New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

[flynnibus]

In theory, I agree with you… but in reality because DAS acts as a way for disabled guests to enter the standby line, Disney can only require the disabled guest wait as long as the current wait is for the non disabled guests … if they added on additional time to the disabled guests return time, then they are making it more difficult for the guest with special needs to access a good or service that is available for a non disabled guest to walk up and get in line to wait for.

Nah - they aren’t limited to have a true 1:1 - just that they have an equitable, integrated experience that accommodates their disability.

Take for instance accessible bus seating. It’s not uncommon for handicapped waits to be longer due to the limited number of seats available. They don’t have to guarantee a equal wait.

Opportunity being equal is far more important.

 

[flynnibus]

Let me clarify, and in agreement with you it's the number of DAS guests through the high priority queue that are not accurately accounted for in the initial G+ allotted distribution. Maybe?

Partially. It’s not accounted for in all the distributions… ll, g+, or DAS itself. The stand by estimate doesn’t have the forward visibility to varying high priority queue variations. So the feedback loop to self correct DAS return times is inefficient.

The problem still remains tho that unchecked… return times get further and further out. Eventually human refusing the wait feedback should limit demand… but even that breaks if it’s something super desirable.

 

[DisneyHead123]

In theory, I agree with you… but in reality because DAS acts as a way for disabled guests to enter the standby line, Disney can only require the disabled guest wait as long as the current wait is for the non disabled guests … if they added on additional time to the disabled guests return time, then they are making it more difficult for the guest with special needs to access a good or service that is available for a non disabled guest to walk up and get in line to wait for.

I don’t know about that. Say 100 people with DAS request a return time when the stated wait is 60 minutes. It actually doesn’t make sense to give everyone who makes a request at that time a 60 minute return time. (I’m not entirely sure that’s what they do now, but that’s the impression I’m getting.) If you were in a physical line, it’s understood that even one large party barreling in front of you means that you might miss the next roller coaster car, adding several minutes to your wait. 50, 75, 100? Quite a bit more. If people are dawdling or can’t figure out the safety bar / harness, or their child has a meltdown, or they panic and want to leave, etc., a fair bit of extra time may get added bit by bit just by all the random delays that happen as a part of life. My guess is that Disney could make a decent argument for increasing return times to factor that in while arguing it’s entirely equitable. (Also, my guess is that most DAS users wouldn’t have much of an issue with that.)

Part of what I haven’t been able to wrap my head around in this discussion is why DAS users are supposedly bumping up wait times so much, when they are supposed to effectively be “standby users waiting in a different location”. Hypothetically - again, hypothetically - they shouldn’t impact waits any more than a standby user. That they are having such an impact makes me suspect that Disney’s math is wrong somewhere.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Part of what I haven’t been able to wrap my head around in this discussion is why DAS users are supposedly bumping up wait times so much, when they are supposed to effectively be “standby users waiting in a different location”. Hypothetically - again, hypothetically - they shouldn’t impact waits any more than a standby user. That they are having such an impact makes me suspect that Disney’s math is wrong somewhere.

When they get a return time and then wait in line for a different ride with a shorter wait, they are doubling up (or more if the DAS return time is long enough for them to hit more than 1 ride while waiting). The "different location" is the queue for another ride. So it's not just 1 ride being impacted when that happens - and since other standby riders can't do that (without paying), they are impacting wait times in a way that non-DAS users aren't.

 

[Katieg3030]

I'm not sure where you're getting this. Disney has to afford disabled guests the opportunity to have something akin to or similar to the experience of non-disabled guests. You're ignoring the fact that Disney allows the disabled guest to enjoy other attractions, etc. while not standing in line. I'm not certain of any requirement that the return time would have to be exactly the same or less.

A business needs to make only reasonable accommodations that are necessary. It is not enough for the disabled guest to show that the accommodation does not eliminate all discomfort or difficulty.

