New Crypt Queue in Haunted Mansion-What do you think?

[WDWGoof07]

Guys, I appreciate the debate very much. It's one reason I posted here, knowing full-well I'd be taking a minority position and viewed as an reactionary. I also figured I'd get some good feedback and alternate views, and I have. I'm eventually going to write a review at the blog, and this kind of thing sharpens and—yes—corrects one's thinking.

Goof07, your argument that the "wobble back to normal" by the queue may simply be unobserved (like the house going to decay) overlooks the fact that the wobble back to normal is something they do with the deliberate intent of you witnessing it. If they don't want you to be able to figure out if you're going crazy or if you're witnessing supernatural activity (so as to unnerve you), then they're going to want you to see things looking normal between flashes of impossible distortions.

You think that maybe the good ghosts are happy materialized or not, and similarly the bad ones unhappy either way. Okay. Perhaps the wacky phase of the queue is the result of the happy ghosts twisting things around, so they have no desire to make you nervous and don't flash back and forth in front of you? I'm having great difficulty in swallowing the notion that you need to already have these specific and less-than-self-evident metaphysical ideas clear in your mind before you can even begin to make sense of the presentation, but let that go. It still doesn't work. Maybe the Captain, the Organist, and Prudence are happy campers, but the Dread bunch look mostly mean and unhappy, and there's an unsolved murder mystery involving the whole lot of them. Are they supposed to be good, contented ghosts, resting in peace? Aren't they (most of them anyway) exactly the sort you would expect to issue in restless, angry, and possibly malevolent spirits?

It's been an interesting exploration, but in the end I don't think the "oscillating queue" theory is going to work. The Dread family is not likely to be resting in peace any more than coffin guy, and if they're diddling around with their funerary artwork, it's not likely to be for your amusement. And I still can't see how you could possibly say "it's not your imagination, it is real" any more emphatically than by sliding stone books in and out while your hand is right on them, in broad daylight.

What you see in the queue is real. Those books are indeed shifting, and that sea captain's grave is leaking - after all, get too close and you'll get a bloody nose, as you say. The question of what is real or imagined, as it pertains to the queue, is not whether all of that is actually happening. Rather, the question casts doubt on what is the true form of these physical structures. When you actually perceive ghostly manipulation as it happens, the transformations are, as you correctly state, purposefully executed to make you disoriented and ponder the question of whether this is real or imagined. Part of you is trying to reassure yourself that these transformations aren't really happening. However, the other part of you dreads the possibility that the ghosts can manipulate the environment, which makes you apprehensive about being harmed. Then, and only then, would you begin to wonder about the queue crypts in hindsight. You can try to convince yourself that the crypts were always like that, but the doubt disturbs you. The possibility that the ghosts can distort structures is scary for another reason. If ghosts had warped the crypts, there was no tip-off whatsoever. All of it was hidden in plain sight, and, even now inside the house, when you have acknowledged the possibility of ghostly distortion, every subsequent occurrence surprises you and happens too quickly for you to detect a pattern. Perhaps you're just paranoid. But, these distortions in the house have been too frequent and unsettling to gamble on the livelihood of your imagination. The crypts have demonstrated the stealth with which the ghosts can exercise this ability. Your blindness and vulnerability to anything that could be lurking around the next corner is creepy and unsettling. That is how the queue contributes to the spookiness of the first act. It doesn't require guests to understand the ride mythology of ghostly manipulation as they are waiting in the queue, either.

As for the question of friendly vs. malevolent spirits in the queue, it is possible that, in this form, the sinister-looking Dreads not as powerful as the ghosts in the house, which leaves less capable of bringing serious harm unto you.

Forgot to answer this. If the characters are not realistic enough to pass for people in your own world, then you're simply an audience to fictional characters in a fictional world. If they are realistic enough (e.g., the Constance saga), then too much development tends to erode the sense that it's your story, that's all. It's not cut-and-dried. You can get the feeling that all of this is an artificial set up for the REAL story, which is not about you but someone else. There's also the outer limits of "conceivably possible" that you have to avoid in order to maintain believability. How much information about the former residents and ghosts are you really going to pick up on a short visit to a genuine haunted house, unless you sit down in there and read diaries and letters left lying around, or a ghost decides to sit you down and tell you a full story? In the original HM, this was practically nil, on purpose. The WDI tendency to keep putting more and more stories in there corrodes the intended effect, I think. This thing is about you.

