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Mousetrapped 2010
- Thread starter bobtabin
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sweetpee_1993
Well-Known Member
As much as I dislike unions they are unfortunately a necessary evil. The only reason all of the atrocities you described have largely gone the way of the dodo is because of unions. If unions were to go away tomorrow, especially in the current economic climate, it would take less than a year before large corporations would return to the days of old where people were nothing more than the extension of a machine.
sweetpee_1993
Well-Known Member
I dunno, Yoda. Maybe the reporting of labor/safety violations would be a little slower in isolated situations but I still think that they would surface and the violations corrected or punished. Unions certainly played an important role back in the day. No arguing that. I'm not convinced they are still necessary today. There's plenty of non-union workplaces out there that function without or with very minimal ongoing labor/safety issues. The legal system does a lot to keep companies in check. Ya know? I've seen more problems created by union intervention than I've ever seen solutions brought about by them.
jakeman
Well-Known Member
We are in a "who's watching the watchers" type scenario now.
Unions, while they can be considered a necessity, also need to be brought back to having a realistic expectation of what their constituents should be compensated with.
Of course, Disney's unions aren't as bad as some. I don't think I've ever heard of them approaching the level of the auto unions, where people are paid a full days wages to sit in a room.
I'm not familiar with the specifics of this topic and won't pretend to be. I'm not getting into it either because I'm not that interested & will probably end up in a bad mood anyway. I'm no fan of unions in general because I feel that with all the labor laws and flying lawsuits of the day unions have pretty much outlived their need. I did, however, want to comment on this piece of this post that for some reason caught my eye.
It's not just what Disney expects of their employees. How many of you call 911 and expect to get the precise help you need in a matter of moments or minutes? How many of you have called 911 and you received the help you needed in a timely manner? The people you talk to go through extensive training, work crazy schedules including nights/weekends/holidays/long shifts/etc., deal with situations most folks couldn't begin to fathom, make decisions that quite literally play a part in whether people live or die, do not have the option of "going on strike" because that's illegal, and they generally do it for very little pay. The stress is beyond explanation (average burnout is 2.5 years) and I don't think anyone could truly understand it unless they've done that job or something similar. I worked in a 911/sheriff's office dispatch center from December of 2001 to November of 2005. When I started as a trainee I made an hourly rate based on an annual salary that equalled maybe $7.00/hour. By the time I left I was a training officer, one of the senior shift supervisors in my rank (Corporal), and had earned multiple certifications one of which was CommCenter Supervisor which meant I could -essentially- run an entire communications center. Wanna know what that paid? A little over $13/hour. I held lives in my hands every moment I was on duty and made $13/hour. A year after I left that line of work I was a project assistant at an engineering firm not far from where I was previously working. I didn't work shifts, weekends, holidays, etc. It felt like gravy. LOL! Wanna know how much that job paid? $18/hour and all the benefits (retirement, health insurance, etc.) were leaps & bounds better than what I had previously. Believe me, it was a hard pill to swallow at the time and it sickens me when I think about it now.
The point is that there are many, many jobs that people do every day that aren't for money or glory. You have to love what you do and want to do it. Military, teachers, emergency services, etc. These people have to find their own personal purpose and joy in these things so they can move forward. For me, the discipline of what I did was a comfort, thriving on my strong sense of duty made me feel like a duck in water, being a caretaker of sorts was what I've always done for everyone around me, and being the leader that inspired my team mates on my shift was my passion. I loved what I did in communications right up until I was seperated from my little boys for 21 days because they had to evacuate for Hurricane Katrina while I stayed behind to work because I was in an essential position. That remains the single-most difficult thing I've ever had to do because it conflicted with my deepest mothering instincts. When the money became not adequate compensation for the job that I did I moved on.
I liken working for the Disney parks to this because the best CMs are the ones who want to be there, who "get it". I hope that makes sense.
I understand your position and you make a very valid point when comparing 2 different jobs with different responsibilities and stress levels. The problem I have with Disney is that a photopass photographer is paid more than someone driving a 600 passenger Ferryboat, someone who is responsible for literally thousands of guest's safety each day. And I'm not just talking about not crashing a boat, I'm talking about protecting the guests from themselves(ever notice the ridiculous amount of AC lines on the ferry boats and docks?). We have a large responsibility, larger than other areas of the same division of the company(the theme parks) yet are paid less.
