New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

[el_super]

The rule doesn't exist for standby because those guests can't leave the line to ride multiple attractions while they wait

So remove the ability to ride other attractions while a DAS return is active. That seems reasonable no?

Disney can easily make the case that this is a reasonable accommodation under the law since they are still providing access to the ride as required while preventing abuse that has created an operational headache.

Most ADA requirements are "operational headaches" like removing every single curb from Main Street or training additional ASL interpreters and having them on hand whether they are needed or not. If 12 people can stand in line together and wait 40 minutes for an attraction (to ride together), than someone using a DAS pass should be able to take 12 people through the LL to ride together. Saying "they waited over there in the shade instead of over here in the queue" is an operational headache is a bit much.

ETA: This whole argument that it's TOO HARD to have people waiting outside of queues sounds oddly similar to the reasons why they had to switch to paid Fastpass

 

[phillip9698]

We’re having two separate conversations at this point. I’m not talking about a room for DAS. I’m talking about a room for everyone. And no, not like a pre-show, or the test track build a car, because everyone enters and leaves that at the same time so that ends up being just another stopping point in the queue (albeit a better one than nothing). I’m talking about a dynamic room like Dumbo where people enter and leave in dynamic fashion based upon when they entered (in Dumbo they use pagers). That would occupy people for longer than the standard pre-show if it was large enough.

I asked how massive that room would need to be in order to house and entertain the number of people who want to ride Rise as opposed to Dumbo.

You then countered with it doesn’t have to house the entire queue, just a portion.

And with that we are back at a queue.

 

[StarBright]

How would you know? You created this account 1min before posting that.

Long time listener.. first time poster right???

The goal post indeed moved so much that I felt the need to create an account and comment about it. Not sure why that matters, I don't think I even disagree with what you've said.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

So remove the ability to ride other attractions while a DAS return is active. That seems reasonable no?

I think that would be fair to guests, but forces Disney to effectively double their ride staffing levels and take on extra capital expenditures by purchasing and installing new touch points in every Standby entrance - even those that don't have G+/ILL. I don't see how forcing a company to take on additional expenses like that would be considered "reasonable" under the law.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

Most ADA requirements are "operational headaches" like removing every single curb from Main Street or training additional ASL interpreters and having them on hand whether they are needed or not. If 12 people can stand in line together and wait 40 minutes for an attraction (to ride together), than someone using a DAS pass should be able to take 12 people through the LL to ride together. Saying "they waited over there in the shade instead of over here in the queue" is an operational headache is a bit much.

ETA: This whole argument that it's TOO HARD to have people waiting outside of queues sounds oddly similar to the reasons why they had to switch to paid Fastpass

No, when those 12 people are waiting for their return time by taking up space in the line for another ride, they are taking up 24 spots on line at once. Nobody else can do that without paying and that IS an operational headache for Disney. They allocate a certain number of LL slots per attraction based on what the system can handle. The current level of DAS abuse is throwing a wrench into that. Should capacity be higher? Sure, but it isn't so we all have to deal with what capaciry is instead of what we think it should be.

 

[el_super]

I don't see how forcing a company to take on additional expenses like that would be considered "reasonable" under the law.

The law wouldn't care. The law requires that they accommodate disabled guests to the same degree (a similar wait) as any other guest. No one is entitled to a "reasonable" wait for an attraction, which is really all that would be accomplished by limiting DAS users to one experience at a time (lower waits at other attractions).

No, when those 12 people are waiting for their return time by taking up space in the line for another ride, they are taking up 24 spots on line at once.

But within the context of accommodation, at a singular attraction, that doesn't matter. If a 12 person DAS party or a 12 person Standby party all decide to ride the Haunted Mansion, it does not matter where they eventually end up waiting. All 12 will eventually be allowed to ride together. Telling the party of 12 that they cannot ride together because one person in their party is disabled, while the standby party DOES get to ride together no questions asked, is exactly the kind of discrimination the ADA was enacted to fight.

You can argue that it isn't to Disney's benefit, or the benefit of other guests, to allow that 12 to also go get in line somewhere else, but Disney isn't doing anything to stop that and it doesn't appear anything in changing in that regard post May.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

And this has been gone over. There's a difference between choosing to separate for a few rides, while having a boatload of rides that a family can choose to ride together as there's no height requirement, and telling some families they *have* to separate in order to have a disability need met, and that being the case on any ride in the park at any given time.

To be clear, I'm referring to the concept of having some of the party wait in line and others use the VQ. They would meet and ride the attraction together.

While this may not be ideal, I ask - does it provide necessary accommodation, even if in an imperfect way?

If not, then nothing changes. People will cheat the system and groups will continue to hire a DAS user as a tour guide.

People think the DAS should apply to a group of 5 if they're immediate family, but not a group of five friends. Then a limit of 4 is suddenly okay. Doesn't the group of 5, 6, or 10 friends want to stay together too? No one seems to have an issue with some degree of restrictions.

Why are people okay with different rules for friends vs. family? Who are any of us to decide which relationships are more significant?

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Choosing to split up is different from being forced to split up. A major theme of the law and the subsequent standards is to not separate those with disabilities from others.

That's fair but my point is that it wouldn't necessarily be an undue hardship.

They could theoretically balance it as well to apply to some attractions but not all. Minimize the separation while still reducing some of the appeal for those who cheat the system.

It always comes back to the same thing. In the absence of medical documentation being allowed, DAS will either be abused excessively or it will have to be scaled back to minimize the "advantage" factor.

 

[ConfettiCupcake]

To be clear, I'm referring to the concept of having some of the party wait in line and others use the VQ. They would meet and ride the attraction together.

While this may not be ideal, I ask - does it provide necessary accommodation, even if in an imperfect way?

If not, then nothing changes. People will cheat the system and groups will continue to hire a DAS user as a tour guide.

People think the DAS should apply to a group of 5 if they're immediate family, but not a group of five friends. Then a limit of 4 is suddenly okay. Doesn't the group of 5, 6, or 10 friends want to stay together too? No one seems to have an issue with some degree of restrictions.

Why are people okay with different rules for friends vs. family? Who are any of us to decide which relationships are more significant?

It’s not family, it’s immediate family which until Disney gives us reason to believe otherwise typically refers to parents and children and therefore I would assume the intent is to make sure 2+ children families are accommodated. Not to allow aunts and uncles and everyone blood related to stay together but not friends.

I see what you’re saying, but Disney isn’t saying there are exceptions to the cap on DAS as long as you’re related.

 

[lazyboy97o]

That's fair but my point is that it wouldn't necessarily be an undue hardship.

They could theoretically balance it as well to apply to some attractions but not all. Minimize the separation while still reducing some of the appeal for those who cheat the system.

It always comes back to the same thing. In the absence of medical documentation being allowed, DAS will either be abused excessively or it will have to be scaled back to minimize the "advantage" factor.

Having the accessible restrooms outside of the large group restrooms wouldn’t be a hardship either but isn’t allowed. A side entrance isn’t necessarily a hardship but also is not allowed. Hardship isn’t necessarily a factor.

 

[ditzee]

I asked how massive that room would need to be in order to house and entertain the number of people who want to ride Rise as opposed to Dumbo.

You then countered with it doesn’t have to house the entire queue, just a portion.

And with that we are back at a queue.

If the DAS is staggered or if fewer people qualify, the line would be smaller and fewer would have to wait.
Not sure because I have not researched it but say at Epcot, use preexisting buildings. Just as examples: Odyssey could be used for World Showcase because the rides closest are Three Caballeros, Frozen, and Remy. The old Wonders of Life building for Future showcase as waiting areas for the Future Showcase rides. There are posters here who know a lot more about unused buildings in Disney parks than I do. This would prevent having to build new spaces.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

The law wouldn't care. The law requires that they accommodate disabled guests to the same degree (a similar wait) as any other guest. No one is entitled to a "reasonable" wait for an attraction, which is really all that would be accomplished by limiting DAS users to one experience at a time (lower waits at other attractions).

No, the law requires "reasonable accommodation." Businesses do not have to give benefits to disabled guests that are not available to others, which is what has happened ed with DAS allowing guests to grab return times and ride other rides while they wait for their return time to arrive.

But within the context of accommodation, at a singular attraction, that doesn't matter. If a 12 person DAS party or a 12 person Standby party all decide to ride the Haunted Mansion, it does not matter where they eventually end up waiting. All 12 will eventually be allowed to ride together. Telling the party of 12 that they cannot ride together because one person in their party is disabled, while the standby party DOES get to ride together no questions asked, is exactly the kind of discrimination the ADA was enacted to fight.

