New Disneyland Parking Garage and Transportation Hub

[Old Mouseketeer]

No need for abridge, it is already there, have everyone come to the ground level from both garages as they do now, have security check on the west side of Disneyland Drive, then have guests walk under Disneyland Dr where the trams go now, and enter a themed walkway to Downtown Disney, which can be enlarged so the pathway seems shorter. Nice wide path that can handle large crowds including wheelchairs and strollers. Maybe even place a Stroller rental stand next to the security check, to help those who need it with the walk.

It will still need ADA shuttles and a route to get there. Converting the existing tram lanes to pedestrian walkway will not support that.

 

[Darkbeer1]

It will still need ADA shuttles and a route to get there. Converting the existing tram lanes to pedestrian walkway will not support that.

Wrong, ADA does not require shuttles, unless they are available to others. Since the pathway will have very little grade, and no steps without alternative ramps, It would meet all ADA laws. Same as in the park, you are expected to walk, and if needed, use mobility aids, such as canes, crutches, walkers, and wheelchairs of all types. Once again, equal access, not special access.

 

[Disney Irish]

OK, folks, let's get real.

First of all, the most they can achieve in downsizing backstage and CM facilities on the main resort property (Harbor, Katella, DL Drive, Ball Rd.) is 10-20%. They're not going to demolish TDA. They're not going to remove any more backstage facilities North of SWL/Toontown because of the fireworks fallout zone. They're not going to move CM costuming, entertainment costuming, or dressing to the EG area. I know people in those departments and that's simply not viable.

This was some of the same comments I heard when SWL:GE was still a rumor. "There's no room, they can't move backstage facilities." "They will never move xyz offsite as they need it onsite."

And look they moved a lot offsite. So just because you can't see it happening doesn't mean it won't happen.

In fact one of the first rumors I heard after they purchased the Manchester properties was that TDA was going to move there. That still could happen. Whats the difference if the TDA building is at the back of the property or across the street, its the same distance. In fact it might be good for some of those guys to have to actually walk across the street to access the parks. They'll get a good idea of what guests go through.

So in my mind they could effectively move most of rest of the backstage stuff over there and reclaim all the real estate.

Also they can reconfigure or move the fireworks. They can also use different shell that shoot higher so the fallout is less. There are many things that can be done. I'm betting a lot of that is already being done for when SWL:GE opens as part of it in the same fallout zone as Toontown. And we know that they aren't going to close SWL:GE every night for fireworks.

 

[Disney Irish]

My biggest concern about all of this is that I don't see a cohesive plan that spans decades. It looks more to me like yet another bandaid plan. They've been doing this for a long time. The Disney board was bold and decisive with DCA 2.0. While I disagree with their land use at DCA, overall, they set some objectives and largely met them. No, the Imagineers didn't get everything on their placemaking wishlist. But it was more effective than most initiatives.

They had a cogent plan for transportation and parking with DCA 1.0. Traffic from the north would park at M&F and from the south at the unbuilt structure on the Pumbaa lot (former Grand Hotel). The infrastructure for M&F is the evidence of this. It WILL NOT support this new plan. This plan is dead on arrival. It can't work. Where are all those northbound cars on I-5 going to go? Traffic engineers know how to calculate this. I think Disney is playing a dangerous game of brinksmanship aimed at short-term gains at the expense of long-term solutions.

Disney is not going to just give out their entire long term plan, they just aren't. Plus those plans change all the time based on many factors, such as the economy and local politics. For example DCA would have never happened as WestCot would have been there if the economy and other factors like DLP failures hadn't happened.

I don't believe this is Disney playing brinkmanship. This is Disney trying to make something positive out of a bad situation. They know they will need parking for SWL:GW and know they just can't get the Eastern Gateway now if ever. So they take the permits they already have for more parking on the westside, move things around in the plan. Then change the layout of the already announced new 4th hotel to push further into DTD. And then we get what was announced.

Is this what you would have do, no obviously as you have indicated. But we don't know all the layers of this either. For all we know the Harbor businesses were making unreasonable demands that go against the larger plans Disney has for DLR. So with the same information that Disney has you or I may make the same decisions. Remember Disney also isn't just DLR, despite what we in the fandom think. They have to make plans that fall within the larger corporate goals. That is why things take years and sometimes decades to do.