I am not personally complaining about my pay. I have a comfy work at home IT job and work at Disney for the free admission and because I try to be one of the CMs who makes people's visit better than a six flags or US visit.
Mr Wizard
Active Member
As much as I dislike unions they are unfortunately a necessary evil. The only reason all of the atrocities you described have largely gone the way of the dodo is because of unions. If unions were to go away tomorrow, especially in the current economic climate, it would take less than a year before large corporations would return to the days of old where people were nothing more than the extension of a machine.
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You have got to be kidding me. The bad conditions may have been thwarted by the unions but Big Brother and the mass of agencies they have would never let that happen again. They are called laws. I run my own buisness, I know first hand. Could I hire a 10 year old to work around dangerous conditions in a forced 60 hr work week for $5.00hr? No. I have to pay a minimum. Pay overtime for more than 40hrs worked in one week. Make sure all materials installed are UL listed for safety. Provide OSHA and MOSHA information to employees for any chemical or substance that may be considered dangerous in any way. And the list goes on and on. Go out and start your own company and hire some employees. After a while you will find out about all the laws protecting the American worker that you had never encountered before.
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You have got to be kidding me. The bad conditions may have been thwarted by the unions but Big Brother and the mass of agencies they have would never let that happen again. They are called laws. I run my own buisness, I know first hand. Could I hire a 10 year old to work around dangerous conditions in a forced 60 hr work week for $5.00hr? No. I have to pay a minimum. Pay overtime for more than 40hrs worked in one week. Make sure all materials installed are UL listed for safety. Provide OSHA and MOSHA information to employees for any chemical or substance that may be considered dangerous in any way. And the list goes on and on. Go out and start your own company and hire some employees. After a while you will find out about all the laws protecting the American worker that you had never encountered before.
You are correct. There are plenty of places that operate without unions the problem is there seem to be just as many if not more that working conditions would deteriorate rapidly if a union was not present. The company my wife works for is a great example. The company is constantly trying to cut pay, benefits, etc in spite of near record profits. If it were not for the union they would pretty much be free to do whatever they want. However like you said I have seen them create as many problems as they fix when they do things like get people rehired that were legitimately fired.
Very true. The unions have become just like large corporations themselves and the simple fact is you can not trust any corporation to do the right thing when all they care about is the bottom line. In many companies employees are viewed as just a necessary evil.
Do you have 60,000 employees? I am going to assume no. When companies get that large there are many liberties that they can take. Sure there are plenty of laws out there to protect workers but for every law there is typically a loop hole to get around it.
Here is the situation that has been going on at the company my wife works for. The workforce is made up of union and non union workers. As you might expect the company would like to completely rid itself of the union. For about a year they decided to try and entice people away from the union by offering a tiered incentive pay program if they quit left the union and were rehired. It broke down to your base pay would be 70% of your current salary and if you made your numbers you would get the additional 30% back plus a bonus depending on how well you did. A few people took the bait and started making serious money. Once word got around more and more people defected. After the defection rate got to about zero the company started raising the numbers you needed required to get your 30% back. Over the course of the last year they raised these numbers so high that less than 5% of the people that defected were making their 30% back.
This was one of the most underhanded things I have ever seen a company do and it was all perfectly legal.
Future Guy
Active Member
I'm sure I don't have enough facts to form an informed opinion on this, so I'm not going to stick up for either side. On one hand, it's a well-known fact that wages are low in the retail, custodial, and restaurant fields. And in Florida, most workers in those fields don't have a union to negotiate for them. I'm sure there are Orlando-area employees of Wal-Mart, Publix, Target, Best Buy, etc. who work similar hours for similar pay and are also in desperate financial straits.
On the other hand, we spend a lot of time on these boards complaining that Disney is unwilling to spend money on stuff that we want, like fixing the Yeti, so it seems a little hypocritical to attack Disney employees who are complaining that Disney is unwilling to spend money on stuff that they want, like higher wages and more benefits.
On the other hand, we spend a lot of time on these boards complaining that Disney is unwilling to spend money on stuff that we want, like fixing the Yeti, so it seems a little hypocritical to attack Disney employees who are complaining that Disney is unwilling to spend money on stuff that they want, like higher wages and more benefits.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
I'm not surprised. I always figured the kids driving the monorails were paid the same as those driving a raft to Tom Sawyer island or the Liberty Belle or an Omnibus down Main Street. About 10 bucks an hour, on average.
