News New Gondola Transportation - Disney Skyliner -

[orky8]

On your first point, not really...Even at a huge batching and a full theater, UoE had a theoretical capacity of less than 1500 per hour (assuming perfect loads and full capacity). You are always limited by the cycle times, no matter how many people you load in or the number of people waiting, a batch is a batch. Haunted Mansion has a theoretical capacity of over double that at 3200 per hour.

You are caught up in bulk capacity and not looking at how a system actually cycles people on and off. 8 per minute is continuous (and actually fairly accurate in real world use of these systems), in your example would be a 64 person per minute capacity compared to a monorail having a stated maximum capacity (no strollers/ecvs/packed like sardines) capacity of 360 people. In order to equal the capacity of the gondola, the monorail would need to complete a cycle about every 5 minutes and 30 seconds. That means pull into the station, unload, load, leave, repeat. In real world use, you would simply never be able to do this on the monorail beams without massively impacting safety by having monorails basically pulling in as others are pulling out. The transit time from the Grand Flo to MK is significantly less than this, so the monorails would just end up parked in the middle of the beam or stuck at the previous station.

If you expect 2 minute dispatches of monorails, you would either need to greatly extend your track to accommodate all these trains (which increases travel distance and time en route) or you would need a much improved Disney guest that can instantly load and unload in a near perfect maneuver.

Again, your logic is severely flawed. First, for some reason you have no problem assuming each gondola can achieve the maximum 8 person capacity while dispatching every 7.5 seconds (hardly likely with strollers and ecvs) and yet dismiss the monorails maximum capacity. Second, the monorail does in fact cycles much faster than every 5 minutes and 30 seconds. By way of random example - literally first video I pulled up on Youtube, here you see a monorail open the exit doors, unload, load, and leave station in 1 minute, 30 seconds.



Moreover, you don't need load and unload at each station during peak time -- you load at park, unload at destination or vice versa. Third, because it is a circle, you don't need more track - you simple need enough trains to always have one ready at the pickup point, so as soon as one leaves, the next one is ready to pull in. Fourth, the actual capacities of UOE and HM are wholly irrelevant -- the point being while HM to gondola is a good analogy, monorail to Dumbo is a poor one because Dumbo has both slow dispatch and small capacity, whereas monorail may have slow dispatch, but it has huge capacity.

 

[G00fyDad]

People did figure out how to get on the MK Skyway without losing their minds and pooping their pants. This is an even easier system to load than that was. Granted, you're adding the extra ECV factor, but its not as difficult as some would think.

And I am sure that the vast majority of guests will be able to chew bubblegum, walk, and enter the gondola at the same time. However, with the millions going to Disney we all see our fair share of "goofballs" that cannot handle simple tasks with ECV's and strollers regardless of clear signage. To say that this is going to be foolproof and we will see a seamless unerring load and unload is just silly.

 

[Andrew C]

The CM controlled turnstiles at Disney had very clear directions too.

Throw the whole system in the trash then. Because it is just so darn complicated and people are just so darn stupid for it to ever work.

Do you hear yourself? Coming up with every excuse as to why it won't work. If everyone thought like this, we would still be living in the stone age. Goodness...

There are going to some people here and there that struggle from time to time. The system will be able to handle this with little impact if CMs are trained in appropriate best practices.

 

[Bender123]

Again, your logic is severely flawed. First, for some reason you have no problem assuming each gondola can achieve the maximum 8 person capacity while dispatching every 7.5 seconds (hardly likely with strollers and ecvs) and yet dismiss the monorails maximum capacity. Second, the monorail does in fact cycles much faster than every 5 minutes and 30 seconds. By way have literally random example - literally first video I pulled up on Youtube, here you see a monorail open the exit doors, unload, load, and leave station in 1 minute, 30 seconds.



Moreover, you don't need load and unload at each station during peak time -- you load at park, unload at destination. Third, because it is a circle, you don't need more track - you simple need enough trains to always have one ready at the pickup point, so as soon as one leaves, the next one is ready to pull in. Fourth, the actual capacities of UOE and HM are wholly irrelevant -- the point being while HM to gondola is a good analogy, monorail to Dumbo is a poor one because Dumbo has both slow dispatch and small capacity, whereas monorail may have slow dispatch, but it has huge capacity.

Monorail does not have nearly the capacity you think it has It has a maximum capacity of 360 people per train. I am not discounting its capacity, its just very difficult to see its problems when it can eat a large group at once. Unfortunately, that group means you only move forward during a batch cycle. Your video is not nearly consistent with a "peak crowd" and really isn't showing a massive rush of people at a park close or open.