Actually the system they had before DAS the GAC was ruled by a court to be offering the disabled guest a better experience . Disney was sued when they stopped giving out the GAC and implemented the DAS, which the court ruled was acceptable and reasonable for those who have disabilities that don’t allow them to wait in a traditional line.
They do have to offer equal opportunity to enjoy the attraction…the ADA specifically says they cannot make it harder or more cumbersome on the disabled guest to have the opportunity to do what the non disabled guests can do.
but what they could do and i
Think they should is make it so the disabled guest is not allowed to enter other standby line waiting for their DAS return . If the DAS return is the disabled guest standing in line… then the non disabled guest cannot stand in 2 lines so the DAS guest shouldn’t be able to either.
And I agree, waiting in line while sitting at a quick service eating, or on a bench somewhere is more pleasant than standing in crowd and waiting… but that is why it’s an accommodation. If it was just like the non DAS guest.. then it would be of no help to those who really need it.
Something else they could do is to lower the party size to allow the DAS guest and one caretaker/helper to use the card and if the larger party wants to ride together they would need to do a rider swap situation.
And then of course the more stringent requirements should help as well… so for those with issues (like the need for a bathroom frequently ect) could perhaps be accommodated differently, and limiting the DAS guests to the few who’s needs truly require it.
It’s a tough place to be for the disabled guests and the non disabled guests and I’ve been to parks with

I'm not sure where you're getting this. Disney has to afford disabled guests the opportunity to have something akin to or similar to the experience of non-disabled guests. You're ignoring the fact that Disney allows the disabled guest to enjoy other attractions, etc. while not standing in line. I'm not certain of any requirement that the return time would have to be exactly the same or less.

A business needs to make only reasonable accommodations that are necessary. It is not enough for the disabled guest to show that the accommodation does not eliminate all discomfort or difficulty.

the Ada says they would be unable to make it more strenuous or an additional burden for the disabled guest… they don’t have to guarantee an equal outcome. But they do have to guarantee equal opportunity to enjoy the goods and services the non disabled guests can enjoy.
A good example of this is that Disney doesn’t have to offer disabled guests a “guaranteed spot” on the rides with no standby line. And that is because the non disabled guests have no guarantee for a spot. So the DAS guest has an equal opportunity to get a virtual time to ride, but not a guarantee for one.
And you are right, being able to wait in an area away from the crowded line is a more pleasant experience. But that is why it’s an accommodation. The idea is to bring the disabled guest into the traditional line (same wait) as those that can stand in line.
Something Disney could do and I would argue they probably should do, is make it so the DAS guest can’t get in a standby like while they wait for their return time ( since non DAS guests can’t stand in 2 lines at once).
I do not envy Disney, would not want to be in the position to decide who is accommodated and how.

 

[Brian]

Is there a reason why DAS return times couldn't generate in relation to demand, like OG FP? The more FP that were snagged would push out the return times. One (of the many) problem is how many DAS returns slots are being generated that are not accounted for in the LL availability.

Because DAS is in lieu of waiting in the standby queue, not in lieu of Genie+. The only valid reason to deny offering a return time to a DAS user would be if standby were for some reason unavailable.

The anticipated DAS usage is factored into LL availability, but it is quite unpredictable.

 

[seabreezept813]

And that’s perfectly legit based on the policy. But you were on a ride while you were in line for another without paying the upcharge (where you could have been in two “reservations” of sorts and on a ride IF you buy genie)

The issue is nobody without DAS could do that…creating an advantage.

That’s why I wonder if capping it so you can request a DAS every 2 hours or something like that would help. Still gives people access to shorter lines but maybe less double dipping.

 

[Katieg3030]

I don’t know about that. Say 100 people with DAS request a return time when the stated wait is 60 minutes. It actually doesn’t make sense to give everyone who makes a request at that time a 60 minute return time. (I’m not entirely sure that’s what they do now, but that’s the impression I’m getting.) If you were in a physical line, it’s understood that even one large party barreling in front of you means that you might miss the next roller coaster car, adding several minutes to your wait. 50, 75, 100? Quite a bit more. If people are dawdling or can’t figure out the safety bar / harness, or their child has a meltdown, or they panic and want to leave, etc., a fair bit of extra time may get added bit by bit just by all the random delays that happen as a part of life. My guess is that Disney could make a decent argument for increasing return times to factor that in while arguing it’s entirely equitable. (Also, my guess is that most DAS users wouldn’t have much of an issue with that.)

Part of what I haven’t been able to wrap my head around in this discussion is why DAS users are supposedly bumping up wait times so much, when they are supposed to effectively be “standby users waiting in a different location”. Hypothetically - again, hypothetically - they shouldn’t impact waits any more than a standby user. That they are having such an impact makes me suspect that Disney’s math is wrong somewhere.