I can understand that the monorail is a unique vehicle, but it is on a track. You go forward and you stop, and after a few weeks you can probably land the thing in each station quite easily. You learn some radio codes and the intricacies of the system, you learn your spiels, and you pander to the endless stream of tourist families who asked to sit up front with their precious child who is super-special and needs to be treated as a super-special angel.
It's part of the job. You could come up with all sorts of scenarios where a monorail pilot would be faced with dangerous situations. But the kid working the deep frier at Tomorrowland Terrace is also working with burning oil and has the food safety of hundreds of guests in his hands every shift as well.
I've been to Tokyo Disneyland several times. I've seen how those Tokyo Cast Members treat their guests and how super profesionally they take their jobs. It's a dramatic difference from how the average WDW or Disneyland CM acts and behaves to their "guests". I'm not impressed with this latest union stunt to brand the Florida CM's as victims of an evil corporate empire.
TP2000
Well-Known Member
A hotel concierge is a tipped position. Any good concierge in any decent hotel in America is making a lot of money in tips, often a few hundred dollars per day in a swanky hotel.
Sure there are folks staying in a concierge room who request tasks be completed by the concierge who then never leave a gratuity at the desk for that person, but those folks are idiots who don't know how to behave and are taken in stride as such. But then you get a smart, sophisticated person who introduces himself to the concierge and asks for help with a couple dinner reservations, a last minute spa appointment, and a town car back to the airport, and then leaves a 50 dollar tip for the concierge who worked miracles.
A hotel concierge in a 3 or 4 star hotel receives tips. Lots of tips each day if they are good at it.
RobGraves
New Member
except Disney rules concierge's cannot accept tips, and if a tip is forced on them they have to give it to a "tip jar" where it is shared amongst all the CMs usually in the form of a pizza party. To accept a tip and not turn it in is a fireable offense.
ChrisFL
Premium Member
But Japanese people in general have better service standards than their American counterparts, so that must be taken into account as well.
ChrisFL
Premium Member
Let's run some numbers...let's say 50 cents per hour for all 27,000 employees.
27,000 x .50 = $13,500 per hour
40 hours per week = $540,000 per week
52 weeks per year = $28,080,000 a year
I have a feeling that the shareholders wouldn't like that very much. No it isn't "fair" in the best sense, but Disney is a publicly held company also.
WDW's biggest asset, and in some ways, it's biggest problem is it's size. Whenever there's talk of a raise, they have so many employees, it becomes a huge number.
On the other hand, while we're coming up with theoretical numbers...if the cost to guests to each park was increased only $1.00 per day, it would cover the cost of the raise.
27,000 x .50 = $13,500 per hour
40 hours per week = $540,000 per week
52 weeks per year = $28,080,000 a year
I have a feeling that the shareholders wouldn't like that very much. No it isn't "fair" in the best sense, but Disney is a publicly held company also.
WDW's biggest asset, and in some ways, it's biggest problem is it's size. Whenever there's talk of a raise, they have so many employees, it becomes a huge number.
On the other hand, while we're coming up with theoretical numbers...if the cost to guests to each park was increased only $1.00 per day, it would cover the cost of the raise.
Disney's profit for the trailing 12 months was $3.96 billion. An extra $28 million a year would be well under 1%, and even less when you account for their tax savings. So an extra 50 cents an hour would not be material to their financials.
raven
Well-Known Member
As a custodial CM I can comment on this easily.
First off, you just offended me in generalizing custodial CMs as just "sweeping and cleaning." Even if that were the case, how else do you think the parks stay clean? Certainly Tinkerbell isn't tossing around any pixie dust when no one is looking. Custodial workers, especially night custodial, are subjected to hazardous chemicals & body fluids & diseases (including used needles and blood), work in risky environments that can pose huge safety issues, and often work alone in remote places with no contact in case of an emergency. Some are given impossible tasks to complete within their shift yet they are expected to do it anyway, without taking shortcuts, and not go overtime.
Secondly, the man in the video never asked for $20/hour. He simply ment that after 20 years you would think there would be more of a reward.
I completely agree but it will never happen. If this were the case a lot of CMs wouldn't be complaining.
Exactly. I just did assessments of each of our management for the Learning & Developement Department. Each year they have to go through the OGs and get tested on everything that is expected of the CMs in their department. Out of 10 managers I did assessments on in my department, only 4 knew all of the information. The last manager I tested, just yesterday morning, I had to fail because he basically didn't know anything.
