New Disneyland Parking Garage and Transportation Hub

[yookeroo]

I'm not either, but in an effort to assist those unfamiliar with the area visualize the crosswalk situation, perhaps this will help.
View attachment 158506

Note 1: If I misunderstood something, let me know so I can fix it.
Note 2: If it'll help, I can somewhat note the closed and remaining sidewalks on the west side.
Note 3: Remember, this is based on intelligent rumors of a plan that could easily change. No guarantees - no refunds.
Note 4: Not shown here (it would be just to the right of this image) is a crosswalk across Disney Way near the GardenWalk driveway. I have to wonder if there are plans to alter/move/remove that one.

Picture really helped. Thanks.

I guess you can skip the PowerPoint Darkbeer.

 

[Darkbeer1]

I'm not either, but in an effort to assist those unfamiliar with the area visualize the crosswalk situation, perhaps this will help.


Note 1: If I misunderstood something, let me know so I can fix it.
Note 2: If it'll help, I can somewhat note the closed and remaining sidewalks on the west side.
Note 3: Remember, this is based on intelligent rumors of a plan that could easily change. No guarantees - no refunds.
Note 4: Not shown here (it would be just to the right of this image) is a crosswalk across Disney Way near the GardenWalk driveway. I have to wonder if there are plans to alter/move/remove that one.

The one crosswalk I would change from yellow to red is the east one at the corner Harbor and Disney Way (between the Grand Legacy and current Anaheim Plaza).

The city's wish, well at least some employees that work there, is to get folks to use the crosswalk on Disney Way between the current AGW parking entrance and the "new" Pedestrian entrance next to Pumbaa.

Also note, the city sidewalks are not part of the filed planning request so we won't know for quite awhile, as the entire new bridge including ramps is up and running before any of these changes will happen.

The one area that will be discussed will be the new pathway being built under the power lines at the north east corner of Harbor and Disney Way to the "new" pedestrian entrance, so we might get some more insight as to how its impact might relate to the removal of certain crosswalks.

 

[thequirkysarah]

I'm not either, but in an effort to assist those unfamiliar with the area visualize the crosswalk situation, perhaps this will help.
View attachment 158506

Here's where the disconnect is for me. Eliminating some of the crosswalks doesn't actually make the number of pedestrians less, or the crosswalks any safer. Think of the pedestrians as water. If you have a cup of water with three holes in it and you plug up one hole it doesn't reduce the amount of water trying to get out, it only prolongs the time the water stays in the cup. It just puts a heavier load on the remaining crosswalks. The heaver load will actually encourage riskier behavior because wait times to cross will balloon and people's impatience will result in poor decision making.

If the idea is to actually make the crossings safer for pedestrians and cars then they need to encourage people to use the pedestrian bridge instead of the crosswalks. Take the load off of the crosswalks by making them less desirable. In this drawing it is still easier for people staying on Harbor to use the remaining crosswalks as opposed to the pedestrian bridge. The bridge is stupidly hard to get to, forcing pedestrians to walk blocks out of their way and then double back over those same blocks. It is the exact opposite of making things easier and more desirable. If the city really wants to alleviate traffic safety issues then they have to make access to the bridge easy. They need to offer back entrances onto the back passageway. Perhaps they could even have one public entrance to the back passageway located somewhere more central to the Harbor hotels.

Here's the kicker, it isn't only in the city's best interest to make things easier. It is also in Disney's best interest. If they don't make it easier to access the pedestrian bridge, then they are being shortsighted. People aren't going to go blocks out of their way to get on this bridge. They are going to overcrowd the few remaining crosswalks and subsequently overload whatever small security checkpoint Disney puts in place for non-bridge pedestrians. These backups are going to be a massive headache, and possibly a security issue, for Disney. This could be a real mistake.

 

[Earl Sweatpants]

....I'll stick to the M&F structure...

 

[Deleted member 107043]

The bridge is stupidly hard to get to, forcing pedestrians to walk blocks out of their way and then double back over those same blocks.

Yes, yes, yes. I wouldn't be surprised if the eastern portal only access doesn't make it past the planning review.

 

[NobodyElse]

The one crosswalk I would change from yellow to red is the east one at the corner Harbor and Disney Way (between the Grand Legacy and current Anaheim Plaza).

See? I all but predicted I'd have to make a change. That practically makes me a psychic in some circles. Consider it changed.

This one change will really only effect pedestrians heading up and down Harbor. (Example, that family staying at Castle Inn & Suites who wants to stroll up to Tony Roma's for ribs.) It would be a wash for everybody else heading to the new "Pedestrian Portal".

