New Disneyland Parking Garage and Transportation Hub

[Darkbeer1]

Since this group is interested in the building details, lets talk about the ramps on both sides of the actual bridge. As stated, the bridge height is going to be about 20 feet, but that more than likely includes a fence. You need 16 feet of true clearance underneath it for the roadway. And lets say 4 feet is the actual structure, and the fence places it over the 20 foot comment.

ADA laws says a 1 in 12 grade is the max allowed, so for every 12 feet, you can only raise the height one foot, and there is also a requirement for a flat "rest" area every 30 feet (think the Monorail ramp and how it zigzags in Tomorrowland). (And there some other options with lesser slope designs)

So we are looking at about a 900 foot ramp needed on each end of the bridge.

So take that into consideration, and this is without needing an elevator.

If you look at the Las Vegas version, they opted for elevators and escalators for access to shorten the space needed to build them. But this has major impact on volume, especially a breakdown. Look at the Mickey and Friends Structure and the back ups at the elevators there for example.

 

[truecoat]

With three adjacent, above average hotels going in (plots in blue) and the new pedestrian portal (little green spot) I'd be putting plans in place to do everything possible to funnel hotel guests through my mall as they go to and from the parks. And if I had extra cash (a tall order considering all the rent they must be losing due to their chronic vacancy rate) I'd consider working with the city to run some sort of pedestrian bridge from their second level (near the future HOB) to a convenient spot across the street (orange line would be an example route).

We'll see...

I know it's only an early illustration but the hotel going on the Anaheim Plaza site has what appears to be a pedestrian bridge to AGW.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Ooo is that a monorail I see in the rendering? Geez, AGW was really going to be something, wasn't it?

Oh yes, and so was WestCot... when this concept art was made, AGW was supposed to tie all three (yes, "3") parks together (Katella CM Lot being the third).

Sometimes it is fun to look back and see what was hoped and dreamed for...

And what did we get, DCA version 1 and AGW (Pointe Anaheim) was still a work in progress (finally opened in a much smaller form in 2008), and no transportation back in the early 2000's.

But going back in history, we can see some of the same issues we are facing today.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/15/local/me-gardenwalk15

>>
Shortly after an outdoor project, then called Pointe Anaheim, was proposed, Disney lawyers filed hundreds of pages of objections.

The company also funded groups that criticized the plans and sponsored public meetings to air its complaints. At the time, Downtown Disney was still in the works.

Disney later withdrew its opposition when developers agreed to limit signs, increase parking and change traffic routes. But the project stalled again a few years ago, in part because of an economic downturn after the Sept. 11 attacks, and the demolished site sat as an empty fenced lot.<<

So the "fight" continues, but then it isn't A vs B, it is multiple groups all fighting for different things, and somehow one group is the referee in this matter, but also has a vested interest (aka the city). Should be interesting to follow the story for the next few years, and yes, it will take that long for everything to sort itself out, even if parts of the issue are finished first....

 

[Darkbeer1]

Let me add a few more points about the city of Anaheim and Disney and how they deal with each other. Yes, it is a two-way street, but Disney does not get everything they want. Let's talk about traffic and things off of Disney property.

Disney lost the rights to take trams (non-street legal) over Disneyland Drive (formerly West). They also lost in a battle on as to who can control traffic flow onto their property. They wanted to be able to use their own employees (CM's) to direct traffic off of city streets. The city, being influenced by the Police Union and others, nixed the idea, and why Disney has been forced to pay Millions to the city for the Police to do the work. (Over $5 Million in 2014)

The current Mickey and Friends Trams run totally on Disney Property, in fact, Disneyland Drive was designed to allow the “tramway” to go underneath it. (Back when Disney had more influence, including getting the city to build the Parking Structure, and then have a lease-back agreement to Disney to operate it (break even deal, so the city would finally recoup its costs)

Also, it is the city that can close parking lots/structures entrances and exits when they want to, and not Disney. The DCA access road that has been converted to getting cars off of Katella to be sent to Toy Story Lot, and that includes specific times when it should happen.

Since the city owns and operates the Anaheim Convention Center, there has been a lot of deals made in regards to parking lots, including the use to have cars park at Angel Stadium (usually Cast Members) that it also owned by the city. But you will see Disney allowing parking on the Toy Story and Simba Lots when the Convention Center is busy.

Disney also has made deals with the city and other governmental agencies in regards as to getting employees to use public transportation to get to/from work, including picking up some of the costs to the employees. (Disney loves those tax credits)

So what it comes to is the city has to take a much larger view of the area, and that includes Disney, non-Disney businesses, and city owned properties such as the Convention Center and Sports Venues, and everyone that works and uses them. Plus also the residents that live in the city. It is a balancing issue. As a city resident, I have good roads, lots of trees (the city will give you them for your property if meet some requirements), a city owned Utility that offers low rates on electric and water rates. good Police and Fire departments, parks and more. A lot of that money comes from the taxes they collect from the Anaheim Resort District, including the Hotel Tax visitors have to pay. Sales tax is low, as the city doesn't add a surcharge (over 2% less than some places in Los Angeles County). Of course, I pay property taxes that the city gets, but in general, the costs for overall taxes paid to the city is less than most places in California, and one of the reasons I finally bought a house here in Anaheim. (I have always lived in Southern California). So it comes down to what is best for the city, in the cities viewpoint, and not just Disney.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

So it comes down to what is best for the city, in the cities viewpoint, and not just Disney.

This is true of any municipality, which is one of the primary reasons Walt Disney sought to create the Reedy Creek Improvement District in Florida, which gave the company a high degree of autonomy from local authorities within the borders of the WDW property. Since the entire plan for DLR's eastern expansion is subject to review by the City of Anaheim I would not be surprised if Disney is asked to tweak the pedestrian circulation in their proposal.

 

[Darkbeer1]

This is true of any municipality, which is one of the primary reasons Walt Disney sought to create the Reedy Creek Improvement District in Florida, which gave the company high degree of autonomy from local authorities within the borders of the WDW property. Since the entire plan for DLR's eastern expansion is subject to review by the City of Anaheim I would not be surprised if Disney is asked to tweak pedestrian circulation in their proposal.

I agree, as I have said, this is a work in progress, and all we are really looking at is just "Phase 1" of a multi phase project, such as all the west side work (but Disney has a lot more freedom in that regards due to prior approvals, similar to the Star Wars Land project), but the roadway work has the other non-Disney properties coming into play.

But even the Star Wars Land work has to be signed off on by the State of California through DOSH and it's Permanent Amusement Ride division, and the Fire Marshall has to come to agreements as to egress and what actual additional capacity will be permitted. And of course, OSHA gets involved in CM safety (think Alice in Wonderland or Space Mountain).

Things have changed a lot since Walt building Disneyland in a year and a day. (Well, sounds great, but a lot of things were done before construction actually started.)

 

[Stevek]

Ooo is that a monorail I see in the rendering? Geez, AGW was really going to be something, wasn't it?

Would have been beautiful. Might still have ended up empty but at least a beautiful empty.

 

[TP2000]

I know it's only an early illustration but the hotel going on the Anaheim Plaza site has what appears to be a pedestrian bridge to AGW.

View attachment 158722

I don't think it's actually a pedestrian bridge, as that structure already exists. It was built with GardenWalk in 2008 and appears to hide large air conditioning units for the nearby mall business like the bowling alley. It just sort of ends in midair, and is used as a marquee of sorts for that parking entry, as seen below.

This is one of those horrible days when Disneyland has to force a few thousand cars into the GardenWalk parking garage via Disneyland Drive, the Tram Route and Disney Way. Can you imagine how mad you'd be if you ended up here 30 minutes after you pulled off I-5 and the kids in the back seat want to go to Disneyland?!? This is exactly the sort of thing the Eastern Gateway is designed to avoid.

The Google search for this image came up with a photo from Darkbeer's famous smugmug account by the way. Funny how that works!

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

Bingo. The paying customers need to come first, then once they are taken care of you can figure out how to take care of the employees. The bus routes will be reworked, new stops will be created.

