My Magic + details ...

flynnibus

Premium Member
A ratio being 10/1 has nothing to do with the percent of ride capacity taken up by FP. They are two *entirely*s, different things. Plus, that's a kind of obnoxious response "your really don't know, do you".

It does because it's at merge... at that point the line is 'solid' enough to feed the capacity of the ride. You have to make an assumption that demand is sufficient to feed the machine. It's also why they give out more FPs than actual redemption, because they know a percentage will never show. So they actually give out more FPs than their actual intended merge ratio.
 

KingStefan

Well-Known Member
It does because it's at merge... at that point the line is 'solid' enough to feed the capacity of the ride. You have to make an assumption that demand is sufficient to feed the machine. It's also why they give out more FPs than actual redemption, because they know a percentage will never show. So they actually give out more FPs than their actual intended merge ratio.
All I'm saying is that if there are 10 times as many people on standby than on FP, it does *not* mean that they have given out 90% of the capacity to FP. That is a gross misconception, but many people seem to believe that is the case.
 

KingStefan

Well-Known Member
One fear I have (besides the main ones I've already expressed) is that all the available FP+s for the popular rides will be gone way before I get to the park. There ought to be a way of restricting this somehow, so that more FP+ become available only after park opening - or something like that.

I have not seen anybody make this analogy yet: does anybody remember pre-ADR madness times? When you could walk up to the podium outside most any sit-down restaurant and get a time for the same day, even the most popular ones? I miss being able to do that.

I'm afraid it's going to come to this: if you don't make FP+ reservations for Soarin' (for example) 60-days out, your going to be stuck with standby for Soarin' for the whole duration of your trip. 59-days will not be soon enough, you'll have to make them exactly 60-days out or you will be OOL.

Anybody else thought about this?
 

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
One fear I have (besides the main ones I've already expressed) is that all the available FP+s for the popular rides will be gone way before I get to the park. There ought to be a way of restricting this somehow, so that more FP+ become available only after park opening - or something like that.

I have not seen anybody make this analogy yet: does anybody remember pre-ADR madness times? When you could walk up to the podium outside most any sit-down restaurant and get a time for the same day, even the most popular ones? I miss being able to do that.

I'm afraid it's going to come to this: if you don't make FP+ reservations for Soarin' (for example) 60-days out, your going to be stuck with standby for Soarin' for the whole duration of your trip. 59-days will not be soon enough, you'll have to make them exactly 60-days out or you will be OOL.

Anybody else thought about this?
Just EVERY local AP holder.
 

71jason

Well-Known Member
One fear I have (besides the main ones I've already expressed) is that all the available FP+s for the popular rides will be gone way before I get to the park. There ought to be a way of restricting this somehow, so that more FP+ become available only after park opening - or something like that.

I have not seen anybody make this analogy yet: does anybody remember pre-ADR madness times? When you could walk up to the podium outside most any sit-down restaurant and get a time for the same day, even the most popular ones? I miss being able to do that.

I'm afraid it's going to come to this: if you don't make FP+ reservations for Soarin' (for example) 60-days out, your going to be stuck with standby for Soarin' for the whole duration of your trip. 59-days will not be soon enough, you'll have to make them exactly 60-days out or you will be OOL.

Anybody else thought about this?

I think this is exactly the case. And as word gets out among medium-information guests--not completely clueless, but not WDWMagic posters, either--that "all the good Fastpasses are gone before you get there anyway," it will discourage use of the system. And the casual guests never had a chance.

BTW, on the subject of FP and lines, Universal presents a real world response to your theories. They eliminated free Fastpass (essentially limiting it to a small subset of guests) around 2005 or 2006, lines immediately went down, have yet to go back up to pre-FP lines in the years since despite a marked increase in attendance.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
All I'm saying is that if there are 10 times as many people on standby than on FP, it does *not* mean that they have given out 90% of the capacity to FP. That is a gross misconception, but many people seem to believe that is the case.

I have no idea where you got that notion... what you replied to did not infer that at all. I think you're arguing against something no one is saying.