As for adding more trains...a circular pattern actually makes traffic problems more likely as a single load problem at one load station will cascade through out the system until you "reset" the pattern. Its hard to explain, but their is a bunch of study on this using standard vehicles.



Oddly, Disney actually studied this in the 1980s and came to the same conclusion...their system actually has HIGHER throughput with less monorails, as it prevents massive system wide backups. The same man who developed the FastPass system also did a study on adding monorails, which the execs actually wanted to buy, but found less monorails kept the system moving better. There was a great discussion on this on one of Len Testas Disney Dish podcast just last year...Its worth a listen.

 

[orky8]

The same man who developed the FastPass system also did a study on adding monorails, which the execs actually wanted to buy, but found less monorails kept the system moving better.

I think you proved my point, right there on the credibility of your arguments... Moreover, automation solves these issues. As long as you have an empty train always ready to enter the station (which, they do a pretty good job of a peak times for the express beam), you then use the automation to compensate or slow down on the trains coming to the unload point if there is a backup.

 

[lazyboy97o]

The CM controlled turnstiles at Disney had very clear directions too.

Turnstiles have a lot more steps than “go forward.”

 

[NormC]

The sky is blue and grass is green.

 

[Bender123]

I think you proved my point, right there on the credibility of your arguments... Moreover, automation solves these issues. As long as you have an empty train always ready to enter the station (which, they do a pretty good job of a peak times for the express beam), you then use the automation to compensate or slow down on the trains coming to the unload point if there is a backup.

New Scientist and a Japanese university basically confirmed the Disney study...so not sure of your point here...just because you don't like the result of the finding doesn't make it less true.

The problem isn't automation, its one backup will cascade backwards into a complete system breakdown in a circular route and is virtually fatal to the continued operation without a complete reset. A load that takes an extra 15 seconds, even in an automated system, is going to cascade backwards and compound. You are putting a lot of faith I the Disney guest to hustle on and off in a clockwork manner that simply isn't realistic. That one slowdown at a station will actually cascade itself backwards to the one that started the slowdown. Just watch the video I inked, as its very accurate to circular systems and real world modeling.

What you are suggesting is basically turning the monorail into an omnimover system, which does not allow gaps to exist. This has its own problems, as we have seen, when one person needs assistance, everybody on the ride stops in place. The gondola addresses these problems by having a different means for load and travel. The cable keeps going, whether there is a load problem or not, because the gondolas are not connected to the cable at the station. As long as the motor is running, people are moving.

 

[flynnibus]

Your analogy is severely flawed. The proper comparison would be more akin to the monorail is Universe of Energy, with huge capacity but slower load and dispatch times vs Haunted Mansion for the gondolas. Moreover, unlike gondolas which are pretty much fixed capacity at all times, with investment and planning, the monorails can have variable capacity, reducing the number of trains or dispatch interval during slower periods and increasing during peak periods. With enough trains, the monorail could always having a train ready to pull into the station when the next one leaves. This is similar to how mass transit works across the country - more trains and shorter dispatch periods during peak times.

Assume the gondola holds 8 people and dispatches 5 gondolas per minute. Maximum capacity for 30 minutes after park close is only 1200 people. In fact, that is the constant and only capacity. Now, compare that to a monorail which holds 300 people and assume a dispatch rate of 1 every 3 minutes. Maximum capacity for 30 minutes after park close is 3,000 people. Add more trains and you can dispatch every 2 minutes with a maximum capacity for those 30 minutes of 4,500 people. During the middle of the day, take some trains off the beam for cleaning and maintenance.

Unfortunately, if my analogy is true, and the monorail is UOE, well then we may be in trouble...

Your skewed this to your view

Both systems are capable of variable capacity... both systems have a max capacity as well.

The difference is in vehicle capacity, loading times, and minimum spacing required. These factors limit the dispatch intervals and ultimately the total throughput and average wait times.

You also ignore how fast the system can adapt. Monorails can be added or removed, but it is a long disruptive process that impacts existing traffic. Gondolas can be added or removed with almost zero disruption.

This is the same argument heavy rail has verse street transit. Heavy rail always carries more. But it is not as flexible and it has longer intervals. This means you generally wait longer between batches.

You also missed where the more monorails that are out... the more failures you have waiting to happen. The gondola system is effectively one system (or even count each station) while each monorail is one..

 

[orky8]

Your skewed this to your view

Both systems are capable of variable capacity... both systems have a max capacity as well.

The difference is in vehicle capacity, loading times, and minimum spacing required. These factors limit the dispatch intervals and ultimately the total throughput and average wait times.

You also ignore how fast the system can adapt. Monorails can be added or removed, but it is a long disruptive process that impacts existing traffic. Gondolas can be added or removed with almost zero disruption.

