News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

[WildRide]

thanks!

 

[DoppelmayrFTW]

The most accurate speed of the wheels on the towers I was able to get is 3-4 Revolutions per second. given this, and assuming Liftblogs 485 mm diameter is accurate, the speed of the Gondola in the video is 900-1000 feet per minute. D-Line Gondolas can theoretically run 1200-1400 feet per minute (6-7m/s) Only Time will tell if they intend to run this system at that speed.

 

[MisterPenguin]

The most accurate speed of the wheels on the towers I was able to get is 3-4 Revolutions per second. given this, and assuming Liftblogs 485 mm diameter is accurate, the speed of the Gondola in the video is 900-1000 feet per minute. D-Line Gondolas can theoretically run 1200-1400 feet per minute (6-7m/s) Only Time will tell if they intend to run this system at that speed.

1,000 feet per minute is a little more than 11 mph, which is what Martin said it'd be.

 

[DoppelmayrFTW]

While I'm at it (please correct my math if its wrong) If the lift runs at 1000 ft/m and there are 325 cabins, and the system in total is 31000 feet long (this is the length of cable so the actual length of all the lines is 15500 ft roughly) then the interval of cabins is 95 ft. 1000/95 is 10 cabins per minute, 600 cabins per hour, 10 people per cabin, which brings the hourly capacity to 6000 people per hour. For a gondola of this type this is unheard of, I checked this math on lifts with known capacities so I am reasonably certain it is correct, but if anyone knows something I don't, please share!

 

[MisterPenguin]

While I'm at it (please correct my math if its wrong) If the lift runs at 1000 ft/m and there are 325 cabins, and the system in total is 31000 feet long (this is the length of cable so the actual length of all the lines is 15500 ft roughly) then the interval of cabins is 95 ft. 1000/95 is 10 cabins per minute, 600 cabins per hour, 10 people per cabin, which brings the hourly capacity to 6000 people per hour. For a gondola of this type this is unheard of, I checked this math on lifts with known capacities so I am reasonably certain it is correct, but if anyone knows something I don't, please share!

Are you figuring in the cabins in the station moving at 1 mph? And measured the length between stations and multiplied by 2 (for going and coming back)? And more than likely, WDW isn't going to pack 10 people per cabin, so, figure 8 per cabin.

 

[DoppelmayrFTW]

Are you figuring in the cabins in the station moving at 1 mph? And measured the length between stations and multiplied by 2 (for going and coming back)? And more than likely, WDW isn't going to pack 10 people per cabin, so, figure 8 per cabin.

The speed in the terminal doesn't matter because the interval doesn't change, its still a new cabin every however many seconds, they are just closer together, same as any other lift built by Doppelmayr, as for the cabins, they are pretty clearly the 10 passenger variant of the Omega IV cabins. compare one to an 8 passenger version:

https://www.wdwinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/skyliner2.png

https://www.doppelmayr.com/typo3temp/assets/_processed_/4/8/csm_MGD_Trittkopf_480x750_01_b0ce986e56.jpg

 

[cosmicgirl]

While I'm at it (please correct my math if its wrong) If the lift runs at 1000 ft/m and there are 325 cabins, and the system in total is 31000 feet long (this is the length of cable so the actual length of all the lines is 15500 ft roughly) then the interval of cabins is 95 ft. 1000/95 is 10 cabins per minute, 600 cabins per hour, 10 people per cabin, which brings the hourly capacity to 6000 people per hour. For a gondola of this type this is unheard of, I checked this math on lifts with known capacities so I am reasonably certain it is correct, but if anyone knows something I don't, please share!

I doubt that they would use all cabins at the same time without having a certain number as spares and in maintenance. So the number of cabins in use would be less than 325.
Furthermore, the cabins in use are never on a haul rope all at the same time. @Lift Blog has told us from the start of construction that the stations are exceptionally long, so we can expect a decent chunk of the cabins to be in a station (and thus, off the haul rope) at any given time. For ease of calculation let's say that there will be 10 cabins moving through each station. In that case there would already be 60 cabins less on a haul rope at any given time, so the math changes accordingly.

That said, we talked about this maybe a year ago and I believe we came to a launch interval of 7.2s to hit the rumored capacity of 5000pph per line in each direction. 5000pph/10p per cabin = 500 cabins per hour, so 8.33 cabins per minute and a launch interval of 7.2s.
Note that the total number of cabins in use is not directly related to the capacity of the line. It is the launch interval, and therefore the distance between cabins on the haul rope, which dictates the capacity of the line. As long as there are enough cabins in service to satisfy the launch interval then additional cabins do not result in a higher capacity.

