News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

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joelkfla

Well-Known Member
peter11435 said:
I’m guessing you’ve never worked an attraction.

Flexible, yes. But only slightly.
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No, only buses. But I have sat at the bottom of the drop shaft for 30 seconds or so of silence on TOT, and it seems like the dispatch of individual ride systems on Soarin', Star Tours, and Mission: SPACE have no relationship to the other ride systems. And almost every time I ride FOP, there's a "calibration error" in the first preshow that loops anywhere from a few seconds to a few minutes.
flynnibus said:
You didn't follow the design or listen to the problem being solved.

Just think how tot and soarin are released from their stalls.... while also thinking about continuously queuing into those stalls and then you'll get it.

The problem is you need chunks of people... not a necessarily a continuous stream of people. You also have a desire for these chunks to be grouped. This problem is exaggerated the bigger the group being assembled (and why it's not really an issue for omnimovers that only need groups of 2-4)

Doing that in rows let's the platform pick a pre sorted group of people without hestitation or stragglers.
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OK, but those other attractions you mentioned all give the groupers the length of a full ride cycle to work it out (TOT, maybe half a ride cycle), and the ability to delay dispatch somewhat if necessary. And they don't start filling rows until all rows for the previous cycle have loaded, so they start with a clean slate on each cycle. That's different from a row of 8 being loaded every 10 seconds, and the 1st row being released while the 3rd is still being filled.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's a different model than the "large ride vehicle" attractions. The gondola is essentially a WEDway PeopleMover on a rope, with cabins holding 8 (or 10) instead of 4.

They might have 2 or 3 "rows", but I think the grouping position would be under more pressure and require more skill than other rides. It would be easier to handle each group as it reaches the front of the queue: either direct them to the cabin entering the load area, or set them aside for the next available one. Once that cabin is adequately filled, start filling the next one with folks that were set aside. That makes it a binary choice, with no need to keep track of which "row" is loading next.

If they're in crush mode, and a single or duo come along who can fit in a cabin that's still in the load area, fine, but that's above and beyond, extra brownie points. Or have a singles line, as Slushie suggested.
 
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flynnibus

flynnibus

Premium Member
joelkfla said:
OK, but those other attractions you mentioned all give the groupers the length of a full ride cycle to work it out (TOT, maybe half a ride cycle), and the ability to delay dispatch somewhat if necessary. And they don't start filling rows until all rows for the previous cycle have loaded, so they start with a clean slate on each cycle. That's different from a row of 8 being loaded every 10 seconds, and the 1st row being released while the 3rd is still being filled.
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That's by choice - not constraint (and fueled by the combined pre-show and grouping function at ST). Look at how they do the rollercoasters like BTMRR - you have multiple rows and you just keep the rows filled with the right sized groups. It's the same thing. They keep filling the rows as long as there is space on the platform. The Grouper is responsible to know to fill the rows up and down the platform roughly evenly so at each dispatch there will always be a group ready at each row.

The grouper is not limited to grouping inbetween each dispatch.. they do it continuously based on space on the platform. I used Star Tours as an example because it uses a large group per row instead of the 2-3 most people are used to in this concept. The concepts if you want to do pre-grouping are exactly the same. Have rows filled with groups... keep filling the rows.. and at the platform you take a group from an existing staged row.

The alternative is you simply have 'one row' which is the normal line and you re-arrange people in the line to make your groups before they hit the platform. This is not as easy as people tend to be indecisive about understanding what the group is telling them to do.. and people don't understand why is this person getting in front of me, etc etc etc.

Or alternative 3.. you direct people on the platform itself into a vehicle and simply accept the best you are doing is 'best fit' between the roughly 1-3 groups you have at your disposal right on the platform. This is hardest to do in real-time with the least efficient use of capacity... but it is the least labor intensive and least space used on the platform itself.

It all boils down to what you prioritize. All three concepts are used throughout Disney... and some even a blend of those concepts.
 
flynnibus

flynnibus

Premium Member
joelkfla said:
They might have 2 or 3 "rows", but I think the grouping position would be under more pressure and require more skill than other rides. It would be easier to handle each group as it reaches the front of the queue: either direct them to the cabin entering the load area, or set them aside for the next available one. Once that cabin is adequately filled, start filling the next one with folks that were set aside. That makes it a binary choice, with no need to keep track of which "row" is loading next.
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The problem with the 'set aside' method is you just don't have space to putting more than 1-2 groups aside. It becomes a traffic jam upon itself.. never mind your choices for best fit are very limited.

That's why the pre-stage design is better... it has space already set aside for the people and gives you the ability to fit across many more groups at once.. instead of only 2-3.

