New Crypt Queue in Haunted Mansion-What do you think?

HBG2

Member
My point is if Walt and friends didn't want people to know it was a haunted mansion before riding it...they wouldn't have called it the haunted mansion. It just seems like everybody here always knows "what Walt would have done". Strangely, it almost always seems to be the opposite of what is actually done.

I'm a classic ride junkie sure...but I don't mind changes provided that they don't take away from the original experience(tiki room). The changes to HM and Pirates are perfect examples of changes I have no problem with. Even SSE isn't too bad, sure the end is a little cheesy with the vision of the future, but I still don't think it made the ride any worse from the previous version...a waste...sure.
The ride simulates a visit to a haunted house, so it's called the Haunted Mansion. You need something like "Haunted" or some equivalent in the title so people know it's a spookhouse, in case they don't WANT to go on a spookhouse ride. You aren't supposed to be actually, literally surprised to find that it's got ghosts in it. Imaginatively speaking, what you're "supposed to" think before going into this house is never specified. Are you just a curious soul who has heard rumors that this abandoned house is haunted? Probably something like that is all you need to get going.
 

TestTrack

Active Member
The ride simulates a visit to a haunted house, so it's called the Haunted Mansion. You need something like "Haunted" or some equivalent in the title so people know it's a spookhouse, in case they don't WANT to go on a spookhouse ride. You aren't supposed to be actually, literally surprised to find that it's got ghosts in it. Imaginatively speaking, what you're "supposed to" think before going into this house is never specified. Are you just a curious soul who has heard rumors that this abandoned house is haunted? Probably something like that is all you need to get going.

Which I'm fine with people thinking that, however I don't believe I have ever seen walt say "I want people to think that they are just going on a tour of an old house and not know its haunted until they get inside." If someone has a source that quotes something along these lines feel free to pass it on but I have a feeling many people just decide "what walt meant to do" in their heads. The post I originally quoted claimed "that's what Walt wanted" when we really have no idea how Walt would feel about the new queue and never will. This is of course assuming that Walt never made a mistake ;).

Personally, I think even the old queue was pretty evident that you were going into a haunted house...even disregarding the tombs and sign.
 

HBG2

Member
Which I'm fine with people thinking that, however I don't believe I have ever seen walt say "I want people to think that they are just going on a tour of an old house and not know its haunted until they get inside." If someone has a source that quotes something along these lines feel free to pass it on but I have a feeling many people just decide "what walt meant to do" in their heads. The post I originally quoted claimed "that's what Walt wanted" when we really have no idea how Walt would feel about the new queue and never will. This is of course assuming that Walt never made a mistake ;).

Personally, I think even the old queue was pretty evident that you were going into a haunted house...even disregarding the tombs and sign.
I completely agree with you that "what Walt intended" is a useless argument most of the time. What the Imagineers who created the HM intended, however, is not so hard to divine. Marc Davis was always clear that he didn't want "stories" in these rides, only sets of experiences. And sure enough, if there's a "story" in the original HM, I'd sure like to hear someone tell me what it is. The only "story" in there that I can find is what plays out in real time as you go through it. I keep saying this, and no one has seriously attempted to refute it. I don't need to pull a "Walt says" because IMO it's obvious. You just look at what is actually there, and draw a simple, reasonable conclusion.
 

wdwfan100

Active Member
We walked through the new queue area last thursday (3/23). We enjoyed it quite a bit. It was very entertaining to us. Imo it is a nce addition to the ride.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
My point is if Walt and friends didn't want people to know it was a haunted mansion before riding it...they wouldn't have called it the haunted mansion. It just seems like everybody here always knows "what Walt would have done". Strangely, it almost always seems to be the opposite of what is actually done.

I'm a classic ride junkie sure...but I don't mind changes provided that they don't take away from the original experience(tiki room). The changes to HM and Pirates are perfect examples of changes I have no problem with. Even SSE isn't too bad, sure the end is a little cheesy with the vision of the future, but I still don't think it made the ride any worse from the previous version...a waste...sure.
What they did to Spaceship Earth is probably the worst thing WDI has ever done to a classic attraction. This does not even come close.
 

