New DAS System at Walt Disney World 2024

flynnibus

Premium Member
As a practical matter, courts are not going to add to a vague law by inserting their own elements. A law can be unconstitutionally vague, but here the ADA is implemented through the DOJ regulations.
They aren't adding - The need for the inclusion in this venue is already spelled out in the law. What is missing is any specific guidance for this use case. The ADA guidelines don't really cover queuing period. The courts aren't going to NOT pass judgement in this scenario simply because the DOJ guidelines don't have specific inclusions or exclusions defined for this use case. You're not going to be able to argue the ADA doesn't apply simply because the scenario isn't covered by the Accessibility Guidelines - judge will have to decide what is allowable or not because it hasn't be answered before. And due to the lack of presedent, it weakens any argument that 'exceptions don't exist for scenario X in the guidelines' when Scenario X hasn't been covered in the guidelines period.

So it's not a matter of 'adding' to the law - but a matter of interpreting what the existing ADA law means in this type of application. The DOJ Acccessibility Guidelines are not the end-all for this use case as it's not even addressed.
 

Brian

Well-Known Member
This may be a dumb question, but why does it cost money to rent wheelchairs and scooters? (not trying to be argumentative - genuinely asking)
It's not a dumb question. Places of public accommodation are only required to make their facilities accessible to those with disabilities. They are not required to provide mobility aids, as those are generally regarded as BYO. Those that do provide them do so as a courtesy.
 

Happyday

Well-Known Member
It's not a dumb question. Places of public accommodation are only required to make their facilities accessible to those with disabilities. They are not required to provide mobility aids, as those are generally regarded as BYO. Those that do provide them do so as a courtesy.
Exactly because most people who need them have them on a daily basis. The difference is the parks are large and some people get by in their daily routines but this kind of venue adds a element of difficulty.
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
so it's not just a matter of courtesy it's material impact to the product being provided.
I don't think the current leadership is overly concerned with impact to any product being provided as much as they're concerned about profit loss.

This new DAS system will take effect and there will most likely not be any significant decrease in LL wait times. Increase in LL profits? Yes. And that's totally fine. Disney is after all a business. But they've painted themselves into a corner in regards to wait times and guest satisfaction and they'll keep squeezing blood from a stone and find another aspect to point the finger at (and then monetize) instead of taking real action to improve the impact of product being provided.

Please know I was just replying to the concept of that one part of your post, not arguing against you in any way.
 

rle4lunch

Well-Known Member
They just figured out that it's cheaper to rent an electric stroller (aka scooter) than buying genie+.

Seriously though, this may help with the rampant excess of scooters in the parks. This goes for my mother in law and her excuse to use one as well.
 

Happyday

Well-Known Member
They just figured out that it's cheaper to rent an electric stroller (aka scooter) than buying genie+.

Seriously though, this may help with the rampant excess of scooters in the parks. This goes for my mother in law and her excuse to use one as well.
It may however some people that use scooters are able to do many daily routines however long distances in the heat are difficult. I am thinking of those with COPD, some with asthma (not all). This is not an excuse just an observation, that being said unfortunately I don't think the scooter usage will be impacted by much 🤦🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I don’t know if Disney would ever go this route, but - in theory - I wonder if they could just get rid of DAS all together and then say, “if you have trouble waiting in line, Genie+ is available to purchase, which gives you access to our lightning lane.”

Nope - can't meet your accessibility requirements by forcing people to pay for it. Hard stop there.
 

nickys

Premium Member
Holy cow did I attack you or something ?

It was just a simple question.
I was relaying some information. And I did say for some applicants but thought maybe you had missed it - that wasn’t meant to be snarky. But rider swap really isn’t going to work for a group of 2 so I assume they’ll offer something different.
 

Chi84

Premium Member
They aren't adding - The need for the inclusion in this venue is already spelled out in the law. What is missing is any specific guidance for this use case. The ADA guidelines don't really cover queuing period. The courts aren't going to NOT pass judgement in this scenario simply because the DOJ guidelines don't have specific inclusions or exclusions defined for this use case. You're not going to be able to argue the ADA doesn't apply simply because the scenario isn't covered by the Accessibility Guidelines - judge will have to decide what is allowable or not because it hasn't be answered before. And due to the lack of presedent, it weakens any argument that 'exceptions don't exist for scenario X in the guidelines' when Scenario X hasn't been covered in the guidelines period.

