New Crypt Queue in Haunted Mansion-What do you think?

[lazyboy97o]

So in other words, its easier, cheaper, and faster to "improve" the guest's experience by adding interactive elements to existing queues, rather than addressing the real issues of needing more legitimate attractions and improving the ones that already exist... (and not just their queues)

That is just my own thoughts on the matter. I am awaiting 3 June, as I am interested to see how the queues at The Little Mermaid and Star Tours 2 are all handled.

I have no problem with opinions, that's what these boards are all about. To be honest though, facts are not what concern me when I'm in WDW. Whether or not I enjoy the new queue, I'll enjoy the HM itself just as much as ever. I appreciate your desire to back up your point of view, I just can't go there myself. To me it's a rather small thing in a place with so many options.

To each his own I guess!

People say that, and yet something about Disney's approach to their parks draws them back even though plenty of other places offer entertainment, and usually for much less.

 

[HMF]

I have no problem with opinions, that's what these boards are all about. To be honest though, facts are not what concern me when I'm in WDW.

I'm not a fan of facts. You see, the facts can change, but my opinion will never change.-Stephen Colbert

 

[Skip]

I'd just like to say I'm in full support of HBG2's statements. I've read most of his work in the "Long Forgotten" threads on "the other site," and I've found all of it very deeply fascinating. This man has a true understanding of the Mansion - he's analyzed every bit of it, from many perspectives (from Imagineer to average joe). I'd really say he's the definitive Haunted Mansion expert, second only to the Imagineers who were deeply involved in the Mansion's original creation (A.K.A., the ones referenced on the infamous tombstones). Whether you all want to admit it or not, his logic holds up. The tone of the Haunted Mansion has been shifted, and in my (and his, and others') opinions, not in a good way.

I'm not a complete negative nancy. I LOVED most of the WDW Mansion upgrades from a few years ago (grand staircase, changing portraits - still undecided if I prefer Smurfette to Constance). I really like the new Pooh queue despite the operational problems it's likely to pose in the long-term. But this was a mistake. The Mansion isn't the type of place to toss in a collection of interactive gadgets - at least, not at the beginning of the attraction.

Think of it this way. Remember how George Lucas went and re-edited the original Star Wars trilogy, and made it so Greedo shot Hon first, not the other way around? That completely changed the tone of the scene. It changed our initial impression of Hon's character.

Here's another hypothetical example. In Jaws, the suspense (and brilliance) of the film is the fact that you never see the shark head-on until the final act. You see hints of its presence, and naturally peoples' reactions to it - but you never see the full shark itself until that last climactic act. Much is the same with the Haunted Mansion, but replace seeing the shark head-on with the materizliation of the ghosts. Now, imagine if Steven Spielburg went back and edited the film so you saw the shark in its entirety in the very first scene. Suddenly the entire film changes and much of that suspense, that anticipation, that dread is lost.

The Haunted Mansion is art, the closest thing to art you'll ever find in a theme park attraction. There are ways to improve and update art (it was done just a few years ago!) without changing its tone entirely.

 

[unkadug]

Here's an analogy for you over analyzers.

The new queue is similar to the Foreword to a book. Written by someone other than the Author and completely optional reading on the part of the reader. It is not necessary to understand the book and is there only to give a little more information if it is wanted.

Don't like this? Substitute "Preface" for "Foreword". (although I can already hear the argument's that it was written by the same authors.)

 

[Krack]

I'd just like to say I'm in full support of HBG2's statements. I've read most of his work in the "Long Forgotten" threads on "the other site," and I've found all of it very deeply fascinating. This man has a true understanding of the Mansion - he's analyzed every bit of it, from many perspectives (from Imagineer to average joe). I'd really say he's the definitive Haunted Mansion expert, second only to the Imagineers who were deeply involved in the Mansion's original creation (A.K.A., the ones referenced on the infamous tombstones). Whether you all want to admit it or not, his logic holds up. The tone of the Haunted Mansion has been shifted, and in my (and his, and others') opinions, not in a good way.

I'm going to go ahead and agree with this (even though I don't agree entirely with all of HBG2's conclusions). He's making conclusions based on obvious thoughtful reflection on the attraction itself over the last 40 years. The vast majority of people arguing with him are just saying "you shouldn't worry about it" or "you're thinking too much". It's the functional equivalent of people who apologize for bad popcorn films by saying "It's just a movie, it's not supposed to make sense. Stop thinking about it."

The truth is, it is possible to make additions to a 40 year old attraction that match the original's tone, story and mood - just as it's possible to make a summer blockbuster film that is exciting AND tells a coherent, solid story. It's the difference between Transformers and Raiders of the Lost Ark. They both may have made a ton of money. They both may be very popular. But that doesn't mean they are of equal quality.