Krack

Active Member
What they did to Spaceship Earth is probably the worst thing WDI has ever done to a classic attraction. This does not even come close.

Sadly, I'm not even sure if Spaceship Earth is in the Top 10. You've got the classics they completely removed - Horizons, World of Motion, Mr. Toad, Cranium Command. And you've got the classics they wrecked - Journey Into Imagination, Enchanted Tiki Room, the Backlot Tour. Then you've got other attractions (probably not considered "classics") that they basically removed, ruined or kiddie-fied - Alien Encounter, Kitchen Kabaret, Superstar Television, Monster Sound Show, El Rio del Tiempo, The Living Seas, Diamond Horseshoe Show, Body Wars, the Skyway. And then I think you get into the attractions where they screwed with a good thing and made it worse (or didn't even try to keep up with maintenance - letting it fall apart on purpose), but at least it's still kinda like the original classic - Spaceship Earth, Listen to the Land, Universe of Energy. I'd probably toss this queue at the bottom of the last category.
 

WDWGoof07

Well-Known Member
Signs are necessary evils. You have to have a sign somewhere telling people what the thing is, and that's it right there. It is no more a part of the imaginative experience than the green EXIT signs and safety bars. You screen them out and forget them. They always try to make these signs blend in as much as possible stylistically, so they don't stick out so much. They did a particularly nice job of this with the HM plaque, but it's still just a sign.

The Leota stone is designed to be barely noticed. Out of the corner of your eye "Wait, did that thing just move? Or did I imagine it?" That kind of thing. Sometimes that's exactly how it functions; other times, not quite so well. It's not supposed to be a blatant advertisement: "Hey, there are GHOSTS in here!"

The ride simulates a visit to a haunted house, so it's called the Haunted Mansion. You need something like "Haunted" or some equivalent in the title so people know it's a spookhouse, in case they don't WANT to go on a spookhouse ride. You aren't supposed to be actually, literally surprised to find that it's got ghosts in it. Imaginatively speaking, what you're "supposed to" think before going into this house is never specified. Are you just a curious soul who has heard rumors that this abandoned house is haunted? Probably something like that is all you need to get going.
The premise that the house is rumored to be haunted is supported by the integration of the ride within Liberty Square as a whole. For example, the narration on the riverboat refers to rumors that the house is haunted, among other things. This, we seem to agree on.

Given this premise, why does it matter where the threshold is beyond which your suspicions of ghosts being real are confirmed? After all, you meet the Ghost Host right when you step through the front door.


I completely agree with you that "what Walt intended" is a useless argument most of the time. What the Imagineers who created the HM intended, however, is not so hard to divine. Marc Davis was always clear that he didn't want "stories" in these rides, only sets of experiences. And sure enough, if there's a "story" in the original HM, I'd sure like to hear someone tell me what it is. The only "story" in there that I can find is what plays out in real time as you go through it. I keep saying this, and no one has seriously attempted to refute it. I don't need to pull a "Walt says" because IMO it's obvious. You just look at what is actually there, and draw a simple, reasonable conclusion.
No one is disputing this. The real question is why you think the interactive queue makes HM less of an "experience" (in the Marc Davis sense), which is what you seem to be implying.
 

Krack

Active Member
No one is disputing this. The real question is why you think the interactive queue makes HM less of an "experience" (in the Marc Davis sense), which is what you seem to be implying.

I can answer how I look at it. There's an overall "show" being presented that really climaxes twice. The first show (for lack of a better term) is spooky/scary. You approach the Mansion. It's dreary looking. You don't know what to expect inside. There is no sense that the light hearted second half (the funny/crazy) of the show is inside the building at all. Suspense builds as you walk through the queue. The cast members are playing their part. The foyer is creepy. Then you get in the elevator, the voice is creepy, and the stretching portraits slowly reveal from spooky to "funny". This whole experience is making the first-timer ask himself "Hey, maybe this isn't like the other Disney attractions, maybe it really is scary. But those portraits are kind of funny. I'm not sure what's going on here." It creates uneasy. Then *bang* the thunder crashes, the lights go out and there's a body hanging from the rafters. It's a scare that comes out of nowhere. That's climax #1.