Edited to add this for the nerds: I would expect the distance between cabins on the rope to be the actual theoretical control variable based on the design of the system and safety margins. I'm not sure of the exact relationship, but I would expect the required distance between cabins to be inversely proportional to the rope velocity and obviously limited by the design parameters of the rope, as well as the capacity of the stations. So in theory the rope velocity would dictate the distance between cabins, which in practice would translate to the launch interval.
From this perspective the distance between cabins D is a function of V. In an ideal world D would be constant for a given V, so the number of cabins on the rope at any given time, and therefore the capacity, would also be constant for a given V. As long as there are enough cabins in use to the meet the distance requirement then more cabins do not result in a higher capacity, just more time to load/unload as long as the capacity of the stations is not exceeded.

The size of the station, and as a result the number of cabins that can be in the station (off the rope) at the same time, determines how much time there is to unload and load. The more cabins there are in the station, the more launches there are before cabin X launches. With a launch interval of 7.2s this would give cabin X 7.2*(X-1) seconds for unloading and loading.

 

[DoppelmayrFTW]

I doubt that they would use all cabins at the same time without having a certain number as spares and in maintenance. So the number of cabins in use would be less than 325.
Furthermore, the cabins in use are never on a haul rope all at the same time. @Lift Blog has told us from the start of construction that the stations are exceptionally long, so we can expect a decent chunk of the cabins to be in a station (and thus, off the haul rope) at any given time. For ease of calculation let's say that there will be 10 cabins moving through each station. In that case there would already be 60 cabins less on a haul rope at any given time, so the math changes accordingly.

That said, we talked about this maybe a year ago and I believe we came to a launch interval of 7.2s to hit the rumored capacity of 5000pph per line in each direction. 5000pph/10p per cabin = 500 cabins per hour, so 8.33 cabins per minute and a launch interval of 7.2s.
Note that the total number of cabins in use is not directly related to the capacity of the line. It is the launch interval, and therefore the distance between cabins on the haul rope, which dictates the capacity of the line. As long as there are enough cabins in service to satisfy the launch interval then additional cabins do not result in a higher capacity.

Edited to add this for the nerds: I would expect the distance between cabins on the rope to be the actual theoretical control variable based on the design of the system and safety margins. I'm not sure of the exact relationship, but I would expect the required distance between cabins to be inversely proportional to the rope velocity and obviously limited by the design parameters of the rope, as well as the capacity of the stations. So in theory the rope velocity would dictate the distance between cabins, which in practice would translate to the launch interval.
From this perspective the distance between cabins D is a function of V. In an ideal world D would be constant for a given V, so the number of cabins on the rope at any given time, and therefore the capacity, would also be constant for a given V. As long as there are enough cabins in use to the meet the distance requirement then more cabins do not result in a higher capacity, just more time to load/unload as long as the capacity of the stations is not exceeded.

The size of the station, and as a result the number of cabins that can be in the station (off the rope) at the same time, determines how much time there is to unload and load. The more cabins there are in the station, the more launches there are before cabin X launches. With a launch interval of 7.2s this would give cabin X 7.2*(X-1) seconds for unloading and loading.

I didnt think about how many cabins were in the terminal, assuming launch interval of 7.2 seconds 5000 an hour would be correct. I do t see them leavimg any significant number of carriers off the line during operation, the most I would say is 1 or 2 per line and even that seems exessive.

 

[cosmicgirl]

I didnt think about how many cabins were in the terminal, assuming launch interval of 7.2 seconds 5000 an hour would be correct. I do t see them leavimg any significant number of carriers off the line during operation, the most I would say is 1 or 2 per line and even that seems exessive.

We calculated it the other way around. The capacity was rumored to be 5000pph so we started there to get a launch interval, although I have no idea where that rumor originated.

You may be right about the number of inactive cabins, I honestly have no idea. Regardless, I stand by my point that the distance between cabins for a given speed, and thus the launch interval, is the main driver for the capacity. That distance is not dependent on the number of cabins they have, but rather a design parameter. So while I understand your reasoning, I believe the premise that the distance between cabins is dependent on the number of cabins they have is wrong.

 

[MisterPenguin]

We calculated it the other way around. The capacity was rumored to be 5000pph so we started there to get a launch interval, although I have no idea where that rumor originated.