I guess what I'm trying to say is ... for the most part, what we are seeing is either (a) people apologizing vehemently for Disney, simply because they are Disney, or (b) people blissfully unaware of particular details of the attraction (in some instances, that have been there 40 years) and upset that others have greater knowledge of or appreciation for these details and lashing back - sort of a "If I don't care about it, it's not worthy of being cared about, so you shouldn't care about it."

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

bollocks

 

[jakeman]

I guess what I'm trying to say is ... for the most part, what we are seeing is either (a) people apologizing vehemently for Disney, simply because they are Disney, or (b) people blissfully unaware of particular details of the attraction (in some instances, that have been there 40 years) and upset that others have greater knowledge of or appreciation for these details and lashing back - sort of a "If I don't care about it, it's not worthy of being cared about, so you shouldn't care about it."

You got it...we are all just either apologist or jealous.

You found us out! What are we going to do?

Interesting note, I asked several pages back for citations on all the "facts" in this thread and none have shown up.

Until I see a bibliography for the literal pages of opinions that have been posted, I will continue to see them as nothing more than the ramblings of a dedicated fan.

It shouldn't be a problem. Hours have been spent posting these opinions. What's a few more to actually back them up with a few interviews, books, and page numbers?

Why would I or anyone else engage in, as of right now, what seems to be nothing more than a micturation contest on who is the most familiar (and therefore most contemptuous) of the Haunted Mansion?

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

Here's an analogy for you over analyzers.

The new queue is similar to the Foreword to a book. Written by someone other than the Author and completely optional reading on the part of the reader. It is not necessary to understand the book and is there only to give a little more information if it is wanted.

Don't like this? Substitute "Preface" for "Foreword". (although I can already hear the argument's that it was written by the same authors.)

I don't know that I think this is valid. Hasn't this new queue initiative been referred to as "Scene One", the idea being that they're starting the story while you're in line so you're always immersed? Scene One of an attraction would surely be the equivalent to Chapter One of a book.

Imagine your favorite novel (or at least one you respect) has had the first chapter re-written by a new author, and that new chapter goes against the logic that is described in the following chapters. "Marley was Dead to begin with" becomes "Scrooge had been haunted by Marley's ghost for years". The coming events should read less effective, I think. Or at least, if it's not an obvious and dramatic improvement, is it really worth the investment just to break even creatively? Though I'm not sure that matters -- it appears these changes were made in an effort to expand park capacity, not retain creative integrity. I appreciate their efforts to expand the show, but I don't feel the effort outweighed the negative impact of the idea. They've lost the Forest for the Trees.

This is especially sad in the case of the 40 year old Haunted Mansion -- it is certainly an achievement for any given media to thrive on it's own merits for that long, and I feel these new additions undermine this accomplishment by supplementing the attraction with content of a lesser quality than the existing. The adding of the props in the Hitchhiking Ghost scene only add insult to injury -- again, they did attempt creative cohesion by including elements of the queue in the attraction, but it once again is (literally) misplaced. The Hitchhikers are almost unarguably the most iconic moment in the attraction, and the simple phrase of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" covers it nicely.

It is nice to see an effort being made in the parks, but when the net gain is zero or less creatively it can be upsetting. It does not appear that the Haunted Mansion was an attraction that lent itself to such changes, and even if it did were they really necessary?

Another place, another park, whatever. Sometimes content is only as good as it's context allows it to be. This content does not suit it's context, and I feel it has the potential to cheapen the experience.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

Interesting note, I asked several pages back for citations on all the "facts" in this thread and none have shown up.

Until I see a bibliography for the literal pages of opinions that have been posted, I will continue to see them as nothing more than the ramblings of a dedicated fan.

It shouldn't be a problem. Hours have been spent posting these opinions. What's a few more to actually back them up with a few interviews, books, and page numbers?

I don't know that I'm allowed to link to Micechat here, and if that's the case then Mods, feel free to edit this (as you have every right to), but here are pages upon pages of discussion about the Haunted Mansion's creative origins. It will literally take you days to read them all (and this is just the tip of the iceberg -- Doombuggies.com is another place to look for such conversation

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyland-resort/56224-long-forgotten-haunted-mansion-effect.html

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyla...gotten-haunted-mansion-effect-thread-2-a.html

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyla...gotten-haunted-mansion-effect-thread-3-a.html

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyla...aunted-mansion-effect-episode-4-new-hope.html

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyla...nsion-effect-vs-army-darkness-thread-5-a.html

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyla...n-effect-part-6-prequel-time-unrelenting.html

http://micechat.com/forums/disneyla...on-effect-thread-7-further-realms-fright.html


Some of the most notable contributors to these discussions are posting in this thread as well, so it's worth reading to gain further insight on their perspective.