So it's not a matter of 'adding' to the law - but a matter of interpreting what the existing ADA law means in this type of application. The DOJ Acccessibility Guidelines are not the end-all for this use case as it's not even addressed.
The courts will rule on the question of whether the ADA has been violated. Take a look at the arguments that were made by the parties in A.L. v. Walt Disney World and in the complaint in the Six Flags litigation. The authority cited there is what the courts are considering as precedent.

I don't think we disagree as much as you think. I didn't say the DOJ regulations are the end of the story and clearly the matter can be raised. But parties are going to rely heavily on those regulations in arguing what type of accommodations are reasonable, as well as whether a request for documentation would violate the ADA. That's what happens when there is no direct precedent. The courts just don't go off on their own.
 

Angel Ariel

Well-Known Member
At the same time it shouldn't be a the expense of other guests.
And on the flip side - making sure non-disabled guests have a good experience also shouldn't come at the expense of disabled guests.

It's a balance. And one that's difficult to strike and maintain, I wholeheartedly acknowledge. But (in general across multiple platforms), I've seen enough people who lack concern re: negative impact to disabled guests that it is frustrating and exhausting. (Not saying this is you - again, general comment).
 

Angel Ariel

Well-Known Member
Losing DAS may not necessarily drop the number of people in a park per day, but it does drop the number of people in queues (which as I said with DAS is not limited to tickets sold in a day).
If rider switch is being used as one of the major accommodations in place of DAS as the Disneyland site indicates, then this issue still exists. Because the people waiting while the 1 person rides can stilll go ride an attraction with a shorter line and then go back and ride the first attraction with a LL.
 

Trauma

Well-Known Member
If rider switch is being used as one of the major accommodations in place of DAS as the Disneyland site indicates, then this issue still exists. Because the people waiting while the 1 person rides can stilll go ride an attraction with a shorter line and then go back and ride the first attraction with a LL.
I’m clueless it’s been a long couple days, but I assumed it was something like most of your group is in line, when they reach the front you join them?

So if you left to ride another ride and they reach the front your outa luck?

Keep in mind I have no idea what I’m talking about so if someone else could step in and clarify that would be great.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
If rider switch is being used as one of the major accommodations in place of DAS as the Disneyland site indicates, then this issue still exists. Because the people waiting while the 1 person rides can stilll go ride an attraction with a shorter line and then go back and ride the first attraction with a LL.
I guess anybody using rider swap can do that now. Isn't rider swap available for anybody to use if they want to?
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
The courts will rule on the question of whether the ADA has been violated. Take a look at the arguments that were made by the parties in A.L. v. Walt Disney World and in the complaint in the Six Flags litigation. The authority cited there is what the courts are considering as precedent.
The previous DAS case (A.L vs WDW) is less applicable because that case was really all about wanting the instant line skip (with multiple uses)... which is what that judgement was on -- finding that accommodation was not a reasonable accommodation for that family. The topics of documentation, registration, etc weren't really addressed because the family wasn't really challenging those elements.

The Six Flags case of course highlights and challenges those questions, and that is where we should expect the first real precedent on the matter (if it ever does goes to court). The main takeaways from AL vs WDW is that unlimited skipping was rejected based on Disney's assertions of it fundamentally impacting the product, that Disney was able to use the impact on other guests to make that claim (and not just other things like additional staffing, etc), and that Disney was able to use the standards of comparing usage data between the populations to make their case.

No one has ruled yet on the reasonableness of requiring documentation for this use case nor has the DOJ addressed it. It's an open field, where only the ADA language itself is the law of the land.

I don't think we disagree as much as you think. I didn't say the DOJ regulations are the end of the story and clearly the matter can be raised. But parties are going to rely heavily on those regulations in arguing what type of accommodations are reasonable, as well as whether a request for documentation would violate the ADA. That's what happens when there is no direct precedent. The courts just don't go off on their own.

But you were making the point that documentation is only referenced three times, and this isn't one of them. My point was, that doesn't constrain the court. The court can rule where the DOJ hasn't yet addressed (or someone can even challenge those). Sure the sides can use the other exceptions (or lack of) to make their arguments, but the court will be forging new ground regardless. It has the ADA language to guide them, as well as prior interpretations... but this spot is a gap. They will have to fill it - if a judgement is ever made.

I do wonder if anyone has the legs to see this through the courts though... or does the Access Board and DOJ get there first? Opinions filed by the DOJ flood this overall topic too.. without necessarily getting to the true Accessibility guidelines.

It's been so long.. maybe it will happen. Which glacial process will get there first? :)
 

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