It DOES matter when 1 group of 12 can go ride Big Thunder while waiting for Haunted Mansion. The DAS party is getting a benefit not provided to other guests. That's the opposite of discrimination. There's a reason why people are abusing the system the way they are. Remember the recent stories about unauthorized tour guides using DAS to give their customers free line skipping?

You can argue that it isn't to Disney's benefit, or the benefit of other guests, to allow that 12 to also go get in line somewhere else, but Disney isn't doing anything to stop that and it doesn't appear anything in changing in that regard post May.

Limiting the DAS party size is a change.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

No, the law requires "reasonable accommodation." Businesses do not have to give benefits to disabled guests that are not available to others, which is what has happened ed with DAS allowing guests to grab return times and ride other rides while they wait for their return time to arrive.

It DOES matter when 1 group of 12 can go ride Big Thunder while waiting for Haunted Mansion. The DAS party is getting a benefit not provided to other guests. That's the opposite of discrimination. There's a reason why people are abusing the system the way they are. Remember the recent stories about unauthorized tour guides using DAS to give their customers free line skipping?

Limiting the DAS party size is a change.

I don’t know how any of this is being disputed…

Oh wait…I think I figured it out

 

[SourcererMark79]

Is there a reason why DAS return times couldn't generate in relation to demand, like OG FP? The more FP that were snagged would push out the return times. One (of the many) problem is how many DAS returns slots are being generated that are not accounted for in the LL availability.

 

[el_super]

No, the law requires "reasonable accommodation." Businesses do not have to give benefits to disabled guests that are not available to others.

Right. And the recourse to correct that is to prevent DAS users from joining another queue which Disney is not doing.

What you were trying to argue is that Disney should be legally allowed to pare down the usage of DAS because the alternative solution, preventing them from joining another queue, was unreasonable and costly (it's not).

And that this pared down usage should be allowed because having people skip the queue is an unreasonable ask of the business, despite the fact that they sell that same exact service for an additional fee.

All if this sounds rather hard to pass through a judge or jury if/when this ends up being litigated.

What is to come of their efforts to convince people to leave DAS behind and rejoin a normal queue is all up in the air right now, but history shows that not much changes in this regard. Their return to queue system might be just as prone to the same type of abuse you are so worried about now.

Limiting the DAS party size is a change.

They have no real way to enforce a rule on what constitutes a family so there is no real change here: there is no limit other than at the CMs discretion.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It just never stops.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Is there a reason why DAS return times couldn't generate in relation to demand, like OG FP? The more FP that were snagged would push out the return times. One (of the many) problem is how many DAS returns slots are being generated that are not accounted for in the LL availability.

The DAS return times do change based on demand. They’re tied to the standby wait time.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I asked how massive that room would need to be in order to house and entertain the number of people who want to ride Rise as opposed to Dumbo.

You then countered with it doesn’t have to house the entire queue, just a portion.

And with that we are back at a queue.

Of course we are back at a queue. This doesn’t replace a queue.

 

[el_super]

Is there a reason why DAS return times couldn't generate in relation to demand, like OG FP? The more FP that were snagged would push out the return times. One (of the many) problem is how many DAS returns slots are being generated that are not accounted for in the LL availability.

DAS return times should be tied to the current standby wait of the attraction. So if an attraction has a 4 hour wait, DAS should also have a 4 hour wait. DAS return slots are meant to be an analogue to the standby line, so should be available as long as standby is open. They don't really have a capacity cap on standby so they can't really do the same for DAS.

That does occasionally cause issues where the return times are out of whack due to ride downtimes and what not, but honestly standby people can also get a re-admission as well so it's not all that different.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

DAS return times should be tied to the current standby wait of the attraction. So if an attraction has a 4 hour wait, DAS should also have a 4 hour wait. DAS return slots are meant to be an analogue to the standby line, so should be available as long as standby is open. They don't really have a capacity cap on standby so they can't really do the same for DAS.

That does occasionally cause issues where the return times are out of whack due to ride downtimes and what not, but honestly standby people can also get a re-admission as well so it's not all that different.

So if a ride breaks down and you’re in the standby line…they give you a return time?

Thanks! That’s great