Quite frankly, that bus stop on Harbor right on Disneyland's doorstep is an eyesore. Every time I drive by there I see homeless folks camped out, or the mentally deranged talking to the monorail beam while a handful of CM's in their uniforms try to pretend its not happening.

That type of transit facility needs to be moved elsewhere, it's just not a good visual at Disneyland's doorstep. Neither the homeless camps or the uniformed CM's sprawled out on their phones still wearing their Haunted Mansion uniforms.

The problem is that they never get around to figuring out how to take care of the employees. And the reason there are CMs in costume at the transit stop on Harbor or at WalMart is because Pressler and Harris wanted to save money on costuming (a decision I believe Walt would never have made). Hell, yes, it's bad show. But it's bad show that Disney created their own damn selves.

The compensation and work conditions for CMs has deteriorated so much since I worked there in college that it's unrecognizable. In my day, Disneyland was a good college job and they only hired the best. People could work their way up and raise a family. Now it's largely a dead-end unless you claw your way into the executive ranks. Even what remains of middle management gets screwed (and they just eliminated another layer).

I wish everyone who was so dismissive of CMs on forums like this had to wear an identifying button when they entered the resort so CMs could see who it was who held them in such contempt.

 

[Darkbeer1]

OM, I think the vast majority of posters on many of these type of boards do have sympathy and also understand that Disney is not perfect.

Alas, there is a small percentage that think "Disney can do NO wrong", and if a CM is having "not the best day", they need to complain about it.

Now, when I found a CM at Tom Sawyer Island hiding in a cave on their phone years ago, it was a bit of a shock, but I didn't post about it until now. Clearly a violation of company rules, but not worth getting that person in trouble. But those stories are very rare.

While I have never worked hourly for any Theme/Amusement park, nor even in a salary position. I do understand, I have dealt with contracts/agreements with parks since the 1980's, so I have dealt with many levels of the company. One of my first contacts was due to my father, a marine scientist working with (but not for) Hubbs-SeaWorld, the non-profit that SeaWorld started prior to even opening its first park. I also got involved in helping out, and then working for the San Diego Science Fair, working with the educational department. And once I got involved in the bar business, we made a deal with Anheuser Busch when they bought the company. We were close by, and already had other deals with AB, and ended up getting the partial kegs that they stopped using (They would only serve free samples during the first half of its shelf life, and any partial kegs found their way to our place). In return, we gave them discounts and hosted a few events for the staff.

So we had entry level emplyees coming in, but then again, when they hosted events like Ice Skating shows, the main stars would also come in for dinner and drink after work. Interesting to see Scott Hamilton come in with his then wife....

So I have always been associated with parks since a kid, just never a "true" employee, and I think that I should leave it at that, due to NDA's.

I have also reported for decades on Management issues at multiple parks, sometimes creating some upset folks. But since it was a "second"job, I was lucky I didn't have to kiss up to them

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

I don't think it's actually a pedestrian bridge, as that structure already exists. It was built with GardenWalk in 2008 and appears to hide large air conditioning units for the nearby mall business like the bowling alley. It just sort of ends in midair, and is used as a marquee of sorts for that parking entry, as seen below.

This is one of those horrible days when Disneyland has to force a few thousand cars into the GardenWalk parking garage via Disneyland Drive, the Tram Route and Disney Way. Can you imagine how mad you'd be if you ended up here 30 minutes after you pulled off I-5 and the kids in the back seat want to go to Disneyland?!? This is exactly the sort of thing the Eastern Gateway is designed to avoid.

The Google search for this image came up with a photo from Darkbeer's famous smugmug account by the way. Funny how that works!

Yes and no. The rendering for the hotel does show some kind of bridge spanning the distance from the Hotel to AGW, however, if you compare it to Google Earth, the bridge appears to go over the Northern portion of the AGW bridge covering the utilities excluding the three large HVAC units (I assume those are giant condensers with the big fans in the top).