Standby's length/wait is purely a function of people's willingness to wait for an attraction. It is by definition secondary to the FP line.. and the allocation of FP distribution and merge is where the ratio is truly defined because standby is held back to allow FP through.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
A ratio being 10/1 has nothing to do with the percent of ride capacity taken up by FP. They are two *entirely*s, different things. Plus, that's a kind of obnoxious response "your really don't know, do you".

You are confusing ride capacity and demand. Let's say a ride has a capacity of 2,000/hr. If you give out half the capacity FP (1,000) per hour, that leaves half for standby. If in the first hour, 2,000 standby riders show up, then you have a 1-hr wait.

Normally, you'd expect a FP wait time to be about 0 (that's the whole idea, isn't it), but if everyone shows up right at the beginning of a window, there will be some irregularity. In the example above, there will be no riders waiting on the FP line, and 1,000 riders on standby. Technically that's a ratio of infinity, but say for the sake of argument that a lot of FP riders show up at once and there are 50 on line. That's a ratio of 20-to-1 on line. But still only 50% of the ride's capacity have been reserved for FP.

If the real demand for the ride is 3,000 riders that hour (as it is in the example above - 1,000 for FP riders, and 2,000 arriving as standby), and there is no FP, then 2,000 riders will be serviced the first hour, and 1,000 will be left on line - the same as if there were FP.

One could argue that not having FP would reduce the demand, and therefore the line would be shorter. That's true. So let's suppose that the lack of FP reduces the demand from 3,000 to 2,500, then you have 1/2 hour wait at the end of the hour, and 500 riders who were so unhappy with the wait times that they didn't get to ride at all. I don't see how this improves the situation.

No matter how you cut it up, FP=good, and lack of FP does *not* reduce wait times, except if you consider riders who gave up in frustration.
Any attraction’s line length is influenced by supply and demand. As you allude to, this combines elements of queuing and game theories.

A few points to consider:

Regardless of whatever form of queuing mechanism is used, capacity is essentially fixed at WDW. (Yes, they sometimes reduce capacity during slower times but I’m focusing on what might be considered normal operation.) Therefore at WDW, line length is determined solely by demand.

If there were no human element, FP would neither increase or decrease total wait time. FP simply redistributes wait time. If I get to wait less for an attraction because of FP, then someone else has to wait longer.

Although introduced over 14 years ago, most WDW guests use FP on a very limited basis. Disney tried to educate guests for years, yet despite its best efforts, FP usage tends to be dominated by a limited set of super-users who use it disproportionately. These tend to be locals or others who visit WDW frequently. These super-users often can score a dozen or more FPs in a day.

FP allows a user to effectively occupy two lines at once, artificially inflating demand.

Guests tend to self-regulate when it comes to the Standby line. The Standby line can be thought of as the price of admission. Disproportionately, infrequent WDW visitors are willing to pay higher prices. If I’m on a once-in-a-lifetime trip to WDW, I’m more likely to be willing to wait 120 minutes for TSM than someone who has ridden TSM dozens of times before.

When viewed together, FP means that a disproportionate number of experienced WDW guests get more FP than inexperienced WDW guests. Inevitably, it’s these inexperienced WDW guests who suffer, standing in sometimes insanely long lines to just so they can experience an attraction once in their lifetimes, while those who have experienced that same attraction dozens of times speed right by them.

Eliminating FP would reduce overall demand on the system because WDW’s super-users would be forced to stand in the same lines as less experienced guests. I’m an experienced WDW guest and know that I need to grab a TSM FP first thing in the morning. If I miss that, I’m forced to stand in line like the unfortunate souls in the Standby line. I’ve been on TSM dozens of times. Tell me that I need to wait 120 minutes and I am going to skip it on this trip. I go to WDW a lot and maybe the line will be shorter next trip or maybe I’ll show up for opening the next time before the line gets too long.

Eliminate FP and demand declines. As a result, total wait time decreases and the inexperienced WDW guest has a much more enjoyable experience. The experienced guest, well, they're going to come back again-and-again no matter what Disney does.

FP+ is not about improving guest satisfaction. Instead, as CFO Jay Rasulo said, “if we can get people to plan their vacation before they leave home, we know that we get more time with them. We get a bigger share of their wallet.”

FP+ is not being implemented for “guests”; it’s being implemented for corporate Disney.
 