Then you have the problems with guests simply not listening. Like if you tell a group to wait at the rail.. grouper is talking to the people in line... cabin opens up... the group who was told to wait often just decides "oh this one is free..." and ignores the CM and does what they want, etc. Communication to the guests to move when and where you want, in real-time, in a dispatched system can be challenging.

It's why the cast at high demand attractions like Space Mountain at DL and Indy are practically barking at guests.
 
J

joelkfla

Well-Known Member
flynnibus said:
The problem with the 'set aside' method is you just don't have space to putting more than 1-2 groups aside. It becomes a traffic jam upon itself.. never mind your choices for best fit are very limited.

That's why the pre-stage design is better... it has space already set aside for the people and gives you the ability to fit across many more groups at once.. instead of only 2-3.

Then you have the problems with guests simply not listening. Like if you tell a group to wait at the rail.. grouper is talking to the people in line... cabin opens up... the group who was told to wait often just decides "oh this one is free..." and ignores the CM and does what they want, etc. Communication to the guests to move when and where you want, in real-time, in a dispatched system can be challenging.

It's why the cast at high demand attractions like Space Mountain at DL and Indy are practically barking at guests.
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(Responding to both previous posts)
I think you're saying that you have a grouper cm and a 2nd cm who releases the rows, and the 2nd cm just picks an available full row to load, while the grouper fills the rows in no particular order. That does make it easier than maintaining strict FIFO. I was envisioning just one cm to group and direct Guests, and a 2nd to assist them boarding.

I agree that the roller coaster model is closer than the large ride vehicle model, but in that case you're dealing with 2 per row, and the rows board at different individual positions, so space is less of an issue. The Skyliner stations are rather small, and setting up several rows holding 10 would take up lots of space. I think they would have to be parallel to the line of travel; the platforms don't appear to be wide enough to set them up perpendicularly. Or they could be corrals, like the handicap gates at the TTC Monorail station.

OTOH, it would be easy to configure a single set-aside area at the front of the queue, with no access to the load area without going through the grouper.

And having a larger group (8 or 10) works to the advantage, as there are more ways to get within 1 or 2 of the target load count. I don't foresee the need to hold more than 1 group. If 2 groups larger than 5 come along, just dispatch the current cabin with however many Guests are in it and move on.
 
J

joelkfla

Well-Known Member
Screen capture of 2 cabins in the loading area of the Mi Teleferico white line in La Paz, Bolivia. Look at the distance between the bumpers of the 2 cabins. It looks to be around 3-4 ft., which I think is much closer than we've seen running thru DHS so far.
352742


Full video:
 
Nubs70

Nubs70

Well-Known Member
MickeyMinnieMom said:
My point is they have even less time here than with some attraction loads -- particularly many of those that they always try to send out full -- like the examples I gave. Still stands. Never said it applied to all attractions.

Regardless -- other posters answered my question wrt load procedure: the answer is we don't know.
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The CM (line shepherds) will work at the cue assembling groups of appropriate size. This can be done at a tempo that keeps enough WIP in place so every cab departs full.
 
D

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
Why is the loading of Gondolas being so over complicated? Most of my Gondola riding experience is the Eagle Bahn Gondola in Vail. The loading is very simple. There is a main line and a single rider's line. Even when the queue is completely full the process is the same.

The loader asks how many in the party at the front of the line. They point to the next Gondola. If there is still room for more than one in the cabin, they ask the next party how many. If the next party is too big or there is only room for one more they fill with the singles line.

For Disney, there are not going to be very many singles so I doubt they will have a singles line. Therefore, if a party is too big for the remaining cabin capacity, they may have to ask the party to stand to the side and find out how many are in the next party. I'm sure during the slow times it will simply be one party to a Gondola.

A gondola is not a new, high tech, form of transportation. They've been around for a very long time and are used all around the world. It is not a complex or dangerous form of transport. It is also not particularly exciting. I can understand speculation and a million questions about a new ride where little information is available. For a gondola, I don't understand how this thread has reached 831 pages.
 
W

WDW Monorail

Well-Known Member
DisneyCane said:
Why is the loading of Gondolas being so over complicated? Most of my Gondola riding experience is the Eagle Bahn Gondola in Vail. The loading is very simple. There is a main line and a single rider's line. Even when the queue is completely full the process is the same.

The loader asks how many in the party at the front of the line. They point to the next Gondola. If there is still room for more than one in the cabin, they ask the next party how many. If the next party is too big or there is only room for one more they fill with the singles line.