Absolutely agree with you! If 100 people using DAS all get a return time to space mountain at the same time, the LL becomes beyond overwhelmed. I have a family member that works for Disney, and my understanding is they have to keep the DAS return times consistently offered and they can’t ask some DAS holders to come back later or tell them their return time has to be 2 hours instead of 1 etc…
But as you can imagine it doesn’t take long for the LL to get backed up. But that is part of the reason for this revamp. The hope is that requiring guests to pre register for DAS is that the parks will have a general idea of the numbers of guests that will be attending that are DAS dependent. This would allow a better balancing of genie + slots ect. So having everything pre planned will hopefully give Disney a better grasp on how busy the DAS returns will be. Because the guests waiting to request das until they are at the park is a logistical issue. Additionally , they would like to offer guests a way to pre book some genie +, but they can’t do that until they have a better handle on who is using DAS on any given day. Restricting party size is key as well.

 

[Katieg3030]

Because DAS is in lieu of waiting in the standby queue, not in lieu of Genie+. The only valid reason to deny offering a return time to a DAS user would be if standby were for some reason unavailable.

The anticipated DAS usage is factored into LL availability, but it is quite unpredictable.

Yes. Exactly. If the standby line is open those with a disability have to have opportunity to access it, even if they need accommodations to do so.

 

[Brian]

That’s why I wonder if capping it so you can request a DAS every 2 hours or something like that would help. Still gives people access to shorter lines but maybe less double dipping.

That would create a disadvantage for the DAS guest as the non-disabled guest can get several attractions done in two hours using standby.

 

[DisneyHead123]

When they get a return time and then wait in line for a different ride with a shorter wait, they are doubling up (or more if the DAS return time is long enough for them to hit more than 1 ride while waiting). The "different location" is the queue for another ride. So it's not just 1 ride being impacted when that happens - and since other standby riders can't do that (without paying), they are impacting wait times in a way that non-DAS users aren't.

That may impact wait times for the 2nd ride (making them longer than usual) but hypothetically shouldn’t impact wait times for the first, presumably higher priority / more “e-ticket-esque” ride.

On reflection, maybe it’s the fact that DAS users get a “window”, but still have to be loaded quickly (as flynnibus calls it, they are “high priority”). Unlike standby users, who load the second their turn comes. So maybe a bigger than expected percentage of users show up during some point in that window but still have to be loaded within 15-ish minutes, and that’s where the alleged “clogging up” of the Genie system happens.

 

[seabreezept813]

That would create a disadvantage for the DAS guest as the non-disabled guest can get several attractions done in two hours using standby

Wouldn’t that only be the case if there were several ride with little to no waits and hence DAS could also access those.

 

[Brian]

Wouldn’t that only be the case if there were several ride with little to no waits and hence DAS could also access those.

That's assuming they could tolerate the wait time. Some DAS guests can't handle much of a wait time and struggle even with the LL queue, which is typically no more than 10-15 minutes max.

 

[Chi84]

Actually the system they had before DAS the GAC was ruled by a court to be offering the disabled guest a better experience . Disney was sued when they stopped giving out the GAC and implemented the DAS, which the court ruled was acceptable and reasonable for those who have disabilities that don’t allow them to wait in a traditional line.
They do have to offer equal opportunity to enjoy the attraction…the ADA specifically says they cannot make it harder or more cumbersome on the disabled guest to have the opportunity to do what the non disabled guests can do.
but what they could do and i
Think they should is make it so the disabled guest is not allowed to enter other standby line waiting for their DAS return . If the DAS return is the disabled guest standing in line… then the non disabled guest cannot stand in 2 lines so the DAS guest shouldn’t be able to either.
And I agree, waiting in line while sitting at a quick service eating, or on a bench somewhere is more pleasant than standing in crowd and waiting… but that is why it’s an accommodation. If it was just like the non DAS guest.. then it would be of no help to those who really need it.
Something else they could do is to lower the party size to allow the DAS guest and one caretaker/helper to use the card and if the larger party wants to ride together they would need to do a rider swap situation.
And then of course the more stringent requirements should help as well… so for those with issues (like the need for a bathroom frequently ect) could perhaps be accommodated differently, and limiting the DAS guests to the few who’s needs truly require it.
It’s a tough place to be for the disabled guests and the non disabled guests and I’ve been to parks with