5,000 is real world numbers for ski lifts that push the limits which @Lift Blog dropped on us. Doppelmayr themselves advertise around 3,400 - 4,200 for this type of build. But with WDW running the rope purposely slower (at 11 mph and not 17 mph), according to @marni1971, and not filling a European 10 passenger cabin with 10 Americans, but most likely just 8, the numbers drop to around 2,400 pph. A number that is perfectly adequate and more than what the current bus schedule can pull.

 

[jt04]

OT time out

BIG Designs New Gondola for Oakland Athletics Baseball Team

Bjarke Ingels Group has designed an expansive cable-car system to connect to the new Oakland Athletics baseball stadium.

www.archdaily.com

 

[TiggerDad]

5,000 is real world numbers for ski lifts that push the limits which @Lift Blog dropped on us. Doppelmayr themselves advertise around 3,400 - 4,200 for this type of build. But with WDW running the rope purposely slower (at 11 mph and not 17 mph), according to @marni1971, and not filling a European 10 passenger cabin with 10 Americans, but most likely just 8, the numbers drop to around 2,400 pph. A number that is perfectly adequate and more than what the current bus schedule can pull.

Rope speed shouldn't affect capacity, just the length of the ride (or degree of cooking if you want to go there).

As stated above, the launch interval and per-cabin capacity are what matter.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Rope speed shouldn't affect capacity, just the length of the ride (or degree of cooking if you want to go there).

As stated above, the launch interval and per-cabin capacity are what matter.

Define "capacity". If you mean the number of people in gondolas at any one time, then you are correct. A rope going 11 mph or a rope standing sill will have the same capacity of bodies being held in the cabins.

If by "capacity" you mean the rate of people processed, then velocity of the rope will most definitely affect capacity as measured in PPH. Just imagine the rope ramping up to infinite speed... it will process an infinite number of bodies. A rope standing still processes no bodies.

See here for the math...

Don't forget that all the loading stations with the exception of Riviera have the extra wheel for standing still loading, or, to double the loading ability, making keeping up with a faster line possible.

Anyway, to understand the correlation of line speed with loading speed it helps to use an extreme example:

Let's say that a gondola arrives every second. Now, if there were not the detachment to slow it down, and no extra gondolas in the station, then people in the gondolas would have less than half a second to jump out and those getting on would have less than half a second to jump in as the gondola whips around the wheel.

Now, let's fill the station with 60 gondolas (30 on one side unloading and 30 on the other side loading). Every second a gondola comes in, another gondola has to leave. If you follow that one gondola coming into the station, it has to wait for the 60 gondolas ahead of it to leave before it gets sent off. This gives it 30 seconds on the unload side and 30 seconds on the load side. (And if that's still too fast to load, it gets sent off empty).

Now, let's slow down the rope by a factor of 10 but keep the same distance (physical spacing) between gondolas. This means a gondola is entering the station once every 10 seconds instead of every second, and now, one has to leave once every 10 seconds. With 60 gondolas in the station, a gondola that arrives has to wait 10 minutes before it leaves. That gives unloading 5 minutes to unload and loading 5 minutes to load.

But sitting in the station 5 minutes waiting to leave is a long time. So, let's reduce the number of gondolas in the station by 10 to have just 6 of them. Arriving once every 10 seconds, a gondola will have to wait 60 seconds for the other 6 gondolas ahead of it to dispatch. This gives a gondola 30 seconds on the unload side and 30 seconds on the load side.

So, now we have the gondolas arriving every 10 seconds. Let's add more gondolas! We put another gondola in between every current gondola decreasing the physical spacing. So, now, every 10 seconds we have 2 gondolas arriving, which is one every 5 seconds. Which means a gondola has to leave every 5 seconds. So, when a gondola comes in and has 6 gondolas ahead of it that will dispatch once every 5 seconds, then that gondola will only be in the station for 30 seconds. This gives folks 15 seconds to unload and 15 seconds to load.

Now, the real math!

d = distance between gondolas
v = velocity of the rope
a = rate of arrival of the gondolas expressed in time between gondolas
g = number of gondolas in the station
l = time that a gondola spends in the station for unloading and reloading

a = d/v

So, if the distance between gondolas is 40m, and the velocity is close to 11 mph (5m/s), then the gondolas would be arriving once every 8 seconds. [40m / 5m/s = 8s]

l = a*g

So, if the gondolas are arriving every 8 seconds and there are 12 gondolas in the station, then an arriving gondola has to wait 8s * 12 = 96s to leave. This gives 48 seconds to unload and 48 seconds to load (maybe closer to 40 seconds each side since loading and unloading doesn't happen on the turn).