Once you get in the Doom Buggies, everything is one part spooky, one part scary (the first-time rider is still not sure what to expect because the lighting crash in the elevator came out of nowhere, so something similarly startling and scary could conceivably happen at any time) until you descend from the attic into the graveyard. Once you are in the graveyard (what I would refer to as climax #2), Grim Grinning Ghosts is going full blast, and the rider has basically been put at ease as it becomes clear the ride is now truly Disney-style kooky/funny and it's not going to be (Alien Encounter-style) scary.

That's showmanship. That's crafting an entire experience for the audience that (like most great stories, books, plays, movies, shows) builds to a climax over time, then settles down and builds again to another climax. It's making the audience feel how it is designed to make the audience feel. It wants them questioning whether they are about to be scared to death or laughing.

To get to your question, some of the elements in this next gen queue, lessen the affect of the build up to the first climax ("Holy cow, that was scary and came out of nowhere), but setting the audience's mind at easy that "look at all these funny, kooky effects - just as you should expect inside the Mansion". It's telling the story out of order, imo. Reasonable people could argue over whether or not it's a good change to shorten the build-up to the first climax (scary lights out in the elevator) and tip-off the audience that they should expect the second climax (funny graveyard), but to me it is clear that it is a change. This is not how the attraction was implemented originally.

And the poetry book just looks ridiculous.
 

JustInTime

Well-Known Member
Some updates from yesterday:

Aging added to the busts plaques.


A rose on Master Gracey's tombstone.


A new tribute tomb for Collin Campbell, Mansion album artist.

Thank you for actually adding something to the discussion. Looking even better.
 

HBG2

Member
The premise that the house is rumored to be haunted is supported by the integration of the ride within Liberty Square as a whole. For example, the narration on the riverboat refers to rumors that the house is haunted, among other things. This, we seem to agree on.

Given this premise, why does it matter where the threshold is beyond which your suspicions of ghosts being real are confirmed? After all, you meet the Ghost Host right when you step through the front door.



No one is disputing this. The real question is why you think the interactive queue makes HM less of an "experience" (in the Marc Davis sense), which is what you seem to be implying.
I've been leaving the "show pacing" argument to others, who are making the point just fine without my help. By the time the GH speaks, you have been led slowly but surely into a creepy state of mind, so that it doesn't really jar you. The house itself, the graveyard, the howl, perhaps a glimpse of movement on the Leota stone. "This place kinda gives you the creeps" is just right for the doors to close behind you and the GH to start talking. The new queue bangs you over the head with noisy, goofy ghosts and ruins the slow build-up.

As for the ruining of the Davis-style "experience," first of all, the new queue and new additions to the interior (as it now seems) give you a story to look at first thing. It's someone else's story (the Dread family, the murder mystery). It's a backstory: the HM is now the setting for a story you're supposed to focus on. Second, that story doesn't involve realistic characters but cartoony characters that obviously are not depicting people as they are in our real world. I've never heard of anyone with a pet sea serpent that seems to have human intelligence, have you? So you're entering a fantasy world, not something recognizably like your own world. You yourself are no longer the main character; you're a spectator, because you don't live in a cartoon. As I've said many times, the original HM is a simulation of the real world, except that this time ghosts and ghostly activities are real. That way you never really feel like you've "left," like this is someone else's world, someone else's reality. People have found the HM to be uniquely seductive and psychologically engrossing because of it. That's why this ride generates interest far beyond any other ride. I think the new version of the WDW HM reduces it to the level of any other pretty-well-done ride.
 

mrpygmypuff

New Member
Ok...seriously people, you expect something deep about a typical "haunted bookshelf" setup? Its a classic staple of any haunted house/movie, books move in and out and fly around. This is all the bookshelf was ever intended to emulate. I'm not sure why you found their answer that its simply a bookshelf whose books move on their own so odd.

I can understand that some of the effects might be "annoying" if played with too much, I can understand the concern about the longevity of the tombs. However, I cannot understand why so many people are taking this so seriously. The old line was a walk under some tarps with a howling wolf in the background. Sure, there was some graves and most are still there. I cannot understand why so many people would take this so seriously.