the Ada says they would be unable to make it more strenuous or an additional burden for the disabled guest… they don’t have to guarantee an equal outcome. But they do have to guarantee equal opportunity to enjoy the goods and services the non disabled guests can enjoy.
A good example of this is that Disney doesn’t have to offer disabled guests a “guaranteed spot” on the rides with no standby line. And that is because the non disabled guests have no guarantee for a spot. So the DAS guest has an equal opportunity to get a virtual time to ride, but not a guarantee for one.
And you are right, being able to wait in an area away from the crowded line is a more pleasant experience. But that is why it’s an accommodation. The idea is to bring the disabled guest into the traditional line (same wait) as those that can stand in line.
Something Disney could do and I would argue they probably should do, is make it so the DAS guest can’t get in a standby like while they wait for their return time ( since non DAS guests can’t stand in 2 lines at once).
I do not envy Disney, would not want to be in the position to decide who is accommodated and how.

The ADA doesn't require a business to eliminate all discomfort or difficulty; the caselaw recognizes that this would be an unreasonable requirement. I'm not sure if anything else you said differs from what I wrote.

I don't think Disney is looking for ideas on how to fix their system. They already have it and will be implementing it soon. It seems they are sending many of the current DAS users back into the standby lines and will accommodate them with a return to line system. This is more than likely to be more cumbersome and difficult for people with physical difficulties, but I haven't seen anyone cite anything yet (caselaw, the ADA, or the DOJ regulations) that prohibits it. If it's left to the courts to decide, it's going to be awhile before anyone gets clarity.

The US Supreme Court in PGA Tour Inc, v. Martin, 532 U.S. 661 (2001) found an ADA violation when the tour refused to allow a disabled golfer to use a cart, contrary to tournament rules. But it recognized that individual assessments need to be made:

"Martin's claim thus differs from one that might be asserted by players with less serious afflictions that make walking the course uncomfortable or difficult, but not beyond their capacity. In such cases, an accommodation might be reasonable but not necessary."

I suspect Disney is currently giving DAS to people whose disabilities make standing in line uncomfortable or difficult, but not beyond their capacity.

 

[Katieg3030]

The ADA doesn't require a business to eliminate all discomfort or difficulty; the caselaw recognizes that this would be an unreasonable requirement. I'm not sure if anything else you said differs from what I wrote.

I don't think Disney is looking for ideas on how to fix their system. They already have it and will be implementing it soon. It seems they are sending many of the current DAS users back into the standby lines and will accommodate them with a return to line system. This is more than likely to be more cumbersome and difficult for people with physical difficulties, but I haven't seen anyone cite anything yet (caselaw, the ADA, or the DOJ regulations) that prohibits it. If it's left to the courts to decide, it's going to be awhile before anyone gets clarity.

The US Supreme Court in PGA Tour Inc, v. Martin, 532 U.S. 661 (2001) found an ADA violation when the tour refused to allow a disabled golfer to use a cart, contrary to tournament rules. But it recognized that individual assessments need to be made:

"Martin's claim thus differs from one that might be asserted by players with less serious afflictions that make walking the course uncomfortable or difficult, but not beyond their capacity. In such cases, an accommodation might be reasonable but not necessary."

I suspect Disney is currently giving DAS to people whose disabilities make standing in line uncomfortable or difficult, but not beyond their capacity.

I agree, Disney only has to offer reasonable accommodations to meet the needs that the persons disability creates… that is why for disabilities that the person needs to exit the line to take care of something, a return to line pass might meet that need.
I think the DAS comes into play for disabilities that prevent a person from being in the regular line at all… not because they might need to leave the line to take care of a need and then come back.
For DAS guests their need is to avoid the crowded line. For others they need access to a bathroom or a place to test blood sugar or take meds ect. I guess that might be why Disney is looking for other accommodations for guests who’s disability doesn’t need to avoid sensory overstimulation meltdowns, panic attacks ect ?

 

[flynnibus]

So maybe a bigger than expected percentage of users show up during some point in that window but still have to be loaded within 15-ish minutes, and that’s where the alleged “clogging up” of the Genie system happens.