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muteki

Well-Known Member
Better safe than sorry!
Exactly! I haven't read anything that prevents you from doing it, and if there are no repercussions, why not?

It is an incredibly silly way of doing things, but they don't seem to care about it. Unless there is a separate pool for AP's or something else we don't know about. I don't think they put any thought into the AP situation with FP+ at all.
 

luv

Well-Known Member
One fear I have (besides the main ones I've already expressed) is that all the available FP+s for the popular rides will be gone way before I get to the park. There ought to be a way of restricting this somehow, so that more FP+ become available only after park opening - or something like that.

I have not seen anybody make this analogy yet: does anybody remember pre-ADR madness times? When you could walk up to the podium outside most any sit-down restaurant and get a time for the same day, even the most popular ones? I miss being able to do that.

I'm afraid it's going to come to this: if you don't make FP+ reservations for Soarin' (for example) 60-days out, your going to be stuck with standby for Soarin' for the whole duration of your trip. 59-days will not be soon enough, you'll have to make them exactly 60-days out or you will be OOL.

Anybody else thought about this?
I think everyone who doesn't get into the whole, "I'm going to call 180 days early, at 7:00 a.m. for my ADRs!" thing has thought of this.

I try to look at things from the typical tourist point of view. They didn't call 180 days out for dinner reservations and they won't call 60 days out for ride reservations. They're going to get plane seats, book a hotel and maybe buy tickets (maybe not, lol) before they arrive. They're going to be very disappointed if they can't eat in a sit-down restaurant and can't ride Space Mtn because they didn't call up months ago to make appointments to do it.

As a local, I worry about Disney creating long waits for smaller rides. I'm fine with the way things are now, but if I'm going to have to wait 30 minutes for IASW or Maelstrom, it will be very disappointing. This will affect typical tourists, too. But that's my personal take on it.

I couldn't believe it when I saw that they were putting in FP for SSE. Why create waits? It's unnecessary!

But I have to wait and see how it all works out.
 

wogwog

Well-Known Member
I think this is exactly the case. And as word gets out among medium-information guests--not completely clueless, but not WDWMagic posters, either--that "all the good Fastpasses are gone before you get there anyway," it will discourage use of the system. And the casual guests never had a chance.

BTW, on the subject of FP and lines, Universal presents a real world response to your theories. They eliminated free Fastpass (essentially limiting it to a small subset of guests) around 2005 or 2006, lines immediately went down, have yet to go back up to pre-FP lines in the years since despite a marked increase in attendance.

Perhaps you do not know or forgot to include a little important information about Universal that is very significant that Disney would love to add as an "enhancement" to MM minus in the future. I have not been to Uni in probably five or more years but I remember a Fast Pass at Universal was offered for sale above the cost of the ticket price. The price goes up and down based on attendance. I believe the price I saw on my long ago visit was in the neighborhood of $70 in addition to park admission the day I was there. I think that was very close to the park admission then which effectively doubled the price with the fast pass option. It also had the restriction of using it only once per attraction. I will assure you Disney has discussed this in planning MM minus as a future enhancement. Be careful what you wish for or you may see the same option at Disney in the future. I believe Uni rolls the price automatically into the price of an on property hotel and "gives" them to guests staying on property. But the price of a room at Uni probably higher than Disney. I am sure Disney would be glad to do that and increase all rack rates by the appropriate amount even if you diid not want a fast pass. I travel a lot and the majority of resort or even good non-resort hotels love to add on an extra fee over the rack rate for use of the health club or even the pool even if you do not use them. Many people do not notice the fee until check out.

I am sure someone on this site is much more familiar with Uni than I and can verfy or tell me if it is changed.
 

71jason

Well-Known Member
I have not been to Uni in probably five or more years but I remember a Fast Pass at Universal was offered for sale above the cost of the ticket price. The price goes up and down based on attendance.

This is still the case--but again, few guests seem to take advantage of it. But years ago, Universal also offered a close knock-off of traditional Fastpasss. Kiosks where you put your ticket in, a Fastpass came out. They ripped those out one day, limiting Fastpass to the for-sale option, and lines went down.
 