On that subject, here's a chunk of that little overlay I did earlier:

Note the current location of the GardenWalk crosswalk. If the "blueprint" is accurate, leaving the crosswalk as is would put people on that island that's clearly not intended for human habitation, and result in having to cross that new little left-hand-turn ingress lane. Based on this, I would predict that the crosswalk gets moved to the west side of the GardenWalk driveway, lining it up with the new pathway to the portal.

 

[TP2000]

I'm not either, but in an effort to assist those unfamiliar with the area visualize the crosswalk situation, perhaps this will help.
View attachment 158540

Note 1: If I misunderstood something, let me know so I can fix it.
EDIT: Original image changed to reflect elimination of North South Disney Way crosswalk.
Note 2: If it'll help, I can somewhat note the closed and remaining sidewalks on the west side.
Note 3: Remember, this is based on intelligent rumors of a plan that could easily change. No guarantees - no refunds.
Note 4: Not shown here (it would be just to the right of this image) is a crosswalk across Disney Way near the GardenWalk driveway. I have to wonder if there are plans to alter/move/remove that one.

Thank you! That is very helpful!

From Darkbeer's comments and documents, you could also add a closed crosswalk on the west side of Harbor; the north-south one that currently crosses over the shuttle entrance to the Esplanade just under the monorail beam directly across from Captain Kidd's. That crosswalk would go away in the renderings because the only pedestrian access from that side of Harbor goes into the CM Entrance area just north of that intersection.

 

[NobodyElse]

Thank you! That is very helpful!

From Darkbeer's comments and documents, you could also add a closed crosswalk on the west side of Harbor; the north-south one that currently crosses over the shuttle entrance to the Esplanade just under the monorail beam directly across from Captain Kidd's. That crosswalk would go away in the renderings because the only pedestrian access from that side of Harbor goes into the CM Entrance area just north of that intersection.

Yeah, I didn't really address much on the west side of Harbor because A) some of the driveways (not necessarily that one) would be moved / removed, and B) the assumption that if most or all of the sidewalk is gone (from Disney Way and the new bridge) the justification for any crosswalks would be gone.

 

[TP2000]

Yes, yes, yes. I wouldn't be surprised if the eastern portal only access doesn't make it past planning review.

It will be difficult to get to for some hotels. For some of the newer ones already built, like the Courtyard and Holiday Inn on Manchester, the walk would seem easier and more pleasant and only negligibly longer than down Harbor to the existing crosswalk. It will be up to the city Planning Commission at the upcoming meetings to determine if Disney's plans are acceptable, and then decide if the city wants to play along by shutting down some existing crosswalks.

But then the hard-nosed part of me thinks... So what? A private business like Disneyland has no legal requirement to provide easy access from all angles. Usually its in a businesses best interest to provide easy access to arriving customers, but sometimes it's better for a business to control and limit the access points.

It's a real pain getting into the park for anyone staying on Ball Road already, and Disneyland won't let you enter their property from the north side, you have to walk all the way around over freeways and major intersections. Because Disney decided they don't want to have to build and staff a park entry on the north side, they only want you to enter from the south or via monorail. Yet Anaheim has approved three nice new big corporate hotels that have been built on Ball Road in the last two years. It's a very long walk for them.

Same thing would be at work here. Some of the motels on Harbor are not going to be as conveniently placed to the new park entrance as they have been. It would be up to the city to determine if it has any legally binding ability to force Disneyland to make those access changes. And Disney will likely play along, to an extent.

But if Disney wanted to, tonight at Midnight they could permanently swing closed the big gates on Harbor Blvd. and close off all pedestrian access to the park from Harbor Blvd. They could tell motel guests they need to walk down to Katella and up Disneyland Drive and get into the park via Downtown Disney. It would be bad business to do that two years before the skybridge is built, but there's no law that says Disney has to keep those gates open.

Disneyland already pulls those gates closed whenever there's a big anti-police protest out on Harbor Blvd., which has been at least a half dozen times in the last few years. They staff CM's to tell pedestrians to "go around" to the Downtown Disney side until the protest clears.

 

[NobodyElse]

Here's where the disconnect is for me. Eliminating some of the crosswalks doesn't actually make the number of pedestrians less, or the crosswalks any safer. Think of the pedestrians as water. If you have a cup of water with three holes in it and you plug up one hole it doesn't reduce the amount of water trying to get out, it only prolongs the time the water stays in the cup. It just puts a heavier load on the remaining crosswalks. The heaver load will actually encourage riskier behavior because wait times to cross will balloon and people's impatience will result in poor decision making.