It’s not hard to understand. If the return lane is sized to handle 100 people every 20 minutes to keep itts wait tine stable… if you start getting 200 people… your wait in that line increases.

And if they increase the capacity of the line by altering the ratio of the ride capacity this line gets (the split between ll/standby) to try to bring that wait time back down to normal… you reduce standby’s capacity and their wait times will grow.

 

[Katieg3030]

K, I get the group of 12 - that's crazy. Disney did encourage people to shop, eat, or ride in shorter standby lines. In Nov, we were waiting for our Soarin DAS time and Spaceship Earth had no line. We would have been nuts to skip it.

Please don’t think I’m judging or saying anything that you are doing is wrong…but in a perfect world I do think out of fairness it might benefit Disney and everyone else to prevent DAS guests to holding 2 “standby” slots at once (and I have a DAS user in my family, so I’m not speaking as someone who isn’t empathic to those with special needs)… and I don’t at all blame those or hold it against anyone for doing that right now, because Disney openly encourages it.
I do think if they discouraged it, it might make the pass less attractive to those who seek it dishonestly. And that would benefit everyone, especially all the legitimate DAS users who need to be able to access the attractions with the shortest wait possible. But like I said, as someone with a couple of special needs family members i totally get why a family might be trying to distract a child with special need while they are waiting to go on a favorite attraction.
It’s a real shame that dishonest people are making it so that people who need help are looked at as potential fakers.

 

[DisneyHead123]

It’s not hard to understand.

It actually is hard to understand the way that DAS is described - as basically “the standby lane, waiting somewhere else”. In that case, you are making statements such as “The standby line is overwhelming wait times in the standby line!” or “Genie+ is clogged up because more people are waiting in the standby line!” That doesn’t make a lot of sense, obviously.

If the return lane is sized to handle 100 people every 20 minutes to keep itts wait tine stable… if you start getting 200 people… your wait in that line increases.

Again, in theory, DAS is essentially like letting more standby users through. DAS is not “unlimited LL’s”, although many people in this thread are confused on that point and refer to it as such. Letting more standby users through should not impact the LL. Hence my confusion. That said, on reflection, I can see how the “window” element of DAS, combined with imprecise return times, could result in issues. (Again, however, that takes further analysis than simply saying that “standby users in a different location” would obviously delay Genie users - because that isn’t an obvious conclusion.)

 

[ditzee]

Please don’t think I’m judging or saying anything that you are doing is wrong…but in a perfect world I do think out of fairness it might benefit Disney and everyone else to prevent DAS guests to holding 2 “standby” slots at once (and I have a DAS user in my family, so I’m not speaking as someone who isn’t empathic to those with special needs)… and I don’t at all blame those or hold it against anyone for doing that right now, because Disney openly encourages it.
I do think if they discouraged it, it might make the pass less attractive to those who seek it dishonestly. And that would benefit everyone, especially all the legitimate DAS users who need to be able to access the attractions with the shortest wait possible. But like I said, as someone with a couple of special needs family members i totally get why a family might be trying to distract a child with special need while they are waiting to go on a favorite attraction.
It’s a real shame that dishonest people are making it so that people who need help are looked at as potential fakers.

I understand.
This is from Disney:
"Guests utilizing DAS can enjoy many other experiences throughout Walt Disney World Resort during a DAS virtual wait, such as other rides, shows, concerts, parades and Character Greetings. They can also take a rest in a break area, get something to eat or go shopping."

 

[Splash4eva]

I see lots of issues with the DAS (even though I have an autistic family member that uses it)… but I totally agree with you on this. Because Genie+ is available for all guests to purchase it wouldn’t be legal to tell a guest with disabilities they couldn’t purchase it . That said, I do feel that because the DAS is supposed to be the way for those with certain disabilities to access the standby line… I think it would be okay for Disney to make it so that those using DAS could not wait in another standby line at a different attraction while waiting for their DAS time to return. Since guests without disabilities are unable to wait in two standby lines… but they are able to hold a genie + return and wait standby so that is what the option should be for those with disabilities as well.

But technically they can with Genie.

I get a Genie for say PP at 930. I am now allowed to hop in another line prior to that and wait to ride say HM before my time comes up… so yes i understand why people are saying that but its another slippery slope Disney im sure does not want to go down.