I would have to defer to @Lift Blog as to the feasibility and whether Disney plans to do this with their system design, or whether gondolas are just typically left on the line. However, I dispute your assertion that adding monorails has to be lengthy or disruptive. I agree with the current system it is, but with a properly designed system with automation, it's a simple as a switcher track letting another train onto the line. Mass transit systems do this all the time. I agree, Disney would need to have some redesign here. But, to be clear, this is a flaw with Disney's current set up -- not monorails in general.

This is the same argument heavy rail has verse street transit. Heavy rail always carries more. But it is not as flexible and it has longer intervals. This means you generally wait longer between batches.

Um, precisely. Heavy rail works great where you are moving a lot of people at peak times. That is Disney World precisely.

You also missed where the more monorails that are out... the more failures you have waiting to happen. The gondola system is effectively one system (or even count each station) while each monorail is one.

True, but again, this is more a flaw with Disney's current layout. having multiple crossovers allows a bad train to be bypassed. In an ideal world, there should be a crossover point at each station to allow bypassing malfunctioning equipment. Further, with proper maintenance (I know, pipe dream) this should be less of an issue. And of course the flip side is when the gondola goes down, the entire thing is down.

 

[SLUSHIE]

And how many times do we need to point out that this system allows ECVs to be loaded on a stationary side rail or at a slowed speed that does not effect the cable speed...the station and cable are different systems. If a difficult load is needed, the person can be loaded off system and their car inserted into the traffic flow when loading is complete.

There is no way that's how it's going to work. If someone is having trouble getting in our out, it will have to be slowed. It might even be policy that the lift is slowed while a stroller or wheelchair etc. is being loaded. When the lift is slowed, the line still moved at a significant pace, probably just as fast as the old Skyway ever did, but the cabins in the loading area will be hardly moving at all.

A system that takes a cabin off the line and inserts it back in all day long at random intervals just isn't going to work.

 

[orky8]

The gondola addresses these problems by having a different means for load and travel. The cable keeps going, whether there is a load problem or not, because the gondolas are not connected to the cable at the station. As long as the motor is running, people are moving.

This doesn't solve that problem at all. This just allows the omnimover to run at two speeds. If there is a slow down in the station the cable is going to need to slow down or stop because it can't keep sending gondolas into a station that doesn't have room to handle them.

 

[Andrew C]

A system that takes a cabin off the line and inserts it back in all day long at random intervals just isn't going to work.

Actually...this is what gondola systems do to each cabin basically. Each cabin, as it comes into the station, is taken off the line and slowed. Once loaded, it goes back on the cable as it leaves the station. Any additional slowing is typically unnecessary.

 

[Andrew C]

This doesn't solve that problem at all. This just allows the omnimover to run at two speeds. If there is a slow down in the station the cable is going to need to slow down or stop because it can't keep sending gondolas into a station that doesn't have room to handle them.

Since they are already slowing down the gondolas significantly as they enter the station, any additional slow down should be few and far between if CMs are properly controlling the loading process.

 

[orky8]

Since they are already slowing down the gondolas significantly as they enter the station, any additional slow down should be few and far between if CMs are properly controlling the loading process.

Should. Should. And while this has not been your argument, @Bender123 seems to have no problem with gondolas achieving their designed capacity without flaw and yet believe monorails have to run at 1/2 capacity with double the dispatch time to compensate for the average Disney guest. Both can't be true.

He quoted a dispatch interval of 7.5 seconds with 8 people per gondola. That leaves less than 1 second per person for people to get into the their gondola after the group in front of them gets in. Not realistic. Especially not with kids, elderly, and well, Pooh-sized as they like to refer to themselves.

To be clear, I think the gondolas are a great addition and will function well enough, but people need to be realistic in their expectations here. And they aren't monorail replacement by any means.

 

[Andrew C]

And they aren't monorail replacement by any means.

I would never argue that. I am only arguing that gondolas are going to be an efficient way to move people from point A to point B. And any potential issues that could lessen the efficiency of the system can be easily addressed. Of course, the system can only be as efficient as what it is designed to handle. However, I will never get on board with those who say this system will not work at all and there will be so many problems due to people's stupidity, etc. These are made up problems, or potential problems but with easy solutions.

 

[Bender123]

There is no way that's how it's going to work. If someone is having trouble getting in our out, it will have to be slowed. It might even be policy that the lift is slowed while a stroller or wheelchair etc. is being loaded. When the lift is slowed, the line still moved at a significant pace, probably just as fast as the old Skyway ever did, but the cabins in the loading area will be hardly moving at all.

A system that takes a cabin off the line and inserts it back in all day long at random intervals just isn't going to work.

That's literally how all these systems work in the real world...The cabins are disconnected from the rope at the station and placed onto a track for loading. This is exactly how it works. A normal load is a very slow cabin and a special track at load can be used to load people needing a stationary load.

This is not a ski-lift with always attached cabs, the system functions by inserting cabs onto the rope and detaching them at load.

 

[flynnibus]

I would have to defer to @Lift Blog as to the feasibility and whether Disney plans to do this with their system design, or whether gondolas are just typically left on the line. However, I dispute your assertion that adding monorails has to be lengthy or disruptive. I agree with the current system it is, but with a properly designed system with automation, it's a simple as a switcher track letting another train onto the line. Mass transit systems do this all the time. I agree, Disney would need to have some redesign here. But, to be clear, this is a flaw with Disney's current set up -- not monorails in general.

Well... we are working with Disney's monorail... not some city wide theoretical one... and Disney isn't going to remove their system and start over... so the discussion is Disney's system, not a theoretical one.

Second, the switches are disruptive in other systems too.. the difference is having a larger system where only a portion (vs a significant portion) of the system is impacted.

Um, precisely. Heavy rail works great where you are moving a lot of people at peak times. That is Disney World precisely.

No it's not. The Amtrak from DC to NYC is an example of moving lots of people at peak times.. because you are moving HUB TO HUB. Disneyworld is not a HUB to HUB model... you have a ton of people leaving at once, but trying to goto 30+ different destinations. That's why they built the TTC in the first place to have a transportation hub from which the different routes could radiate and interchange.

Heavy rail does not work without feeder networks... which is why any discussion of 'monorails' that doesn't include feeder networks is just dreaming. Heavy rail worked in the old days because the train went between the hubs, and all the intermediates built up AROUND the train paths... not the other way around.

True, but again, this is more a flaw with Disney's current layout. having multiple crossovers allows a bad train to be bypassed. In an ideal world, there should be a crossover point at each station to allow bypassing malfunctioning equipment. Further, with proper maintenance (I know, pipe dream) this should be less of an issue. And of course the flip side is when the gondola goes down, the entire thing is down.

When the monorail beam goes down... they all do too. So that issue is shared, but then the monorails have individual failures that can block the line as well.. which the gondola's don't really. And the gondola system has a backup system able to run without power.. the monorail doesn't.

The rest of your stuff is pie in the sky stuff. Yes its possible to design around those problems, but for the same reason they weren't built in to start... they can't be applied everywhere. Cost, space, practicality.

 

[flynnibus]

He quoted a dispatch interval of 7.5 seconds with 8 people per gondola. That leaves less than 1 second per person for people to get into the their gondola after the group in front of them gets in. Not realistic. Especially not with kids, elderly, and well, Pooh-sized as they like to refer to themselves.

That is not how it works. The dispatch time does NOT dictate how long a vehicle is in the station... it dictates how quickly they leave (and in turn.. arrive). The vehicle speed and length traveled in the station dictates how long people have to load.

 

[Bender123]

Should. Should. And while this has not been your argument, @Bender123 seems to have no problem with gondolas achieving their designed capacity without flaw and yet believe monorails have to run at 1/2 capacity with double the dispatch time to compensate for the average Disney guest. Both can't be true.

He quoted a dispatch interval of 7.5 seconds with 8 people per gondola. That leaves less than 1 second per person for people to get into the their gondola after the group in front of them gets in. Not realistic. Especially not with kids, elderly, and well, Pooh-sized as they like to refer to themselves.

To be clear, I think the gondolas are a great addition and will function well enough, but people need to be realistic in their expectations here. And they aren't monorail replacement by any means.

I am merely doing apples to apples as a perfect monorail would need to load, unload and dispatch 360 people in under five minutes to meet the gondolas continuous operating capacity. The effect actually becomes even more pronounced as the ridership drops during the mid day hours. The monorail doesn't car if one person is on it or 360, it still has to cycle. A person arriving as a monorail departs has a much higher wait than a person arriving as a continuous cabin departs.

Its the same reason Pizza Hut uses a conveyor belt oven for pizza over an oven like in your kitchen. You can likely have three pizzas going into your oven on different racks, but the Pizza Hut over is only limited by the speed of the belt. If a pizza takes longer to prep, you can keep loading other pizzas in until your pizza can be injected into the system. In a batch oven, you either wait for the cycle to complete, remove your pizza and then load your next batch.

This is a topic which has been studied forever and is mathematically as sound as just about anything in a textbook. More loads with continuous motion will almost always be more efficient than a batch system.