For Disney, there are not going to be very many singles so I doubt they will have a singles line. Therefore, if a party is too big for the remaining cabin capacity, they may have to ask the party to stand to the side and find out how many are in the next party. I'm sure during the slow times it will simply be one party to a Gondola.

A gondola is not a new, high tech, form of transportation. They've been around for a very long time and are used all around the world. It is not a complex or dangerous form of transport. It is also not particularly exciting. I can understand speculation and a million questions about a new ride where little information is available. For a gondola, I don't understand how this thread has reached 831 pages.
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I cannot read this thread since it is so unintelligible. I click in to it once in a while and I cannot tell if every poster is either joking, clueless or worse.

A gondola system is just like being in a car, but a few feet up in the air. The Monorail operates at a higher elevation through parts of the system. Travel time will only be a fee minutes to any station you wish to travel to along the gondola system.

Compare this to the Mt. Pilatus gondola system which is a 30 minute ride in a 4 person car plus a transfer to another cable way for another 5 or so minutes up to an elevation of nearly 7000’ ASL. Neither of these systems are scary or dangerous or any other nonsense described in this thread.
 
Kamikaze

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
Thebolt said:
I'd expect loading will typically be 2 parties per gondola, front bench and back bench (with exceptions for non-typical parties). That makes organising guests relatively simple, so minimising the need for load staff.

Park closing will likely be a special case, of cramming people in every gap - but it will need additional staff to get guests organised quickly, deal with arguments, dedicate people to ECVs etc. and to keep the loading process moving smothly.
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I don't think you're right in either case. 1 party per cabin, unless people want to ride together. They come into the station too often to do the type of organization and crowd control you're talking about.
 
R

Ripken10

Well-Known Member
Kamikaze said:
I don't think you're right in either case. 1 party per cabin, unless people want to ride together. They come into the station too often to do the type of organization and crowd control you're talking about.
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They do it at ski resorts (and other gondolas). It is not as complicated as you think. They have been doing it for a very long time. Most often, however, there will never be much of a line that they have a need to combine. Once again, this is how it works at ski resorts. Ski resorts actually see a lot more traffic then most people realize. The same person could ride the same gondola within a 10 minute span (a lot of variables here), making it more traffic throughout the day.
 
Goofyernmost

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Ripken10 said:
They do it at ski resorts (and other gondolas). It is not as complicated as you think. They have been doing it for a very long time. Most often, however, there will never be much of a line that they have a need to combine. Once again, this is how it works at ski resorts. Ski resorts actually see a lot more traffic then most people realize. The same person could ride the same gondola within a 10 minute span (a lot of variables here), making it more traffic throughout the day.
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Therein, lies the problem. Many of the people that are worried about the process are people that have never experienced how modern Gondola's work. If anyone has a memory of the old primitive Gondola's that were installed in Disneyland and WDW before they opened, did have to tolerate long lines because #1 the Gondola's were much smaller and more difficult to board and #2 the full system didn't have the sophistication of the one that is currently being placed there. I don't really anticipate any real problems with them. I predict that before the end of the next decade there will be many more on the WDW layout. (sorry JFK, didn't mean to steal your words)
 
Kamikaze

Kamikaze

Well-Known Member
Ripken10 said:
They do it at ski resorts (and other gondolas). It is not as complicated as you think. They have been doing it for a very long time. Most often, however, there will never be much of a line that they have a need to combine. Once again, this is how it works at ski resorts. Ski resorts actually see a lot more traffic then most people realize. The same person could ride the same gondola within a 10 minute span (a lot of variables here), making it more traffic throughout the day.
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peter11435 said:
There is plenty of time. It’s no more often than at many attractions. They can easily do it if they desire.
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I didn't say anything about not having too much time, or being too complicated. I said they come in too often. If theres a cabin every 10 seconds, why bother going through the process of combining groups and figuring out numbers? Each group gets a cabin is much simpler and won't slow down the speed of the line much, as the overall capacity is high enough that it doesn't matter.

In other words - why bother combining groups when it isn't necessary?
 
Incomudro

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
Kamikaze said:
I didn't say anything about not having too much time, or being too complicated. I said they come in too often. If theres a cabin every 10 seconds, why bother going through the process of combining groups and figuring out numbers? Each group gets a cabin is much simpler and won't slow down the speed of the line much, as the overall capacity is high enough that it doesn't matter.

In other words - why bother combining groups when it isn't necessary?
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Sounds right.
Get out early in the morning at say Caribean Beach when these thing start running and you'll be able to just step on one and go.
If and when there is a line, yes - they would be likely to want to fill them up.
 

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