Not all, but some departments just don't get the formula for success: Happy CMs make good CMs. Appreciation is non-exsitant in my department.
Last year I was up in the monorail station at Epcot when a guest got off the train and needed a wheelchair. She was alone and needed help. There were only 2 monorail CMs at the station at that time of the night, neither of them could leave their post. So I walked down to Guest Service, returned with a wheelchair and walked the woman all the way out to her car. Why? It was the right thing to do and I was waiting on my coworkers to arrive anyway. After returning from the handicapt parking area one of my managers pulled me aside. I thought I would get a little appreciation. Instead I was told that "That's not your area" and "you don't need to be doing that."
As disgruntled as some of these CMs are about all of this, you would never know it when you run into them in the parks. They still uphold the Disney Magic and will continue to because it's in their hearts. This is the reason why they deserve a raise.
Spoken like a true TDO executive. That's exactly what their philosophy is and why they can pay crap in the first place.
inluvwithbeast
New Member
Too bad they don't treat CM's like Google treats its people, eh? Sushi in the breakroom? Do your dry cleaning for you?
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/googleplex3.htm
With that in mind, here's a short list of the perks Google employees get when they sign on at the Googleplex:
- If an employee's bangs are getting in the way during a furious coding session, he or she can schedule an on-site haircut free of charge.
- To work off all those calories, employees can head over to a gym filled with equipment. For the aquatically-inclined, Google also provides swim-in-place swimming pools. These pools are narrow and not very long. Electric water pumps provide a strong current that flows in one direction. Employees swim against the current, staying in place within these small pools. Lifeguards are on duty to keep employees safe.
- Employees can play against each other in a quick game of ping pong, billiards or foosball -- you can find game tables in several of the buildings on campus. There are also video games for employees who prefer to let their thumbs do all the work.
Justin Sullivan/Getty Images
Google employees can take a break and play a quick game of pool or foosball.
- If an employee spills some of that fancy juice on his or her clothes, all is not lost. Google has laundry facilities available to employees on site. The company even offers dry cleaning services. It's not unusual for Google employees to bring clothes in over the weekend to do laundry at the Googleplex.
- Google's healthcare plan includes on-site medical staff. If an employee suffers an injury or feels ill while at work, he or she can make an appointment with a doctor at the Googleplex.
- Even with all the benefits and perks at the Googleplex, work can become stressful. Fortunately for Google employees, they can take advantage of a subsidized massage program. For a small fee, the employee can receive a massage from a licensed therapist in a private room. In fact, Google's massage rooms and bathrooms are some of the only areas in the Googleplex that have opaque walls.
- Another famous benefit of working at Google is the 20 percent time program. Google allows its employees to use up to 20 percent of their work week at Google to pursue special projects. That means for every standard work week, employees can take a full day to work on a project unrelated to their normal workload. Google claims that many of their products in Google Labs started out as pet projects in the 20 percent time program.
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/googleplex3.htm
parkgoer
Member
sweetpee_1993
Well-Known Member
I can't stand management like this. Seriously. It's terrible to work with no appreciation, no acknowledgement, and constant correction. Unfortunately, these goobers are sprinkled in all sorts of companies not just Disney. When I became a supervisor I was so clueless. Like the rest of that job there was no real instruction or guidance so it was trial by fire. I stumbled some in the beginning but then a mentor appeared and helped me put direction to what I was trying to identify as my way of doing things. My philosopy is this: Anyone can be a supervisor who is nothing more than a glorified babysitter sitting around all day keeping a watchful eye on the kiddies and telling them what to or not to do. That's not me. I wanted to be a leader, a person who inspired her team mates to want to achieve excellence. By doing this it creates a positive environment that can do nothing less than produce success in each team member and for the team as a cohesive unit. There are so many fundamental supervisory practices that aren't at all rocket-science that facilitate this sort of positive team attitude. The problem is you get people landing in these management positions who have no clue what the difference between a supervisor and a leader is. Without differentiating between the two these people generally land in the mega-jerk category and their team falls into a low-morale, defeated place that makes everyone miserable and produces failure at every turn.
Kudos to you for doing the right thing while on the clock or otherwise. I hope the goober who told you that about helping that lady hasn't influence you to do differently should a similar situation present itself. And I'm sorry you're stuck in a rut-team. I always hate to hear that sort of stuff.
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