Sorry, didn't mean to come off as if I was taking it "So Seriously". I guess my point was, if you remember? when EPCOT opened in 1982, the Journey into Imagination pavilion had all kinds of interactive areas, (that are now gone). My point being, 30 years of technical advances, where are they??? that's really all I was trying to say....

Personally, I also think that people are making way to much out of this, it's not the second coming for God's sake. It's a Queue people! A Queue.... I really don't get it
 

JustInTime

Well-Known Member
I've been leaving the "show pacing" argument to others, who are making the point just fine without my help. By the time the GH speaks, you have been led slowly but surely into a creepy state of mind, so that it doesn't really jar you. The house itself, the graveyard, the howl, perhaps a glimpse of movement on the Leota stone. "This place kinda gives you the creeps" is just right for the doors to close behind you and the GH to start talking. The new queue bangs you over the head with noisy, goofy ghosts and ruins the slow build-up.

As for the ruining of the Davis-style "experience," first of all, the new queue and new additions to the interior (as it now seems) give you a story to look at first thing. It's someone else's story (the Dread family, the murder mystery). It's a backstory: the HM is now the setting for a story you're supposed to focus on. Second, that story doesn't involve realistic characters but cartoony characters that obviously are not depicting people as they are in our real world. I've never heard of anyone with a pet sea serpent that seems to have human intelligence, have you? So you're entering a fantasy world, not something recognizably like your own world. You yourself are no longer the main character; you're a spectator, because you don't live in a cartoon. As I've said many times, the original HM is a simulation of the real world, except that this time ghosts and ghostly activities are real. That way you never really feel like you've "left," like this is someone else's world, someone else's reality. People have found the HM to be uniquely seductive and psychologically engrossing because of it. That's why this ride generates interest far beyond any other ride. I think the new version of the WDW HM reduces it to the level of any other pretty-well-done ride.

GIVE. IT. A. REST. Step away from the keyboard.
 

HMF

Well-Known Member
I was answering a specific set of questions from another board member.
Sorry HBG2, if you have an opinion other than "Disney can do no wrong and everybody who says otherwise is a silly fanboy who should get a life" people don't want to hear it. :kidding:shrug:
 

WDWGoof07

Well-Known Member
I've been leaving the "show pacing" argument to others, who are making the point just fine without my help. By the time the GH speaks, you have been led slowly but surely into a creepy state of mind, so that it doesn't really jar you. The house itself, the graveyard, the howl, perhaps a glimpse of movement on the Leota stone. "This place kinda gives you the creeps" is just right for the doors to close behind you and the GH to start talking. The new queue bangs you over the head with noisy, goofy ghosts and ruins the slow build-up.
Of course the pacing of the introduction is going to be different now, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing because it varies from the original iteration. I've detailed in an earlier post why this new queue actually adds to the spookiness in the ride's first act.

HBG2 said:
As for the ruining of the Davis-style "experience," first of all, the new queue and new additions to the interior (as it now seems) give you a story to look at first thing. It's someone else's story (the Dread family, the murder mystery). It's a backstory: the HM is now the setting for a story you're supposed to focus on.
The Dread family murder mystery thing is just a small part of the queue. It's purely atmospheric, and there's no good reason that a little character development of the ghosts would "de-personalize" the HM experience.

HBG2 said:
Second, that story doesn't involve realistic characters but cartoony characters that obviously are not depicting people as they are in our real world. I've never heard of anyone with a pet sea serpent that seems to have human intelligence, have you? So you're entering a fantasy world, not something recognizably like your own world. You yourself are no longer the main character; you're a spectator, because you don't live in a cartoon. As I've said many times, the original HM is a simulation of the real world, except that this time ghosts and ghostly activities are real. That way you never really feel like you've "left," like this is someone else's world, someone else's reality. People have found the HM to be uniquely seductive and psychologically engrossing because of it. That's why this ride generates interest far beyond any other ride. I think the new version of the WDW HM reduces it to the level of any other pretty-well-done ride.
The new queue doesn't damage this. You posted, in the Doombuggies forum, "The spirits demonstrate an ability to warp and alter the very fabric of the building...and they seem especially apt to play games with the artworks." If the ghosts can make busts sing, rooms stretch, and allow us to see through a ceiling, among other things, certainly these tricks can be pulled with objects more dimensional and tactile than paintings. The crypts are most likely distorted from their true forms, and perhaps the Dread family busts have taken the form of caricatures of their "corruptible mortal states", like the stretching room portraits. As such, the art style of the busts and crypts is consistent with pieces inside the mansion.