As far as I know, the only knowledge of the Dread family you learn comes from their busts in queue. That's not that much more extensive than what you learn about other people in the queue whose names are strangely similar to former Imagineers. The danger of diluting the overall effect with too much story is real as far as the design process goes, but I don't think WDI has placed enough a focus on these characters to do that kind of damage.

 

[WDWGoof07]

Oh, they definitely are. I am of the completely unoriginal opinion that the new queue seems to wreck the story* pacing I've always enjoyed. (Although I did come up with that criticism before I read anybody else say it here, so I can at least honestly say I arrived at the conclusion on my own!)

I read your post theorizing how the queue elements might still form a coherent story by being a "headfake" and I admire it (if for no other reason than that it gives me a potentially positive way to look at the queue, since it's not going anywhere) — but I also feel like it's probably a bit of a bail-out for the queue designers, who likely didn't put as much thought into how well their ideas fit the attraction as you did after the fact.

I'm also completely reserving the right to change my mind if I get a different feel from seeing it in person. I think it has the potential to work with a little toning down: nixing the poetess would go a long way IMO, although I'm not sure what to do with the ghostly jam session. That seems almost irredeemable to me, unless they completely remove the interactive element and cause the instruments to "come to life" briefly every so often.

I know this sounds like BS based on the time I've spent on this thread, but it really is a minor issue to me. If I can still walk into the lobby with that same sense of foreboding I always feel (yes, I always feel it!), then I won't be giving a second thought to the queue. I guess that's my litmus test.

*I know the word "story" has come in for a lot of abuse here. I'm using it anyway, because it strikes me as the most appropriate — if inexact — term for describing the progression of the attraction experiences.

Fair enough. I'm curious to find out your in-person reaction to the new queue in the future.

And you are absolutely right - the ride itself is as brilliant as it ever was.

 

[HBG2]

What you see in the queue is real. Those books are indeed shifting, and that sea captain's grave is leaking - after all, get too close and you'll get a bloody nose, as you say. The question of what is real or imagined, as it pertains to the queue, is not whether all of that is actually happening. Rather, the question casts doubt on what is the true form of these physical structures. When you actually perceive ghostly manipulation as it happens, the transformations are, as you correctly state, purposefully executed to make you disoriented and ponder the question of whether this is real or imagined. Part of you is trying to reassure yourself that these transformations aren't really happening. However, the other part of you dreads the possibility that the ghosts can manipulate the environment, which makes you apprehensive about being harmed. Then, and only then, would you begin to wonder about the queue crypts in hindsight. You can try to convince yourself that the crypts were always like that, but the doubt disturbs you. The possibility that the ghosts can distort structures is scary for another reason. If ghosts had warped the crypts, there was no tip-off whatsoever. All of it was hidden in plain sight, and, even now inside the house, when you have acknowledged the possibility of ghostly distortion, every subsequent occurrence surprises you and happens too quickly for you to detect a pattern. Perhaps you're just paranoid. But, these distortions in the house have been too frequent and unsettling to gamble on the livelihood of your imagination. The crypts have demonstrated the stealth with which the ghosts can exercise this ability. Your blindness and vulnerability to anything that could be lurking around the next corner is creepy and unsettling. That is how the queue contributes to the spookiness of the first act. It doesn't require guests to understand the ride mythology of ghostly manipulation as they are waiting in the queue, either.

I see what you're saying, and I suppose this is a possible way to cope with the queue, but to my mind it's subtle to the point of losing believability. For one thing, at least to my mind, you'd still have to explain why the ghosts have decided to include such subtle illogicalities in their distortions as headstones for characters that are hard to believe are family members of the household (how will you, the visitor, come to know that, so that you can be properly befuddled?), depictions of ghosts that haven't materialized yet in the forms depicted, and strange inscriptions about touching crypts to get music and banners about seeking the right word. Any of this could be explained as a sort of "theater of the absurd" recipe for discombobulatation, I suppose, but at some point...too ingenious to accept as "real."

As for the question of friendly vs. malevolent spirits in the queue, it is possible that, in this form, the sinister-looking Dreads not as powerful as the ghosts in the house, which leaves less capable of bringing serious harm unto you.