 

[Old Mouseketeer]

OM, I think the vast majority of posters on many of these type of boards do have sympathy and also understand that Disney is not perfect.

< snip >

I have also reported for decades on Management issues at multiple parks, sometimes creating some upset folks. But since it was a "second"job, I was lucky I didn't have to kiss up to them

Look, DB, I'm not trying to get into a p-ing match over this. Hell, I'm delighted you are here, especially in light of my disappointments with the management of that other site.

But I absolutely have a chip on my shoulder over how Disney treats their CMs AND gouges their customers. Is it the best game in town for entertainment, probably yes. Have I loved it since growing up practically next door, also an emphatic yes. Am I disappointed in the many short-sighted and sometimes counter-productive choices they have made? Oh hell, yes.

I'm not trying to pick fights here. But Disney needs to be held accountable. What we have seen of the proposal for the Eastern Gateway is flawed. The problems on Harbor Blvd. did not happen in a vacuum. Some of it is the result of unforeseen growth over 60 years. But some of it is the result of Disney getting its way, especially with DCA 1.0. I am against letting Disney clear out all transit uses from their Harbor entrance at the expense of guests and employees. I don't care if someone thinks the bus stops are an eyesore--they are a necessity. I absolutely oppose eliminating them in favor of auto traffic. That's a giant step backwards. I hope OCTA and LA MTA see this and fight it aggressively.

Disney doesn't own Anaheim. It doesn't own Harbor Blvd. I'm in favor of the East Parking Structure--it's been part of the Master Plan and should have been built years ago. But parts of the plan need to be debated and modified. Disney shouldn't get a free ride for bad decisions and lack of leadership over the past 20 years.

 

[DDLand]

Look, DB, I'm not trying to get into a p-ing match over this. Hell, I'm delighted you are here, especially in light of my disappointments with the management of that other site.

But I absolutely have a chip on my shoulder over how Disney treats their CMs AND gouges their customers. Is it the best game in town for entertainment, probably yes. Have I loved it since growing up practically next door, also an emphatic yes. Am I disappointed in the many short-sighted and sometimes counter-productive choices they have made? Oh hell, yes.

I'm not trying to pick fights here. But Disney needs to be held accountable. What we have seen of the proposal for the Eastern Gateway is flawed. The problems on Harbor Blvd. did not happen in a vacuum. Some of it is the result of unforeseen growth over 60 years. But some of it is the result of Disney getting its way, especially with DCA 1.0. I am against letting Disney clear out all transit uses from their Harbor entrance at the expense of guests and employees. I don't care if someone thinks the bus stops are an eyesore--they are a necessity. I absolutely oppose eliminating them in favor of auto traffic. That's a giant step backwards. I hope OCTA and LA MTA see this and fight it aggressively.

Disney doesn't own Anaheim. It doesn't own Harbor Blvd. I'm in favor of the East Parking Structure--it's been part of the Master Plan and should have been built years ago. But parts of the plan need to be debated and modified. Disney shouldn't get a free ride for bad decisions and lack of leadership over the past 20 years.

You make it seem like Anaheim is the one getting the short end of the stick, when @Darkbeer1 seems to be saying it's getting exactly what it wants. I'm sure Disney may look at clearing up Harbor as a plus, but the City wants this too.

I'm picturing busy commuters getting caught behind cars turning in and out of hotel and restaurant entrances, buses pulling into station stops, and pedestrians from small town USA being thrown into a foreign urban environment trying to cross the street. All this must create a nightmare for drivers.

Anything the city can do to make it more manageable is in the cards. I doubt it's going to be perfect, but it should be so much better by the end. If Anaheim has to choose between keeping tens of thousands of voting residents moving safely and quickly or a collection of lower priced motel and dining options there's no doubt which they're going to choose.

Now a lot of these problems are Disney's own creation, but at least now they have the intent to fix a number of them.

This project seems pretty solid. Not that this excuses them from many of your justifiable criticisms...

 

[DDLand]

Can I also say thank you to everyone for making this thread awesome! Especially @TP2000, @NobodyElse, and @Darkbeer1!