To me this is again Disney trying to turn something negative into something positive. And in the end it may be better long term for the resort. Again just because you can't see it doesn't mean it won't be a better situation. For example they can probably now use some of that extra land to build a CM parking structure. Who knows things like that can happen...

 

[FerretAfros]

Wrong, ADA does not require shuttles, unless they are available to others. Since the pathway will have very little grade, and no steps without alternative ramps, It would meet all ADA laws. Same as in the park, you are expected to walk, and if needed, use mobility aids, such as canes, crutches, walkers, and wheelchairs of all types. Once again, equal access, not special access.

I'm currently a design reviewer for the ADA office of one of the country's largest transit agencies, and I disagree. I tend to work mostly with infrastructure, and this is more of an operational issue, but from what I've seen it would put Disney is a very risky legal position...and we all know how much Disney's legal team likes avoiding those.

• Modifications to existing facilities cannot make them less accessible. If a building has a ramp leading somewhere, that ramp cannot be removed without providing access to that same area (like a platform lift or elevator). Disney currently provides shuttles from their remote parking facility to the parks; they would have an extraordinarily difficult time removing that, even if the trams for able-bodied guests were also taken out of service. Because the distance is so far (about a half-mile on the tram route, at least 2/3mi through DTD), it's hard to see how this would not be making the parks less accessible.
• Accessible parking spaces must be located in the part of the parking area that is closest to the facility that they serve. At a grocery store, that means near the front entrance; at the existing parking structure, that means near the elevators on each level. However, one could make the argument that the Mickey & Friends parking structure is not the closest parking to the parks; hotel and DTD parking are closer, as are the bus stops and drop-off lot on the east side. This is a murky argument that would be tough to enforce, but it's a unique circumstance (different from a campus, where there is no one "main" facility served by multiple parking locations) and I think it could be argued convincingly
• That pesky "reasonable accommodation" clause. It's tough to define exactly what must be done to meet it, but I think it's "reasonable" that a location charging $20+ to park more than a half-mile from their facility would need to provide some sort of transportation service to the facility entrance. Relocating wheelchair rentals (or even letting guests borrow them for free to get to the main entrance) would not meet this; forcing people who don't routinely use mobility devices to use them wouldn't pass muster

I also can't see them doing a whole lot to spruce up the existing tram path to make it a pedestrian route. I don't remember the specifics on the Eastern Gateway walkway, but I think it was about 30-50' wide. The existing tram path is about 30' wide with narrow landscaped buffers on either side, hemmed in by Disneyland Drive and backstage facilities. In order to accommodate the massive pedestrian volumes, they would likely need to keep the width the same (or expand it), which doesn't leave much room for a meaningful DTD expansion there. They could add some ODV and other kiosks, but there isn't space for meaningful retail, dining, or convenience facilities in that area. The main route will likely go through DTD, which will need some modifications to meet the increased traffic

I agree that the trams will most likely be removed as part of this project, but I can't see how they could also get rid of the accessible shuttles. And if those shuttles remain, it's likely that people will try to "cheat" the system just like they do with the disabled passes in the parks, leading to poor service for the people who truly need them. I struggle to see Disney building a real transportation system here, but there really aren't many other good options.

 

[SSG]

Hmmm.

Received BLD2017-04866 WALT DISNEY WORLD CO 1415 S DISNEYLAND DR SP4 Disneyland - Pinocchio SP-4 Parking Lot - Demolition: 704 s.ft existing tram refueling station (B occupancy), parking lot pole lights, cap utilities.

 

[The_Mesh_Hatter]

I think that would appear to be the easiest solution, but it neglects the whole exit route down the ramp on the south side of the entrance lanes that go onto DL Drive.

My guess is that they want to expand to the right (north) as the lanes divide to enter the M&F structure. In your first photo, the building under the caption "West Pl." is the new emergency command post that was built within the last three or four years. What your photo doesn't show is the new K-9 unit facility and APD substation trailers to the north and east. It would make more sense to route the incoming traffic into the northern portion of M&F. It would be tight and somewhat awkward, but doable. And they would have to rebuild their new command post. Ooopsie!

