defeat the purpose of not having direct bus service from DS to the parks, which they've already shown they don't want to do. Off-site guests would park at DS then take the gondola to DHS or Epcot. This would clog up the DS parking even more than it already is and possibly lead to paid parking there in the future.

I posted earlier in this thread a comparison to an existing gondola in Breckenridge, CO. Going off of its specs, the trip from DHS to Epcot or vice versa would take around 17-18 minutes. How long does it take to get from DHS to Epcot in a friendship boat? I haven't timed it and it's been a few years, but the boat felt like it took forever to make the trip and still involves having to stop a multiple resorts, unless you choose to walk part of the way along the Boardwalk, which is what my family does. This also doesn't take into account the time you spend waiting for the boat. The continuous load of the gondola system would ensure the wait to get on is minimal aside from the open/close rush.

Additionally, existing gondola systems have shown that these lines can accommodate load/unload without having to disembark at each mid-station and board a new car.

I don't follow your point about the TTC to Epcot route, as that's already serviced by the monorail and shouldn't be affected by this project.

 

[rushtest4echo]

If it can service 6000 rooms (after CBR's size is doubled) then that's 20% of the guests on property. If half of them use this system (for Studios/Boardwalk/EPCOT visits) then you have at least 10% of the resorts bus traffic removed, in addition to the reduction in staffing, fuel, wait times and traffic.

Not to mention, the area that this project seems to encircle is THE WORST area of the resort (besides Downtown Disney before they fixed it). I'll keep my rant short, but the late 80's/early 90's Eisner expansions around WDW were mind numbingly shortsighted for traffic flow. Nothing was grade separated (except for an entry that nobody used), no fly overs (again, except for an entry nobody uses), even though all of the parks before and since have been. There are no traffic signals between Magic Kingdom and I4. No signals between EPCOT and I4, yet there are between 3 and 6 depending on how you enter/exit. AK has one annoying signal, which I hope the grade separate with all of the construction occurring at that junction. Traffic signals everywhere around the EPCOT resorts and Hollywood Studios dumping Buena Vista/EPCOT Ctr Drive is the biggest traffic blunder ever. The second dumbest thing they did was the conversion to Disney Village Marketplace in the 90's without bothering to address the terrible traffic signaling there. They've now spent years and hundreds of millions of dollars to fix the DTD/Village/Springs area that was broken for decades, but the Epcot Resorts Area remains a nightmare. They're now trying to fix that mess with the new Disney Studios entry/exit and possibly this gondola thing.

All of this is necessary because they cheaped out in the late 80's/ early 90's and didn't spend the money for proper roadways back then. They also didn't send the monorail to the Studios or Disney Springs as has been lamented about here and on other Disney boards forever. Of course, the Disney of that time period could do no wrong, it's only these new penny pinchers running the resort who are ruining everything...

 

[G00fyDad]

"On these routes" is the key phrase on why this project doesn't make 100% sense to me. We're talking about a very limited scope in terms of what destinations this infrastructure will service. For that reason, I question how much impact it can possibly have on the entire "system."

Just a guess here but this is probably a "test" installation. They have the solid plan laid out and are positive it will work but they chose to implement this in a smaller scale to see how it will effect the system as a whole in real world situations. If it proves to work well they will probably roll this out resort-wide.

 

[Sachilles]

If Disney would connect this to DS, it would defeat the purpose of not having direct bus service from DS to the parks, which they've already shown they don't want to do. Off-site guests would park at DS then take the gondola to DHS or Epcot. This would clog up the DS parking even more than it already is and possibly lead to paid parking there in the future.

This could be mitigated quite easily with magicband turnstiles at the springs. You can't get on the system without a valid band(or pay the equivalent of a parking fee). You'd recover your lost parking fees or discourage people from the practice.

 

[Minthorne]

If Disney would connect this to DS, it would defeat the purpose of not having direct bus service from DS to the parks, which they've already shown they don't want to do. Off-site guests would park at DS then take the gondola to DHS or Epcot. This would clog up the DS parking even more than it already is and possibly lead to paid parking there in the future.

Could they limit access to the Load area at DS to Resort Guests only via MB?