All this can be shown without making "Is it your imagination?" a meaningless question, and none of it comes at the expense of the mystery of the HM. Even if our suspicions of ghosts being real are confirmed right away, we do not see the metamorphosis with our own eyes and have no reason to suspect that the ghosts have this ability until the stretching room. When we do witness the transformation, we are still left questioning our imaginations just as before. Worse yet, as I detailed in the linked post above, there is an added element of fear that wasn't present before the queue - fear that the ghosts inside aren't as harmless as those outside, fear that, lulled into a false sense of security by the queue, we've been lured beyond the point of no return.

I don't buy that these new additions remove the HM from the real world anymore than it already has been. Even with the quieter pre-interactive queue intro, there was always an element of ghostly silliness. I don't see any difference between gravestones with darkly humorous epitaphs and the new busts in terms of "cartooniness".
 

WDWGoof07

Well-Known Member
I can answer how I look at it. There's an overall "show" being presented that really climaxes twice. The first show (for lack of a better term) is spooky/scary. You approach the Mansion. It's dreary looking. You don't know what to expect inside. There is no sense that the light hearted second half (the funny/crazy) of the show is inside the building at all. Suspense builds as you walk through the queue. The cast members are playing their part. The foyer is creepy. Then you get in the elevator, the voice is creepy, and the stretching portraits slowly reveal from spooky to "funny". This whole experience is making the first-timer ask himself "Hey, maybe this isn't like the other Disney attractions, maybe it really is scary. But those portraits are kind of funny. I'm not sure what's going on here." It creates uneasy. Then *bang* the thunder crashes, the lights go out and there's a body hanging from the rafters. It's a scare that comes out of nowhere. That's climax #1.

Krack said:
That's showmanship. That's crafting an entire experience for the audience that (like most great stories, books, plays, movies, shows) builds to a climax over time, then settles down and builds again to another climax. It's making the audience feel how it is designed to make the audience feel. It wants them questioning whether they are about to be scared to death or laughing.
Well, now, that first-time rider that was saying, "Oh, a silly haunted house," in the queue might feel more uneasy and creeped out when he reaches the stretching room ("Perhaps this is scarier than I thought"). The new queue adds another element of spookiness to the introduction. Sure, the pacing of the intro is necessarily different, but it's not necessarily a bad thing for being different.
 

Krack

Active Member
The new queue adds another element of spookiness to the introduction. Sure, the pacing of the intro is necessarily different, but it's not necessarily a bad thing for being different.

True. I even conceded it was "debatable" elsewhere in my post that you quoted. My question: Why screw with the most popular attraction in the park? Want to fix something (or improve something)? Improve something that isn't universally popular. It just feels like a few Imagineers got the keys to Mom & Dads' new car so they drove it because they could, not necessarily because they needed to (or should).
 

WDWGoof07

Well-Known Member
True. I even conceded it was "debatable" elsewhere in my post that you quoted. My question: Why screw with the most popular attraction in the park? Want to fix something (or improve something)? Improve something that isn't universally popular. It just feels like a few Imagineers got the keys to Mom & Dads' new car so they drove it because they could, not necessarily because they needed to (or should).
Indubitably there is something to be said for that old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", and there are more pressing matters to be addressed. However, I think the Imagineers believed that the richness of the HM lent itself to an even deeper experience and saw an opportunity with the new "Scene One" interactive queues WDW has been pushing lately. If this can be done without damaging the artistic integrity of a proven success, then all is well. There is a fine line, though, so the Imagineers must tread carefully when attempting something like this. In this case, I think they succeeded.
 