You have a good point. Revisiting the roads, you need new lanes going both directions. So I revised my model a bit:

I added three new lanes in the area you discussed, that would presumably funnel into the toll booth area.

Then three more lanes cutting under Micky & Friends where the tram goes, providing output from the new lot. Lanes feeding in and out of the *new* duel structure complex will increase from 10 --> 16, while structure capacity would increase 50%. So they're scaling up access appropriately. Ball Road will be just as big of a mess as it currently is, at worst.

But. Maybe Disney will get fancy. What if the extend the fly-over ramp to have a lane or two feeding into the new toll extension?

For those unfamiliar, the the ramp crosses over Ball Road and ends at a freeway exit. So adding more capacity to ramp is really the only way to get rid of Ball Road traffic.

 

[shortstop]

Hmmm.

Received BLD2017-04866 WALT DISNEY WORLD CO 1415 S DISNEYLAND DR SP4 Disneyland - Pinocchio SP-4 Parking Lot - Demolition: 704 s.ft existing tram refueling station (B occupancy), parking lot pole lights, cap utilities.

Isn’t that the thing they just added like a year ago?

 

[jmuboy]

Isn’t that the thing they just added like a year ago?

Yes. What a mess. This version 3.0 expansion of the resort will be interesting to watch. Just happy we are getting more.

 

[The_Mesh_Hatter]

What other ideas do you have to connect the ramp with the new garage? Disney already has the toll booths localized at Mickey and Friends. The two lots will share the same toll booth plaza, knowing Disney. Disneyland and DCA share their ticket booths. From there, going right gets you up to Mickey and Friends, turning left will lead out of M&F and then immediately back into the new structure.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

I'm currently a design reviewer for the ADA office of one of the country's largest transit agencies, and I disagree. I tend to work mostly with infrastructure, and this is more of an operational issue, but from what I've seen it would put Disney is a very risky legal position...and we all know how much Disney's legal team likes avoiding those.

• Modifications to existing facilities cannot make them less accessible. If a building has a ramp leading somewhere, that ramp cannot be removed without providing access to that same area (like a platform lift or elevator). Disney currently provides shuttles from their remote parking facility to the parks; they would have an extraordinarily difficult time removing that, even if the trams for able-bodied guests were also taken out of service. Because the distance is so far (about a half-mile on the tram route, at least 2/3mi through DTD), it's hard to see how this would not be making the parks less accessible.
• Accessible parking spaces must be located in the part of the parking area that is closest to the facility that they serve. At a grocery store, that means near the front entrance; at the existing parking structure, that means near the elevators on each level. However, one could make the argument that the Mickey & Friends parking structure is not the closest parking to the parks; hotel and DTD parking are closer, as are the bus stops and drop-off lot on the east side. This is a murky argument that would be tough to enforce, but it's a unique circumstance (different from a campus, where there is no one "main" facility served by multiple parking locations) and I think it could be argued convincingly
• That pesky "reasonable accommodation" clause. It's tough to define exactly what must be done to meet it, but I think it's "reasonable" that a location charging $20+ to park more than a half-mile from their facility would need to provide some sort of transportation service to the facility entrance. Relocating wheelchair rentals (or even letting guests borrow them for free to get to the main entrance) would not meet this; forcing people who don't routinely use mobility devices to use them wouldn't pass muster

I also can't see them doing a whole lot to spruce up the existing tram path to make it a pedestrian route. I don't remember the specifics on the Eastern Gateway walkway, but I think it was about 30-50' wide. The existing tram path is about 30' wide with narrow landscaped buffers on either side, hemmed in by Disneyland Drive and backstage facilities. In order to accommodate the massive pedestrian volumes, they would likely need to keep the width the same (or expand it), which doesn't leave much room for a meaningful DTD expansion there. They could add some ODV and other kiosks, but there isn't space for meaningful retail, dining, or convenience facilities in that area. The main route will likely go through DTD, which will need some modifications to meet the increased traffic

I agree that the trams will most likely be removed as part of this project, but I can't see how they could also get rid of the accessible shuttles. And if those shuttles remain, it's likely that people will try to "cheat" the system just like they do with the disabled passes in the parks, leading to poor service for the people who truly need them. I struggle to see Disney building a real transportation system here, but there really aren't many other good options.