This is the most detail filled source for this project on the Internet. Ironically hosted on a site called WDWMagic.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Look, moving the public bus stop just makes sense. You are moving all the other transportation choices to Manchester.

ART and OCTA work together, and allow each other passes to be used on the other's system.

What to do with the LA Metro buses. They currently use the CM drop off area that is getting redone as a rest break before heading back to LA. They can easily design a special area for that at the new Hub, close to a restroom for the driver in the new hub.

How about the current mess at the stop, where you have no idea where your specific bus route will stop and pick you up. A new stop can be built with specific stops for each route clearly marked, similar to the Fullerton Train station bus bays.

Maybe make a deal with Anaheim GardenWalk, they have a large bus bay underground next to the 24 Hour Fitness that is underused. Let the LA Metro Route 460 and OCTA Route 83 take breaks there (end of route switching to the opposite direction). There is already a driver break room including restrooms available. And shade to keep the buses cool.

One of the main goals of the project is to spread out traffic in the area, and this move matches up with it.

 

[Darkbeer1]

You make it seem like Anaheim is the one getting the short end of the stick, when @Darkbeer1 seems to be saying it's getting exactly what it wants. I'm sure Disney may look at clearing up Harbor as a plus, but the City wants this too.

Just to clarify, it looks like the city will get much of what it wants, but they also have to do some give and take as part of the approval process.

Just because you are in the driver's seat, you still don't get to run traffic lights, and make turns without making sure the way is clear.

 

[Darkbeer1]

This is the most detail filled source for this project on the Internet. Ironically hosted on a site called WDWMagic.

I am interested in the project for many different reasons.

But I found this board and at least the readers/posters of this thread (subject) are interested in the "sausage making" involved in getting from the start line to the finish line. And they are level headed, they aren't taking a very one sided viewpoint and also open to different viewpoints. Also, personalities are not a focus. People are talking about the subject, and not who specifically is saying something.

I do have to admit, I have been guilty for getting slightly off-track since I haven't posted much on these type of boards lately in response to some comments.

But looks like next week we should hopefully get access to the staff reports from the city in regards to the proposal, giving us more things to talk about

So thanks to all those who have welcomed me, even if they don't agree with me 100% (and that is OK, it would get pretty boring if everyone was a "yes man". Heck, it was me not being one that has gotten me the media work in regards to Theme Parks and other things. Sometimes having someone playing Devil's advocate and making you look at something from a different viewpoint is important, and makes the end result much better.

 

[Stevek]

The property was bought as part of the AGW construction, and was a former Motel. Alas, AGW couldn't find a nearby property to buy to tie it into the project, which has changed since it's initial concept. Here is a link to that concept art...

http://www.watg.com/?pageid=3F653D89-3048-7B3D-C552726F702EF185

It was the Village Inn in the 1990's

Trying to figure out which street is which on that artwork...which is Katella for example?

 

[Darkbeer1]

Trying to figure out which street is which on that artwork...which is Katella for example?

You are looking towards the east, elevated over the Disneyland DCA Property.

Disney Way is the curved road on the left.

The Back road (Monorail going horizontally) is Clementine.

The gray less colorful area is the North east corner of Harbor and Katella.

The original plan of the Village Inn purchase (current vacant lot) was going to be a main Entrance to the Shopping mall.

The Grand Hotel would be where the Anaheim Plaza is now.

The building to the right of the Monorail Station is where the JW Marriott will be built.

And interesting to note, if you do look at the middle section, there is a lot of similarly between the drawing and the current AGW, starting with the Disney Way entrance including the stairs and the triangle building, the open plaza next to it, etc.

Hope that helps.

 

[NobodyElse]

Trying to figure out which street is which on that artwork...which is Katella for example?

I believe you should think of your POV being from the roof of the Hyperion (but not exactly). The foreground road is Harbor. The road on the left with prominently-featured monorail station/bridge would be Disney Way. That would make Katella the row of palm trees near the upper right corner of the picture. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.)

PS: I know somebody that worked for WATG. Her first assignment was designing bathroom buildings for the golf course at Aviara.