As far as I know, the only knowledge of the Dread family you learn comes from their busts in queue. That's not that much more extensive than what you learn about other people in the queue whose names are strangely similar to former Imagineers. The danger of diluting the overall effect with too much story is real as far as the design process goes, but I don't think WDI has placed enough a focus on these characters to do that kind of damage.

I believe the busts are going to whisper clues at you (at least if they follow the original ideas they were testing), and there's a portrait of "Cousin Claude" next to the HHG's now, looking suspiciously like a planted clue to the murder mystery. Hope I'm wrong, but I suspect you aren't going to be able to sideline the Dreads as minor additions.

 

[WDWGoof07]

I see what you're saying, and I suppose this is a possible way to cope with the queue, but to my mind it's subtle to the point of losing believability. For one thing, at least to my mind, you'd still have to explain why the ghosts have decided to include such subtle illogicalities in their distortions as headstones for characters that are hard to believe are family members of the household (how will you, the visitor, come to know that, so that you can be properly befuddled?), depictions of ghosts that haven't materialized yet in the forms depicted, and strange inscriptions about touching crypts to get music and banners about seeking the right word. Any of this could be explained as a sort of "theater of the absurd" recipe for discombobulatation, I suppose, but at some point...too ingenious to accept as "real."

When we're talking about depictions of ghosts that haven't materialized in their depicted forms, there's a degree of involuntary distortion going on just by virtue of the ghosts being there. It's similar to how the house falls to decay after Madame Leota materializes the ghosts, allowing them to come out of the woodwork (literally). If the Dreads are not interested in disorienting you, their presence makes those busts take on caricatured forms of their corruptible selves involuntarily.

As for the inscriptions, I place them in the same category as "I'll lower the safety bar for you" or "No flash pictures, please...we're frightfully sensitive to bright lights". They're just prompts, but they tried to make them fit without compromising the illusion. I wonder if they should have tried for more of a surprise factor by using delay timers and no text-based prompts, but it doesn't really bother me that they do. If you just take a passing glance at them, none of them stick out as something that doesn't belong in a graveyard.

I believe the busts are going to whisper clues at you (at least if they follow the original ideas they were testing), and there's a portrait of "Cousin Claude" next to the HHG's now, looking suspiciously like a planted clue to the murder mystery. Hope I'm wrong, but I suspect you aren't going to be able to sideline the Dreads as minor additions.

They'll only whisper at you if you put your ear to them. Some people may not even notice it. I view the murder mystery a fun, little Easter egg. Their story isn't completely on the sidelines of the whole experience, but WDI has deliberately built it in so that it is not compulsory knowledge in order to enjoy the ride.

 

[HBG2]

When we're talking about depictions of ghosts that haven't materialized in their depicted forms, there's a degree of involuntary distortion going on just by virtue of the ghosts being there. It's similar to how the house falls to decay after Madame Leota materializes the ghosts, allowing them to come out of the woodwork (literally). If the Dreads are not interested in disorienting you, their presence makes those busts take on caricatured forms of their corruptible selves involuntarily.

As for the inscriptions, I place them in the same category as "I'll lower the safety bar for you" or "No flash pictures, please...we're frightfully sensitive to bright lights". They're just prompts, but they tried to make them fit without compromising the illusion. I wonder if they should have tried for more of a surprise factor by using delay timers and no text-based prompts, but it doesn't really bother me that they do. If you just take a passing glance at them, none of them stick out as something that doesn't belong in a graveyard.


They'll only whisper at you if you put your ear to them. Some people may not even notice it. I view the murder mystery a fun, little Easter egg. Their story isn't completely on the sidelines of the whole experience, but WDI has deliberately built it in so that it is not compulsory knowledge in order to enjoy the ride.

There's nothing actually impossible in what you're saying, but I'd put it beyond the point of reasonable believability, if for no other reason than the lack of any parallel for the phenomenon you describe in traditional ghost lore, namely, the sort of involuntary distortions in ghostly manifestations that you describe. It's a theory that must be made up on the spot for this particular case, as far as I can tell. In contrast, practically everything you find in the HM has some kind of parallel in "real" ghost lore, literature, or comic song. That way people are able to recognize what they're seeing as bona fide "ghost stuff" almost immediately.