The full formula for amount of loading time is: l = dg/v

So, loading time is correlated to distance between gondolas, AND velocity of the rope, AND number of gondolas in the station.

 

[TiggerDad]

Define "capacity". If you mean the number of people in gondolas at any one time, then you are correct. A rope going 11 mph or a rope standing sill will have the same capacity of bodies being held in the cabins.

If by "capacity" you mean the rate of people processed, then velocity of the rope will most definitely affect capacity as measured in PPH. Just imagine the rope ramping up to infinite speed... it will process an infinite number of bodies. A rope standing still processes no bodies.

See here for the math...

Other than the extreme examples of infinite speed and zero speed, the interval between cabin launches is the key factor. Your fancy math even shows that where you divide distance by velocity to create an example of gondolas arriving every 8 seconds.

If the rope is going 20 mph with a cabin launch every 8 seconds, you have the same PPH as a rope going 10 mph with a launch every 8 seconds.

3600 seconds per hour gets you 450 launches times 8 passengers per car gets you back to 3,600 PPH theoretical capacity. 7.2 seconds would be 4,000, regardless of how fast the rope is going.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Other than the extreme examples of infinite speed and zero speed, the interval between cabin launches is the key factor.

Stop right there. Calling examples 'extreme' does not negate the point being made. Keeping all things the same, speeding up the rope increases capacity, slowing the rope down decreases capacity.

That's keeping all other things the same. If you want to keep changing the distance between cabins to compensate for the change in speed of rope then you hide the effect the rope velocity has on capacity.

The math stands. Velocity, distance between cabins, and the number of cabins in the station each contribute to PPH. Changing just one of those values changes PPH.

 

[flynnibus]

Other than the extreme examples of infinite speed and zero speed, the interval between cabin launches is the key factor. Your fancy math even shows that where you divide distance by velocity to create an example of gondolas arriving every 8 seconds.

You are right.. and wrong at the same time. Dispatch is the RESULTING number that is the critical one... but Dispatch is CONSTRAINED by rope speed, so it's not immaterial and is relevant.

You are correct that rope speed alone is not the factor.. but the important dispatch interval that can be maintained is dependent on both space and rope speed.

TL: DR - Dispatch rate is the resulting number that matters... but Dispatch is bounded by constraints including rope speed and available space.

 

[marni1971]

Real IG work should start soon.

 

[TiggerDad]

Stop right there. Calling examples 'extreme' does not negate the point being made. Keeping all things the same, speeding up the rope increases capacity, slowing the rope down decreases capacity.

That's keeping all other things the same. If you want to keep changing the distance between cabins to compensate for the change in speed of rope then you hide the effect the rope velocity has on capacity.

The math stands. Velocity, distance between cabins, and the number of cabins in the station each contribute to PPH. Changing just one of those values changes PPH.

With all due respect to your math skills, your formula does not in fact work for the extreme examples of velocity = 0 or velocity is infinite. We are dealing in real numbers here, and you can't divide by zero. A rope moving infinitely fast is not possible in the real world. So can we focus on non-extreme numbers?

The number of cabins in the station does not affect PPH as long as there are enough to keep launching on regular intervals.

Did you have any issues with my math? dispatch interval and people per cabin are sufficient to calculate PPH.

 

[TiggerDad]

You are right.. and wrong at the same time. Dispatch is the RESULTING number that is the critical one... but Dispatch is CONSTRAINED by rope speed, so it's not immaterial and is relevant.

You are correct that rope speed alone is not the factor.. but the important dispatch interval that can be maintained is dependent on both space and rope speed.

TL: DR - Dispatch rate is the resulting number that matters... but Dispatch is bounded by constraints including rope speed and available space.

Not sure what I said that you are claiming is wrong. I think you're saying that it doesn't work to have a really slow rope or a really fast rope

 

[flynnibus]

Not sure what I said that you are claiming is wrong.

Your opening statement that caused the tangent..

Rope speed shouldn't affect capacity, just the length of the ride

Rope speed does affect the capacity... because rope speed is a factor in determining what dispatch interval you can maintain. They are not independent variables. Dispatch window is a COMPUTED number based on multiple variables.. some of which depend on rope speed.

You keep saying 'dispatch is all that matters' - Yes... but your window of valid Dispatch times is not an independent, artibitary number. Which is why you can't ignore all other factors.