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
Perhaps you do not know or forgot to include a little important information about Universal that is very significant that Disney would love to add as an "enhancement" to MM minus in the future. I have not been to Uni in probably five or more years but I remember a Fast Pass at Universal was offered for sale above the cost of the ticket price. The price goes up and down based on attendance. I believe the price I saw on my long ago visit was in the neighborhood of $70 in addition to park admission the day I was there. I think that was very close to the park admission then which effectively doubled the price with the fast pass option. It also had the restriction of using it only once per attraction. I will assure you Disney has discussed this in planning MM minus as a future enhancement. Be careful what you wish for or you may see the same option at Disney in the future. I believe Uni rolls the price automatically into the price of an on property hotel and "gives" them to guests staying on property. But the price of a room at Uni probably higher than Disney. I am sure Disney would be glad to do that and increase all rack rates by the appropriate amount even if you diid not want a fast pass. I travel a lot and the majority of resort or even good non-resort hotels love to add on an extra fee over the rack rate for use of the health club or even the pool even if you do not use them. Many people do not notice the fee until check out.

I am sure someone on this site is much more familiar with Uni than I and can verfy or tell me if it is changed.
Universal doesn't add it into the room rate. You can get up to 4 Express Passes per room for both your check-in day and your check out day. So you can get roughly $560 worth of express passes with a one night stay at a Universal Resort.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Universal doesn't add it into the room rate. You can get up to 4 Express Passes per room for both your check-in day and your check out day. So you can get roughly $560 worth of express passes with a one night stay at a Universal Resort.

I got 5 without any additional charge for the EP... dunno what the limits are beyond what are you allowed to book into the room as true guests
 

ASilmser

Active Member
Just got back from a WDW vacation where we spent approximately 3 ½ weeks staying in 3 different resorts. We stayed at Bay Lake Tower for our last week, and were chosen to participate in a “small” test run for Magic Bands and FastPass+ (about 200 rooms at two resorts). The dates that we stayed at BLT were July 24-July 31. There were 8 people total staying in our 2 bedroom villa, and I think Disney loved us because we had all sorts of ticket Media to register and test. Some had magic your way hoppers, one had a Florida residence AP and we had DVC discounted APs. We also had about four different households and 4 different charge cards for purchases attached to our rooms. This gave the system a real work-out. I have a few thoughts and observations about our experience that have confirmed some of the rumors I’ve been reading and may dispel others:



1. I think the Magic Bands are here to stay, and I am a fan of the concept. It was ultra-convenient to be able to have my room key, my charge card, my park passes, my meal plan/snack credits and my FastPasses all in one place. Everyone in our group unanimously agreed that this took a huge weight off of the constant pocket/purse searching that we usually do on our trips for all of the media that we have to keep track of. It was, on a small scale, one of those inventions where you don’t know how you survived before it came along, like a microwave oven, or a smartphone. If they add the photopass to the bands, then life will be pretty slick on a WDW vacation.

2. The bands are pretty comfortable. I cannot wear a watch, a WWJD/LIVESTRONG/Breast Cancer-type bracelet, or even my wedding band when I am on a summer vacation in WDW because of all the sweating I do. I start to break out. After a week-long trip, I had no trouble with my Magicband. There was a slight problem with the Mickey area of the band being curved and raised a little strangely for my wrist. Like on a watch face, it is the only part of the band that is not flexible, but unlike most watches, there is no hinge on the band. The band is all one piece, so if it doesn’t fit the curve of your wrist, it won’t fit your wrist EXACTLY. This, however, was a minor problem that did not effect my being able to use the band. If I ever had a problem with the band not making good contact with the scanner, I either picked up the scanner (they are not bolted down at the POS registers) or (rarely) removed the band and held it directly to the scanner (sometimes for room entry or to scan at the gate of the resort when we were pulling up in a car).

3. None of the details about what is happening with these test runs is set in stone. For example, everyone we spoke to suggested that getting rid of the one park option for fastpass+ is possible, and probably going to be coming. Of course, they always used the “nothing is set in stone” caveat. Several of these people mentioned that it was the number one question/request/concern of guests. The implication was also that the number of FastPass+ experiences could/would change if guests were showing dissatisfaction with them, and if the demand could handle it. These tests are just preliminary tests of the system and how it links with the passes, the room keys, and the credit charges. When we entered the lobby of our resort for check-in, there were so many “suits” standing around watching the check in process (maybe 10-20) it was kind of intimidating. These were area managers for the other resrorts that are going to be conducting tests soon. There were also tech people around specifically there for any MyMagic+ problems and questions. (they have the green circle-with-a-Mickey logo on their shirts). Everything that is happening now should be considered a starting point or a “best guess” of how things will run once the system is running for everyone.

4. There were some quirks. Most notable was that the system as we tested FORCED you to choose 3 fastpasses. There was a day where we wanted to just do two things in the afternoon, but the system added a fastpass to our day. There was no way for me to erase or get rid of it. This did not really make any difference to us, nor did the mymagic+ people care that we were not going to use it (not for NOW, they said). I hope (and assume) that they will change this once things are up and running for everyone. Also, changing a time on a FastPass is easy, but sort of cumbersome. There were times when I would have wanted a “swap times” option for some of our passes. In order to swap times with Space Mountain and Big Thunder, for example, you have to change your Big Thunder time to a time that is not taken by any other of your FastPasses (the system, understandably, will not let you overlap times). Then you need to change your SM time to the former BTMR time. Then, you need to change the BTMR time to the original SM time. If there is an easier way to swap times, I am not aware of how to do it.

5. Other thoughts: This is certainly a way of making FastPasses available first to those who are staying on Disney Property for their Vacation. I have also noticed, that as an Annual Passholder, I am able to STILL assign myself FastPasses for any day in the near future, and that some experiences have been added to the list of choices that were not included during our stay. Assuming this is not just a glitch in the system, this should calm the minds of those who have purchased an AP or who might be considering not purchasing one because of this. As long as you link your AP to the MyMagic+ system, you should be able to take advantage of the FastPass+ too.

6. Other thoughts 2: We were told that there are no plans on phasing out the regular FastPasses in the foreseeable future. This is good for those who wish to race to the rides the old-fashioned way. The MagicBands are currently an “opt-in” option. However, the FastPass+ system will definitely put a damper on the number of regular fastpasses available to the general public (look for Soarin’ to fill up by 11am). It’s Disney’s own special way of sticking it to the one or two day park guest for sure.

7. Other thoughts 3: The one thing I see as being an obstacle to the “all bands, no cards” goal is at the security gates of the resorts. To deter the MK parking issue at the contemporary, the guards were asking for room keys at the gate of the resort even though we had bands. This is understandable, but it was a problem for us because we got in the habit of not having a room key readily available. It wasn’t a big deal because we knew (and were told) we might need them for back-up, but when things get up and running, it might be an issue with guests who begin to feel that they don’t need a printed card and don’t have them on them. My guess is that the guards will be asking for a driver’s license and have some sort of device for scanning bands to verify name and the resort check-in status of the guest(s).

8. Other thoughts 4: This new system will let Disney know who shows up for their FP’s and who does not. I could envision Disney giving those who actually show up for their experiences a reward (like an extra fastpass or two) and (maybe) “scolding” those who do not. No more “let’s get a Fastpass just in case. . . “ P.S. For the fastpass we did skip, the system sent us a “sorry you missed it” email and said we could show up for any other attraction in the park that day and go through the fastpass+ return. Not sure how that will work when there are attractions/experiences that are full for that day.

9. That about does it for now. I’ll check online periodically for questions/responses
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
Exactly! I haven't read anything that prevents you from doing it, and if there are no repercussions, why not?

I seem to recall a rumor that AP holders will be limited to 20 or 25 FP+ reservations in a calendar quarter (3 months). But I've never seen that confirmed.
 

luv

Well-Known Member
Lots of AP holders live out of state and will use them just like any other tourist.

Locals, though...some visits to the park are planned, but most aren't. We can't call them up a month before we're going to Epcot to schedule a Test Track ride because we don't always know a month (or a week, or a day) before we go that we'll be going. We just go, like you sometimes just decide to go to the movies and go.

I wonder if we will ever have FPs available. I doubt it!

I tend to think this will end up tied into hotels stays, though. If I were betting, I'd bet on that.
 
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