 

[WDWGoof07]

There's nothing actually impossible in what you're saying, but I'd put it beyond the point of reasonable believability, if for no other reason than the lack of any parallel for the phenomenon you describe in traditional ghost lore, namely, the sort of involuntary distortions in ghostly manifestations that you describe. It's a theory that must be made up on the spot for this particular case, as far as I can tell. In contrast, practically everything you find in the HM has some kind of parallel in "real" ghost lore, literature, or comic song. That way people are able to recognize what they're seeing as bona fide "ghost stuff" almost immediately.

Is the unnatural state of preservation in the house before the seance completely voluntary? That is an implication I'm getting from the sentence I've bolded. Forgive me if I misread you, but I thought the unnatural preservation was an uncontrollable consequence of the house serving as a surrogate body for unmaterialized ghosts. But, we also observe that some ghosts are playing mind games with us voluntarily. That's why I thought voluntary and involuntary distortion of the environment due to ghosts were compatible within the HM.

 

[scottnj1966]

My April 1st visit of the Queue line

http://www.bigfloridacountry.com/hantedmansionqueue.htm

 

[HBG2]

Is the unnatural state of preservation in the house before the seance completely voluntary? That is an implication I'm getting from the sentence I've bolded. Forgive me if I misread you, but I thought the unnatural preservation was an uncontrollable consequence of the house serving as a surrogate body for unmaterialized ghosts. But, we also observe that some ghosts are playing mind games with us voluntarily. That's why I thought voluntary and involuntary distortion of the environment due to ghosts were compatible within the HM.

I guess I'm not following. The house has no will of its own, of course, and the spirits who have taken possession of it have been unable to leave it to materialize independently, something they apparently don't like. In the meanwhile, they have kept (or restored?) the house from falling into normal decay. This preservation, I would imagine, is done involuntarily, since they evidently feel no affection for their prison. Support for these notions comes from an early show script, stories like The Fall of the House of Usher, and use of a broadly similar motif in movies like Poltergeist. Now if I'm reading you correctly, you're arguing that the Dread family may be normal-looking, but their funerary artwork is distorted involuntarily into somewhat cartoonish form. Whose volition do you mean? The Dreads or some other spirits? If the Dreads are cruel, unhappy, restless spirits (a reasonable surmise, based on their appearance and history), you would expect them to be distorting things deliberately, in order to scare you, like the ghosts inside the house, who seem to have control over what they're manipulating. And yet what you see with the Dreads is more comic than frightening. If it's not them doing it but some other, happier spooks, what's the basis of introducing the dynamic of voluntary-vs.-involuntary appearance? What do those guys want to do? I'm sorry, I don't get it.

 

[WDWGoof07]

I guess I'm not following. The house has no will of its own, of course, and the spirits who have taken possession of it have been unable to leave it to materialize independently, something they apparently don't like. In the meanwhile, they have kept (or restored?) the house from falling into normal decay. This preservation, I would imagine, is done involuntarily, since they evidently feel no affection for their prison. Support for these notions comes from an early show script, stories like The Fall of the House of Usher, and use of a broadly similar motif in movies like Poltergeist.

Yes, that is what I meant. I think we understand each other now.

Now if I'm reading you correctly, you're arguing that the Dread family may be normal-looking, but their funerary artwork is distorted involuntarily into somewhat cartoonish form. Whose volition do you mean? The Dreads or some other spirits? If the Dreads are cruel, unhappy, restless spirits (a reasonable surmise, based on their appearance and history), you would expect them to be distorting things deliberately, in order to scare you, like the ghosts inside the house, who seem to have control over what they're manipulating. And yet what you see with the Dreads is more comic than frightening.

I'd say that the busts are "Haunted Mansion-scary" - creepy but darkly humorous. You have written that these busts are in the same art style as the warped halves of the Stretching Room portraits. These manipulations are meant to scare and disorient you. The warped portraits themselves are macabre gags. I'm just holding the queue busts to the same standard as the Stretching Room portraits.

If it's not them doing it but some other, happier spooks, what's the basis of introducing the dynamic of voluntary-vs.-involuntary appearance? What do those guys want to do? I'm sorry, I don't get it.