The fact that this attraction can perpetuate such involved and exhaustive conversation for that long among that many people is a testament to the depth of it's material. Not everyone needs to understand it on this level, but the idea that you can delve into it's inner workings this thoroughly is unique to this attraction. The only other that comes close is Pirates, and even those threads of thought don't stick to the wall the way the Mansion's do. You don't have to place it on the pedestal of Art, but up til this year you'd be hard pressed to find the breaking point of that idea even if you'd tried.

 

[Krack]

You got it...we are all just either apologist or jealous.

Nope - apologist or blissfully unaware (I prefer my own words, thank you. I suppose I could have said "happily ignorant"). Jealousy has nothing to do with it.

 

[WDW1974]

21 pages? for a queue? (did it even open yet?)

Did I miss anything?

I KNOW this is a very-important deal in the world today because it was on the front page of what's left of my local newspaper (and no, I don't live in O-Town and no, I am not joking).

I think I'm going to build an interactive queue in my fanboi dungeon ...

 

[Krack]

21 pages? for a queue? (did it even open yet?)

Did I miss anything?

I KNOW this is a very-important deal in the world today because it was on the front page of what's left of my local newspaper (and no, I don't live in O-Town and no, I am not joking).

I think I'm going to build an interactive queue in my fanboi dungeon ...

I'm shocked, shocked to find that discussions of Walt Disney World are going on in my favorite Walt Disney World discussion forum.

 

[Malvito]

I guess what I'm trying to say is ... for the most part, what we are seeing is either (a) people apologizing vehemently for Disney, simply because they are Disney, or (b) people blissfully unaware of particular details of the attraction (in some instances, that have been there 40 years) and upset that others have greater knowledge of or appreciation for these details and lashing back - sort of a "If I don't care about it, it's not worthy of being cared about, so you shouldn't care about it."

There is a third alternative that you either do not see or choose to ignore: it is the approach of HBG2, as well as this poster's supporters.

It is clear that HBG2 has given this subject a lot of thought. I don't argue with that; it deepens the experience for his/her, and for that, more power to the supporters of this particular interpretation.

Unfortunately, this interpretation has been expressed in the form of posts that give the impression of "This is my interpretation; I am right and everyone who doesn't see it my way is wrong," an impression that is very alienating to those of us who do not share this particular point of view. And, frankly, Krack, statements like "...people blissfully unaware of particular details of the attraction (in some instances, that have been there 40 years) and upset that others have greater knowledge of or appreciation for these details..." don't help the situation; they only deepen it.

You accuse the other side of "lashing back," but, frankly, there is a lot of lashing going on from your side, as well. Physician, heal thyself.

HM is my favorite attraction at MK. I refuse to get bent out of shape because Imagineering has elected to add interactivity to the queue. And, frankly, I don't care what you think about that particular attitude, but if you are going to start calling me names because of it, don't expect a lot of positive feedback.

 

[Krack]

There is a third alternative that you either do not see or choose to ignore: it is the approach of HBG2, as well as this poster's supporters.

It is clear that HBG2 has given this subject a lot of thought. I don't argue with that; it deepens the experience for his/her, and for that, more power to the supporters of this particular interpretation.

Unfortunately, this interpretation has been expressed in the form of posts that give the impression of "This is my interpretation; I am right and everyone who doesn't see it my way is wrong," an impression that is very alienating to those of us who do not share this particular point of view. And, frankly, Krack, statements like "...people blissfully unaware of particular details of the attraction (in some instances, that have been there 40 years) and upset that others have greater knowledge of or appreciation for these details..." don't help the situation; they only deepen it.

You accuse the other side of "lashing back," but, frankly, there is a lot of lashing going on from your side, as well. Physician, heal thyself.

HM is my favorite attraction at MK. I refuse to get bent out of shape because Imagineering has elected to add interactivity to the queue. And, frankly, I don't care what you think about that particular attitude, but if you are going to start calling me names because of it, don't expect a lot of positive feedback.

I think you are so hung up on attacking the messenger over tone, that you don't really care what the message is. If you don't like being called "blissfully unaware", I'm sorry that upsets you, but it's the tamest way I could think of to express that viewpoint (a viewpoint I still hold despite your posting).

If I'm watching Raiders of the Lost Ark and I say to my friend, "I love Indiana Jones. He's such a heroic figure, almost like he's been a great guy his entire life, always doing the right thing," and my friend explains to me that if you look at the subtle clues of the film - that he was in his mid-20s having a romantic affair with a 16 year old girl, that everyone but his best friend describes him as a grave robber, that he's entirely self-obsessed until the last 20 minutes of the film (that they made an entire prequel explaining he spent his youth concerned only with "fortune and glory") - my first reaction is not to say "Oh, you spend too much time thinking about things" or "just enjoy it" or "I'm not going to get bent out of shape worrying about it." I'd generally be thankful the person explained to me something hidden beneath the surface and improved my understanding of the story.