THANK YOU! I agree with everything you say. Disney gets away with more than people think with respect to ADA.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

You have a good point. Revisiting the roads, you need new lanes going both directions. So I revised my model a bit:

I added three new lanes in the area you discussed, that would presumably funnel into the toll booth area.

Then three more lanes cutting under Micky & Friends where the tram goes, providing output from the new lot. Lanes feeding in and out of the *new* duel structure complex will increase from 10 --> 16, while structure capacity would increase 50%. So they're scaling up access appropriately. Ball Road will be just as big of a mess as it currently is, at worst.

But. Maybe Disney will get fancy. What if the extend the fly-over ramp to have a lane or two feeding into the new toll extension?

For those unfamiliar, the the ramp crosses over Ball Road and ends at a freeway exit. So adding more capacity to ramp is really the only way to get rid of Ball Road traffic.

I still think they will have to demo the new emergency command center (the large white rectangle adjoining your three new green entrance lanes, in addition to the new tram service center in Pinocchio lot.

 

[Disney Irish]

Hmmm.

Received BLD2017-04866 WALT DISNEY WORLD CO 1415 S DISNEYLAND DR SP4 Disneyland - Pinocchio SP-4 Parking Lot - Demolition: 704 s.ft existing tram refueling station (B occupancy), parking lot pole lights, cap utilities.

Its funny, no one really commented on how fast this was filed. We could start seeing construction by just after the new year. So we won't have to guess much longer about the configuration of lanes, it'll come in the next couple months.

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

This was some of the same comments I heard when SWL:GE was still a rumor. "There's no room, they can't move backstage facilities." "They will never move xyz offsite as they need it onsite."

And look they moved a lot offsite. So just because you can't see it happening doesn't mean it won't happen.

In fact one of the first rumors I heard after they purchased the Manchester properties was that TDA was going to move there. That still could happen. Whats the difference if the TDA building is at the back of the property or across the street, its the same distance. In fact it might be good for some of those guys to have to actually walk across the street to access the parks. They'll get a good idea of what guests go through.

So in my mind they could effectively move most of rest of the backstage stuff over there and reclaim all the real estate.

Also they can reconfigure or move the fireworks. They can also use different shell that shoot higher so the fallout is less. There are many things that can be done. I'm betting a lot of that is already being done for when SWL:GE opens as part of it in the same fallout zone as Toontown. And we know that they aren't going to close SWL:GE every night for fireworks.

Disagree. I don't believe they will demolish TDA in my lifetime. The three entertainment buildings have to be onsite--they can't drive parade floats down city streets several times a day. The onsite warehouse is essential--they already have offsite warehouses. But this big warehouse is the staging point for the smaller delivery trains that go around the resort every day. If they thought they could move the motor pool offsite, they would have for SWL instead of relocating it against Ball Rd. Basically, that leaves the various ride maintenance facilities--mechanical, electrical, paint, etc. This is the guts of an "amusement" park--the amusements, the rides. Finding this much acreage nearby is prohibitively difficult, not to mention the logistical nightmare that results. As for the fireworks, I think you're wrong. My sources (and my own analysis of the plot plan) tell me that most of the guest area of SWL is outside the primary fallout zone.

I can't tell you the countless hours I've talked about this with people I know who witness all this first hand--some I've known for decades. It's been a long time since I worked in the park during college and after. But I have deep roots at the resort. I don't claim to be infallible. But I think I've got a pretty good grasp of the situation. Case in point--for years I expected that the Staff shops north of CBJ/Pooh were living on borrowed time. Actually, I expected them to move to Ball Lot. Personally, I would have located the Bakery offsite, rather on the West end of Ball Lot. There were rumors for years that they would move Circle D Ranch off site. I just never expected them to go as far as Chino.

But I think my assessment is accurate. I think there is only around 10% reduction they can achieve with relocating backstage support facilities. And where I think Disney has been most incompetent is in how they used their acreage for DCA. They put a hotel with a whopping footprint on the East side of DL Drive. They built CM and support facilities at ground level, rather than basement or second floor. Yes, it's cheaper to build these metal industrial buildings. But it eats up land, which is the one commodity they can't replace.

 

[Disney Irish]

Disagree. I don't believe they will demolish TDA in my lifetime. The three entertainment buildings have to be onsite--they can't drive parade floats down city streets several times a day. The onsite warehouse is essential--they already have offsite warehouses. But this big warehouse is the staging point for the smaller delivery trains that go around the resort every day. If they thought they could move the motor pool offsite, they would have for SWL instead of relocating it against Ball Rd. Basically, that leaves the various ride maintenance facilities--mechanical, electrical, paint, etc. This is the guts of an "amusement" park--the amusements, the rides. Finding this much acreage nearby is prohibitively difficult, not to mention the logistical nightmare that results. As for the fireworks, I think you're wrong. My sources (and my own analysis of the plot plan) tell me that most of the guest area of SWL is outside the primary fallout zone.

I can't tell you the countless hours I've talked about this with people I know who witness all this first hand--some I've known for decades. It's been a long time since I worked in the park during college and after. But I have deep roots at the resort. I don't claim to be infallible. But I think I've got a pretty good grasp of the situation. Case in point--for years I expected that the Staff shops north of CBJ/Pooh were living on borrowed time. Actually, I expected them to move to Ball Lot. Personally, I would have located the Bakery offsite, rather on the West end of Ball Lot. There were rumors for years that they would move Circle D Ranch off site. I just never expected them to go as far as Chino.

But I think my assessment is accurate. I think there is only around 10% reduction they can achieve with relocating backstage support facilities. And where I think Disney has been most incompetent is in how they used their acreage for DCA. They put a hotel with a whopping footprint on the East side of DL Drive. They built CM and support facilities at ground level, rather than basement or second floor. Yes, it's cheaper to build these metal industrial buildings. But it eats up land, which is the one commodity they can't replace.

While you could be right, I don't claim to have any inside information, I think you miss an important point. Plans change all the time, what could have not happened previously is now in the realm of possibility. Just because those that you talked to previously don't believe something will happen doesn't mean it isn't possible.

So it is very possible they can move more of the backstage facilities just across the street to the Manchester property behind Carousel. Its not far and still within "the resort". For example why can't the staging warehouse be there? Or TDA themselves? For example why can't TDA take up the Immigration building when the lease is up? Or why can't they have the ride maintenance over there?

Point is now that they aren't using the Manchester property for the Eastern Transportation Hub, at least for now, they can use it for something else.

As for the fireworks, I have personal knowledge on this one. You can have shells that shoot just a bit higher that have less fall out. The local amusement park that I worked at did this. They had to because the location they shot off from had guests in front and left and right, and housing behind where they shot off the shells. So they had to get ones that went a bit higher. Disney chooses shells that only go a certain height because they want it to explode at a certain height over the castle. This can change, and will likely have to.

 

[Disney Irish]

And where I think Disney has been most incompetent is in how they used their acreage for DCA. They put a hotel with a whopping footprint on the East side of DL Drive. They built CM and support facilities at ground level, rather than basement or second floor. Yes, it's cheaper to build these metal industrial buildings. But it eats up land, which is the one commodity they can't replace.

And I just thought of this, with Marvel Land coming why couldn't those DCA facilities still be built into the basement of Marvel? From what I heard those were always meant to be temporary facilities that turned into semi-permanent. Now that Marvel is coming they can make more permanent facilities into the land.

I really do think Disney is going to reconfigure a lot more of their backstage facilities to make better use of the available land in the next 3-5 years. Since its a big jigsaw puzzle things just takes time. And now that a large piece has been put into place with the location of the new parking structure that means more pieces can fall into place. By the 75th I'm betting the resort will look different in how you enter and where things are located.

 

[Ismael Flores]

That's quite the walk. Especially after a long day in the parks. Had to park in the Simba (?) lot once and walk to the gates from there and it was miserable when going back to the car.
If you're building on top of a parking lot, wouldn't those 500 spaces on the ground floor remain?

I think once the tram road is themed and maybe a few small vending booths added, the walk would seem more manageable. Walking long distances on a sidewalk with nothing to see and do does seem to make things more undesirable and feel long.