If the idea is to actually make the crossings safer for pedestrians and cars then they need to encourage people to use the pedestrian bridge instead of the crosswalks. Take the load off of the crosswalks by making them less desirable. In this drawing it is still easier for people staying on Harbor to use the remaining crosswalks as opposed to the pedestrian bridge. The bridge is stupidly hard to get to, forcing pedestrians to walk blocks out of their way and then double back over those same blocks. It is the exact opposite of making things easier and more desirable. If the city really wants to alleviate traffic safety issues then they have to make access to the bridge easy. They need to offer back entrances onto the back passageway. Perhaps they could even have one public entrance to the back passageway located somewhere more central to the Harbor hotels.

Here's the kicker, it isn't only in the city's best interest to make things easier. It is also in Disney's best interest. If they don't make it easier to access the pedestrian bridge, then they are being shortsighted. People aren't going to go blocks out of their way to get on this bridge. They are going to overcrowd the few remaining crosswalks and subsequently overload whatever small security checkpoint Disney puts in place for non-bridge pedestrians. These backups are going to be a massive headache, and possibly a security issue, for Disney. This could be a real mistake.

While your "cup of water" illustration may be accurate, I'm not sure it's entirely applicable here. They're plugging a hole, but they're also adding a new hole, with a urethane tube that wraps around the cup, eventually spilling the water right onto the East Esplanade. Darkbeer did some of the comparative example math for you in post #289.

Clearly (as some posters eluded to weeks ago) this can be interpreted as Disney's way of telling the Harbor Motels "We're not entirely concerned with your feelings". (That was my polite translation.) While part of me feels bad for those motels and their guests, another part realizes they've had it good for several decades. Some of them just might have to bite the bullet and lease a shuttle and hire a driver to retain their proximity advantage. Added cost would no doubt be added into the room charge.

Back to your cup analogy, even if all the walkers were forced to fewer crosswalks, it's still fewer points of potential contact. I think that'll be ultimately safer.

 

[truecoat]

Here's where the disconnect is for me. Eliminating some of the crosswalks doesn't actually make the number of pedestrians less, or the crosswalks any safer. Think of the pedestrians as water. If you have a cup of water with three holes in it and you plug up one hole it doesn't reduce the amount of water trying to get out, it only prolongs the time the water stays in the cup. It just puts a heavier load on the remaining crosswalks. The heaver load will actually encourage riskier behavior because wait times to cross will balloon and people's impatience will result in poor decision making.

If the idea is to actually make the crossings safer for pedestrians and cars then they need to encourage people to use the pedestrian bridge instead of the crosswalks. Take the load off of the crosswalks by making them less desirable. In this drawing it is still easier for people staying on Harbor to use the remaining crosswalks as opposed to the pedestrian bridge. The bridge is stupidly hard to get to, forcing pedestrians to walk blocks out of their way and then double back over those same blocks. It is the exact opposite of making things easier and more desirable. If the city really wants to alleviate traffic safety issues then they have to make access to the bridge easy. They need to offer back entrances onto the back passageway. Perhaps they could even have one public entrance to the back passageway located somewhere more central to the Harbor hotels.

Here's the kicker, it isn't only in the city's best interest to make things easier. It is also in Disney's best interest. If they don't make it easier to access the pedestrian bridge, then they are being shortsighted. People aren't going to go blocks out of their way to get on this bridge. They are going to overcrowd the few remaining crosswalks and subsequently overload whatever small security checkpoint Disney puts in place for non-bridge pedestrians. These backups are going to be a massive headache, and possibly a security issue, for Disney. This could be a real mistake.

Actually it won't be that bad. Anyone in a hotel south of Disney Way will have to use the new entrance. Some of the Hotel locations north of that will find the new entrance easier also. This eliminates many hotels from using that Manchester crossing.

I hope my rudimentary map is right...

 

[NobodyElse]

They need to offer back entrances onto the back passageway. Perhaps they could even have one public entrance to the back passageway located somewhere more central to the Harbor hotels.

I mentioned this in an earlier post.

That Best Western should be doing anything in their power to get permission to waste ONE of their back parking spaces and add a gate to the new path. They could add key card access to make it an exclusive perk, or man it with a "host" to collect 50 cents a head (or just charge adjacent motels for right of passage. They'd clean up.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

A private business like Disneyland has no legal requirement to provide easy access from all angles. Usually its in a businesses best interest to provide easy access to arriving customers, but sometimes it's better for a business to control and limit the access points.

That's all true, but if the goal is to ease pedestrian and vehicular traffic on Harbor it's hard to understand how this solves the problem. Sure, they'll reduce the number of pedestrian crossings, but they seem to be creating another mess by rerouting virtually all of the pedestrians to Disney Way in a circuitous route to Disneyland that is unnecessary (imagine what the security entrance at the eastern portal and the pathways leading to/from it are going to look like on busy days when the masses of tourists and locals using the adjacent garage converge). I don't get how this plan, at least the pedestrian piece, works for Disney, pedestrians, or the City of Anaheim.