HBG2

Member
Of course the pacing of the introduction is going to be different now, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing because it varies from the original iteration. I've detailed in an earlier post why this new queue actually adds to the spookiness in the ride's first act.
I read your theory, and it's not bad, but there's one problem you need to address: inside, the ghosts are in a bad mood before they materialize and in a good mood afterwards. Incidentally, this accords with a lot of traditional ghost/spirit possession lore that the spirits are miserable while disembodied. You could argue that they are just play acting before the séance, but I think that's a little far-fetched. Look at the ghost trying to get free in the Conservatory. Just teasing? He sounds pretty authentically desperate to me. Compare that guy with the bubble-blowing Sea Captain and you see the problem.
The Dread family murder mystery thing is just a small part of the queue. It's purely atmospheric, and there's no good reason that a little character development of the ghosts would "de-personalize" the HM experience.
If the new props next to the HHG's are any indicator, the Dread family is going to be stuck into your face all through the ride. If some ghosts are given intriguing and complete little histories, the ones that aren't automatically take a back seat. I don't see how you can help that.
You posted, in the Doombuggies forum, "The spirits demonstrate an ability to warp and alter the very fabric of the building...and they seem especially apt to play games with the artworks." If the ghosts can make busts sing, rooms stretch, and allow us to see through a ceiling, among other things, certainly these tricks can be pulled with objects more dimensional and tactile than paintings. The crypts are most likely distorted from their true forms, and perhaps the Dread family busts have taken the form of caricatures of their "corruptible mortal states", like the stretching room portraits. As such, the art style of the busts and crypts is consistent with pieces inside the mansion.

All this can be shown without making "Is it your imagination?" a meaningless question, and none of it comes at the expense of the mystery of the HM. Even if our suspicions of ghosts being real are confirmed right away, we do not see the metamorphosis with our own eyes and have no reason to suspect that the ghosts have this ability until the stretching room. When we do witness the transformation, we are still left questioning our imaginations just as before. Worse yet, as I detailed in the linked post above, there is an added element of fear that wasn't present before the queue - fear that the ghosts inside aren't as harmless as those outside, fear that, lulled into a false sense of security by the queue, we've been lured beyond the point of no return.
I have a hard time following your argument that "Is it your imagination?" is left undamaged. The stretchroom question leaves you in doubt as to whether any of the distortions you see from then on are real or imaginary. Well, if you get your face too close to the crypt bookcase, you'll get a bloody nose. Pretty decisive answer to the question before it even has a chance to get asked. Also, your entrance into the place evidently causes a stir. Note that the GH is paying particular attention to you, he's talking to you. The busts turn and follow you. The possessed raven has his eye on you and even follows you around. In other words, all this warping and twisting of rooms and artworks is not just diddling around to pass the time but has a purpose: they're trying to scare you, to disorient you. But if the artwork and crypts in the queue are examples of the same kind of activity (right out in broad daylight?? and left that way permanently??), long before you ever came around, that doesn't make much sense (to say nothing of poor show pacing). If this was done to scare previous visitors (let's say), you would think they'd "put things back" when they were done. And besides, all of the "real or imaginary?" stuff indoors is meant to scare you and unnerve you (yes, even the stretchroom portraits: that's pretty macabre humor). This queue stuff, on the other hand, couldn't scare a Smurf on a dark and stormy night!

I don't buy that these new additions remove the HM from the real world anymore than it already has been. Even with the quieter pre-interactive queue intro, there was always an element of ghostly silliness. I don't see any difference between gravestones with darkly humorous epitaphs and the new busts in terms of "cartooniness".
The macabre epitaphs are not one bit goofier than real-world "boot hill" type epitaphs, so I don't think they're cartoony at all. But in the queue, evidently that's really supposed to be what Bertie looked like, sea serpent and all (unless you subscribe to your theory that the ghosts came out here and did a number on it and left it that way permanently, which seems like quite a stretch, as I've just explained). Bertie is exactly in the same style as ax-headed George in the widow painting, but that's the result of ghostly expansions of a normal-looking portrait. It just seems awfully hard to me to be standing there next to this new bust and use that same explanation to account for its unrealistic appearance.
 

Gracy_hm

Member
Well.

This has gone too far. I think this is a useless debate as a resolution will not be reached. The queue exists and will not be going anywhere thus conversation ends. All opinions and feelings equally valid.
 

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