It is the presence of the Dreads themselves that is causing the distortion. If it's voluntary, then they are trying to unnerve you. If it's involuntary, then the distortion has manifested itself as a picture of their corrupt souls in the form of caricatures of the family. The nature of the ride would favor the former theory, but the latter could happen if the Dreads were just apathetic toward you, which is highly unlikely. I'm more inclined to think they're trying to unnerve you.

 

[HMF]

With the exception of the twins (implying murder of Children is not amusing)The Dread Family is the thing I probably find the least objectional in the new queue not counting the new tributes to the original Imagineers and Paul Frees which I really like.

 

[scottnj1966]

I have just a few comments on this thread and I have to say some of you all need to lighten up. If your this uptight and stressed because of a line for a ride your going to be one of the ghosts in this attraction before long.

Just have fun. If you don't like it, bypass it.
The while idea of this is to make the wait feel less then what it really is.
Something everyone should like.

 

[HMF]

I have just a few comments on this thread and I have to say some of you all need to lighten up. If your this uptight and stressed because of a line for a ride your going to be one of the ghosts in this attraction before long.

Just have fun. If you don't like it, bypass it.
The while idea of this is to make the wait feel less then what it really is.
Something everyone should like.

If this were a ride at Six Flags and not one of the finest attractions ever built by WED Enterprises I would agree with you.

 

[HBG2]

Yes, that is what I meant. I think we understand each other now.


I'd say that the busts are "Haunted Mansion-scary" - creepy but darkly humorous. You have written that these busts are in the same art style as the warped halves of the Stretching Room portraits. These manipulations are meant to scare and disorient you. The warped portraits themselves are macabre gags. I'm just holding the queue busts to the same standard as the Stretching Room portraits.


It is the presence of the Dreads themselves that is causing the distortion. If it's voluntary, then they are trying to unnerve you. If it's involuntary, then the distortion has manifested itself as a picture of their corrupt souls in the form of caricatures of the family. The nature of the ride would favor the former theory, but the latter could happen if the Dreads were just apathetic toward you, which is highly unlikely. I'm more inclined to think they're trying to unnerve you.

Okay, I think I'm following. The problem is, the stretchroom gags may be taken as veiled threats. Like leaving a dead cat on someone's porch. "Will this be you? Are you next?" That's how that bit of zany Davis humor blends in well into the Coats first half. Where is the macabre, implied threat in the Dread stuff? It doesn't seem to be the same kind of thing to me.

 

[HBG2]

I have just a few comments on this thread and I have to say some of you all need to lighten up. If your this uptight and stressed because of a line for a ride your going to be one of the ghosts in this attraction before long.

Just have fun. If you don't like it, bypass it.
The while idea of this is to make the wait feel less then what it really is.
Something everyone should like.

Okay, here's the mirror image of your post.

"I just have to say that you need to take this ride more seriously. You're too flippant about it. It's not just fun, it's ART, and if you don't recognize that, then don't ride it and don't comment on it."

How does that feel? You'll notice that I and others like me don't put up posts like that. That's because you are more than welcome to enjoy it the way you like to enjoy it. Nothing wrong with your approach. But the scolding lectures about lightening up and so forth fail to extend to people with our approach the same courtesy. Not picking on your post in particular, only the type it represents.

 

[WesternRiverExplorer]

I’m fine with the additions, but I do think they could, or should’ve, altered a few things. I’m not very fond of the placement of some of the old headstones. It really makes no sense that many of them have no room for a body. The odd thing is that there is even some unused space around some of them could’ve been used to extend the plots. At the very least I wish they had kept Master Gracey’s back up near the entrance with a freshly dug (full sized) plot. I also don’t know why WDI insists on making these interactive things often something that kids actively start banging on. The organ is great, really one of my favorite parts, but for some reason it didn’t seem to get the abuse the instrument walls get. It seems like there should be a way to subtly, almost subconsciously imply that these things are meant to be touched, not hit.

On a slightly off topic note, for some reason the Doombuggies kept stopping constantly today before I finally got on, and it caused a bit of a mess in the load area as stretch rooms kept releasing people and they kept crowding in with nowhere to go. It stopped at least 5 times while I was waiting to load. Anyone know what was going on?

 

[WDWGoof07]

Okay, I think I'm following. The problem is, the stretchroom gags may be taken as veiled threats. Like leaving a dead cat on someone's porch. "Will this be you? Are you next?" That's how that bit of zany Davis humor blends in well into the Coats first half. Where is the macabre, implied threat in the Dread stuff? It doesn't seem to be the same kind of thing to me.