 

[mickEblu]

I think once the tram road is themed and maybe a few small vending booths added, the walk would seem more manageable. Walking long distances on a sidewalk with nothing to see and do does seem to make things more undesirable and feel long.

Yea maybe in the morning on fresh feet but on the way back after a long day it's brutal.

 

[Ismael Flores]

Tlhey essentially got what they wanted - no bridge over Harbor, and continued easy pedestrian access to/from DLR and their businesses. The spokesperson from the local business association representing the merchandts has gone on record to say they are pleased with Disney's decision. I'm thinking they're pretty happy with this outcome.

Im hoping Disney goes with the plan of closing off the transportation drop off on Harbor. Rerouted the monorailand move the existing pathway to somewhere where they had planned on moving to the area by the proposed bridge ramp.

Then they could go ahead with Marvel and be ready for whenever they go ahead with eastern changes.
Maybe start giving these business a reason to start worrying

 

[Ismael Flores]

I'm currently a design reviewer for the ADA office of one of the country's largest transit agencies, and I disagree. I tend to work mostly with infrastructure, and this is more of an operational issue, but from what I've seen it would put Disney is a very risky legal position...and we all know how much Disney's legal team likes avoiding those.

• Modifications to existing facilities cannot make them less accessible. If a building has a ramp leading somewhere, that ramp cannot be removed without providing access to that same area (like a platform lift or elevator). Disney currently provides shuttles from their remote parking facility to the parks; they would have an extraordinarily difficult time removing that, even if the trams for able-bodied guests were also taken out of service. Because the distance is so far (about a half-mile on the tram route, at least 2/3mi through DTD), it's hard to see how this would not be making the parks less accessible.
• Accessible parking spaces must be located in the part of the parking area that is closest to the facility that they serve. At a grocery store, that means near the front entrance; at the existing parking structure, that means near the elevators on each level. However, one could make the argument that the Mickey & Friends parking structure is not the closest parking to the parks; hotel and DTD parking are closer, as are the bus stops and drop-off lot on the east side. This is a murky argument that would be tough to enforce, but it's a unique circumstance (different from a campus, where there is no one "main" facility served by multiple parking locations) and I think it could be argued convincingly
• That pesky "reasonable accommodation" clause. It's tough to define exactly what must be done to meet it, but I think it's "reasonable" that a location charging $20+ to park more than a half-mile from their facility would need to provide some sort of transportation service to the facility entrance. Relocating wheelchair rentals (or even letting guests borrow them for free to get to the main entrance) would not meet this; forcing people who don't routinely use mobility devices to use them wouldn't pass muster

I also can't see them doing a whole lot to spruce up the existing tram path to make it a pedestrian route. I don't remember the specifics on the Eastern Gateway walkway, but I think it was about 30-50' wide. The existing tram path is about 30' wide with narrow landscaped buffers on either side, hemmed in by Disneyland Drive and backstage facilities. In order to accommodate the massive pedestrian volumes, they would likely need to keep the width the same (or expand it), which doesn't leave much room for a meaningful DTD expansion there. They could add some ODV and other kiosks, but there isn't space for meaningful retail, dining, or convenience facilities in that area. The main route will likely go through DTD, which will need some modifications to meet the increased traffic

I agree that the trams will most likely be removed as part of this project, but I can't see how they could also get rid of the accessible shuttles. And if those shuttles remain, it's likely that people will try to "cheat" the system just like they do with the disabled passes in the parks, leading to poor service for the people who truly need them. I struggle to see Disney building a real transportation system here, but there really aren't many other good options.

They can probably make room to widen the tram route by not only modifying the landscaping which is quite wide. There is also plenty of wasted space within Disneyland boundaries in along the tram route. Small commercial structure can easily be added using parts of The landscape and fencing area. I don’t think they would do it though because some of the articles state that the new hotel will have retail and dining on the bottom floor. So any new walkway on the tram would most likely have small structures on what is now landscape land to break the long dull feelof a long stretch of walkway.

Also Disney could still offer ADA shuttles but they can easily have them not use the existing tram route. Instead they could reroute them to just drop closer to the DTD area thru other existing car lanes. It would be nice if they brought back the double decker buses back too