Maybe there's more to it, but from a planning perspective wouldn't it make more sense to enlarge the crosswalks, maybe add a few at key points, and have local foot traffic enter the Resort from Harbor as it does now? Only guests in cars, taxis and shuttles, or those on foot in close proximity, would use the bridge from the new eastern portal.

 

[NobodyElse]

Actually it won't be that bad. Anyone in a hotel south of Disney Way will have to use the new entrance. Some of the Hotel locations north of that will find the new entrance easier also. This eliminates many hotels from using that Manchester crossing.

I hope my rudimentary map is right...

View attachment 158542

That's good enough for most of us. Residence Inn people will need to travel along the south side of Disney Way, but everything else is about right.

 

[thequirkysarah]

Actually it won't be that bad. Anyone in a hotel south of Disney Way will have to use the new entrance. Some of the Hotel locations north of that will find the new entrance easier also. This eliminates many hotels from using that Manchester crossing.

I hope my rudimentary map is right...

View attachment 158542

You really think that people below the closed intersection in red are going to choose the blue path over the green? (Yellow is the presumed shared path.) I doubt it. Maybe the last hotel or two before Disney Way. The other's won't.

Regardless of how pedestrians would choose to navigate the proposed changes, the plans still isn't great. If you really want to get Disney bound foot traffic off of Harbor sidewalks and into the back passage then you have to make it easier to get to the back passage. Forcing everyone into one entrance just isn't the best. It is inconvenient to a significant group of people and creates and unnecessary bottleneck for everyone. If you want to encourage the use of a new traffic pattern you have to make it the most desirable option. As of right now, it simply isn't.

EDIT: Thats not to say that Disney CAN'T do this. They certainly can. I can see how it would be desirable to them. But it would be disingenuous to claim that they are doing it to help with traffic flow for the city.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Some of them just might have to bite the bullet and lease a shuttle and hire a driver to retain their proximity advantage. .

Well, that is against city law. Hotels/Motels in the Resort District must use the ART system which is run by the city to get clean air credits.(Candy Cane Inn and the Majestic are grandfathered). I mentioned a new ART route might be created just for those Hotel/Motels.

 

[NobodyElse]

I mentioned a new ART route might be created just for those Hotel/Motels.

Ah, that's right. Makes sense.

 

[truecoat]

You really think that people below the closed intersection in red are going to choose the blue path over the green? (Yellow is the presumed shared path.) I doubt it. Maybe the last hotel or two before Disney Way. The other's won't.

You're talking about a block and a half difference between the two routes at their longest. Not having to cross two busy streets makes one route much more attractive.

Regardless of how pedestrians would choose to navigate the proposed changes, the plans still isn't great. If you really want to get Disney bound foot traffic off of Harbor sidewalks and into the back passage then you have to make it easier to get to the back passage. Forcing everyone into one entrance just isn't the best. It is inconvenient to a significant group of people and creates and unnecessary bottleneck for everyone. If you want to encourage the use of a new traffic pattern you have to make it the most desirable option. As of right now, it simply isn't.

EDIT: Thats not to say that Disney CAN'T do this. They certainly can. I can see how it would be desirable to them. But it would be disingenuous to claim that they are doing it to help with traffic flow for the city.

Not sure how it's a bottleneck when most people will use the other entrance.

 

[Darkbeer1]

In regards to Pedestrian flow, underused sidewalks include the south side of Disney Way and the east side of Harbor between Disney Way and Katella. This takes all the "south" end Hotels off the current busy sidewalk north of Disney Way. Also Hotels like the Residence Inn Maingate and Motel 6 to the east will also avoid using Harbor.

So those on Harbor between Manchester and Disney Way will have a quieter sidewalk to deal with in general.

The new pathways that are part of Disney proposal are wider and safer (no driveway crossings) and should be nicely themed.

And one key point, the city is also looking at safety and reducing accidents, and getting people to cross less driveways is a positive thing.

Since there is a new 4 star Hotel going in at the south east corner of Harbor and Disney Way, the city can require sidewalk improvements as part of the approval process, including wider pathways.

I have a funny feeling where I will be the evening of September 26th.

 

[Curious Constance]

So if I'm understanding correctly, there will still be access to the parks from Harbor, you just have to get to the Disneyland side of the street either going down by Hojo's and crossing or the other end of the block by Disney Way.

We usually stay at the Park Vue Inn, right next to the cross walk closest to the pedestrian entrance. Specifically to be close, and were planning on staying early next year sometime. Anyone know when the crosswalk will be closing?