The implied threat is there with regard to the Dreads. All of the busts are giving you a wicked stare. The last one you pass has a snake around his neck. He doesn't seem too concerned about it; rather, he's giving you that same menacing look, which seems to say, "You could be next". That indicates a threat in the same style as the Stretching Room. The order that you pass the busts helps convey this by incorporating a buildup from the staring busts that climaxes at the guy with the snake. The progression makes it that much spookier.

 

[HBG2]

The implied threat is there with regard to the Dreads. All of the busts are giving you a wicked stare. The last one you pass has a snake around his neck. He doesn't seem too concerned about it; rather, he's giving you that same menacing look, which seems to say, "You could be next". That indicates a threat in the same style as the Stretching Room. The order that you pass the busts helps convey this by incorporating a buildup from the staring busts that climaxes at the guy with the snake. The progression makes it that much spookier.

Well, this is where I must get off the bus, even though the ride has been fun. I simply can't believe those busts could seriously be understood as constituting an implied threat to the viewer. This is where the "oscillation" would be indispensable. If, for example, the Twins or Florence looked calm and normal one minute and somehow morphed into their current state, then I could see someone taking them as threatening. As it is, they're just some ornery-looking busts, like Aunt Lucretia in the Mansion, who is not really threatening until she turns and follows you. And Bertie, with his pet sea serpent, is simply not scary. (And it is his pet, evidently; he looks happy enough with it coiled around him, and according to the plaque he died of gunshot.)

 

[1stStarIC2nite]

To essentially all the people who are complaining about the new queue: The reality is - it's too late now. What's done is done, and that is that. Way too much money was spent on this - and research; Disney does have extensive reasoning behind almost everything they do - to just get rid of it - because some diehard Disney fans don't like it.

For the record, the interactive graveyard has been getting great reviews and praised by most guests. Interactive queues and such are the future of Disney theme parks, and if you hate it so much, then you should probably vacation elsewhere.

If you're that bothered by it, then use the bypass. You don't even have to acknowledge it, and can pretend it doesn't exist, and go right back to the traditional Haunted Mansion. I understand people don't like change, but people themselves change, and what they want to and what they're looking for changes all the time, and Disney is obviously trying to figure out the best way to accomodate everyone.

If you're a hardcore Disney fan, you should at least appreciate the details. The shoutouts to Paul Frees, the tombstones for the Hitchhiking ghosts, or the return of the Bride's diamond ring.

If you know nothing about Disney, you should have fun making music, speaking to a dead poetess, and more - keeping you occupied while you wait.

What if the Magic Kingdom opened with interactive queues in 1971? Would it be so bad then???

 

[Wilt Dasney]

To essentially all the people who are complaining about the new queue: The reality is - it's too late now. What's done is done, and that is that.

This isn't meant to be taken personally, but I think the people who keep saying this are missing the point of the discussion.

Nobody's under the impression that anything said in an online forum will change decisions made by a multinational corporate powerhouse. That's not the intent of the criticism.

People to this day debate whether certain things that will never be changed — tactical decisions in wars, sports and politics — were mistakes. Hell, you could make an argument that the entire job of historians is to argue over things nobody can change.

If most people walked into academic debates on whether Hitler over-extended his army by breaking the Molotov/Ribbentrop Non-Aggression Pact, or whether Churchill should have committed his country to war over Poland after allowing the Nazis to have Czechoslovakia, their response would probably not be "It doesn't matter! It's too late to do anything about it!"

Most folks would recognize the inherent value of analyzing the wisdom of these decisions, simply for how it can add to our understanding of the subject at hand.

Granted, the decision currently being discussed has far less relevance to civilization — but the principle is the same.

 

[hauntdmansion79]

I was reading one of my Imagineering Field Guide books and I was reading about the Haunted Mansion. It was talking about the famous debate we all know about between Claude Coats and Marc Davis over whether to make the Haunted Mansion creepy and dark or whimsical and funny. It said that in the end Marc's vision really won out but that Claude Coats' influence can be seen throughout the attraction, but specifically mentions the outside exterior of the attraction being purely his work. It made me wonder what HE would say about the extended queue.

That's who I wish we could hear from, Marc and Claude.