That is what I mean by "blissfully unaware". HBG2 is explaining things in the attraction that are in some cases hidden beneath the surface (and in other instances obvious, imo). Instead of saying "hmm, I never thought about it that way," or "I disagree because of [insert fact based analysis of the story here]," people are just saying "Stop being a fanboy" (as if that's a perjorative on a WDW message board) or "You're thinking about it too much" - as if being knowledgeable about the subject or having informed opinions (even if they are debatable) is something he should be ashamed of. I disagree.

You accuse the other side of "lashing back," but, frankly, there is a lot of lashing going on from your side, as well. Physician, heal thyself.

I openly admit there is plenty of "lashing" going on from the (for lack of a better name) Anti-Next-Gen HM Queue side. They don't like the changes. I don't like the changes.

 

[HBG2]

You got it...we are all just either apologist or jealous.

You found us out! What are we going to do?

Interesting note, I asked several pages back for citations on all the "facts" in this thread and none have shown up.

Until I see a bibliography for the literal pages of opinions that have been posted, I will continue to see them as nothing more than the ramblings of a dedicated fan.

It shouldn't be a problem. Hours have been spent posting these opinions. What's a few more to actually back them up with a few interviews, books, and page numbers?

Why would I or anyone else engage in, as of right now, what seems to be nothing more than a micturation contest on who is the most familiar (and therefore most contemptuous) of the Haunted Mansion?

I really don't know what kind of "facts" you're referring to, or what kind of "citation" you mean. In the meantime, perhaps some stats would interest you and the others who think it's just a funsy ride and people like me are making something out of nothing, overdoing it, taking something serious that should not be.

Four years ago I started a thread over at Micechat discussing some early changes in the HM and wondering if anyone else remembered them. That thread quickly evolved into a free-wheeling discussion of Mansion art, history, background info, and analysis. What some of you refer to as "bollocks."

Explain this:

That thread is still running, after four years. It totals 15,184 posts as of right now, and has had a total of about 600,000 views. Imagineers read it. yensidtlaw provided some links above.

I spun off a blog from it, started about a year ago. It averages about 500 views per day these days. When a new post goes up, I generally get about 3000 views within the first day, from all over the world (they seem to really like it in Portugal, for some reason). In the Comments section you can read the comments of well-known Imagineers who have become friends of mine over time.

The art director and show designer for this WDW queue is Peter Carsillo. He has exchanged several PMs with me over the past week and personally wants to open a private dialogue with me to discuss the project, having read my very negative comments. He tells me he's a big fan of the blog. He also reads and enjoys MasterGracey's HM blog, which has evolved into a very handsome and informative site.

So please explain to me, folks, how a mere theme park ride, a piece of funsy entertainment and no more, has inspired all of this? I suppose a lot of this is going to look like bragging to many of you. Well, you already don't like me, so—nothing lost there. I'm not about to take credit. It's the subject matter, the Mansion, that is the magnet here, NOT me. This is literally without parallel, something utterly unique. Explain it, please.

 

[jakeman]

So...no facts then?

 

[Wilt Dasney]

So...no facts then?

I hate to look like I'm "taking sides" here (I really just enjoy reading the thread), but is this a fair criticism?

The guy has largely posted conclusions of opinion derived from known aspects of the attraction. You either think his logic and reasoning hold up or you don't, but how can someone "cite" an opinion? :shrug:

 

[HBG2]

So...no facts then?

Seriously, I don't know what you mean when you use the word "facts." This is all about whether it's a work of art that can be critiqued as such or isn't such a thing and shouldn't be critiqued as if it were. Now if I say, e.g., "You'll notice that no ghost is visible before Madame Leota," or "No ghost is in a good mood before it is materialized," those are statements of fact. They may be correct or incorrect, but that's the kind of statement those are. You counter them by pointing out stuff that contradicts them. It's called argument. What's all this about "books" and "citations"?

 

[jakeman]

Here you go.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it as much as I am to mine. But while everyone is entitled to their own opinions, no one is entitled to their own facts. I think it is a fact that the fundamental concept of the ride has been changed. If you say, "Yes, perhaps it has, but that's okay with me," then fine. But if you say, "No, it hasn't," then I think you are wrong about the facts, and I'll take on anyone who would like to debate the point. If someone is not only not interested in such a debate, but not interested in letting others have the debate without insulting them, then I think that's rude. If someone think it's all silly, they can scroll on past, you know.

You haven't cited anything concrete.

You have many many assumptions, but nothing official that I have seen presented here. Therefore, everything is still just your opinion.

I simply asked you to support your opinion with cited references from an official source.

 

[WereMagicLives]

im going to the world in august cant wait to see it!:sohappy: