Mousetrapped 2010

[zulemara]

Personally, I'd like to see the numbers for operators of monorails... someone before me compared the salary of a McDonald's employee to that of a Monorail Operator and I can't see that comparison (my point is that I find it highly unlikely that someone operating a piece of machinery that expensive and with the risk of passengers would be paid sub 10 dollars).

Believe it!!! Not only do CPs get paid 7.50 in transportation, even part time/seasonal get paid sub 10 dollars. 8.25 is the going rate I believe. Photopass photographers get paid more than monorail pilots and Watercraft "drivers"(yes that is our official name)

 

[jakeman]

Well said. If you want quality people to work for you and stay, then you need to pay them a quality living wage. Statements like, "He/She is 'only' a ____, what are they expecting?" always seems to be made in ignorance. The implication behind those statements always seems to be that "those" jobs aren't "real" jobs - they aren't important enough to warrant a decent living wage. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the 17-year veteran custodial CM is still there because, just maybe, he *enjoys* his job and enjoys working at Disney but wished he would be paid better? Just because you wouldn't do his job doesn't mean 100% of everyone else feels the same. Every job at Disney is just as important as every other job, and if you think otherwise you can't see the forest for the trees. And leaving it up to "the market" is the attitude that has caused these economic problems. Look at how much inflation has gone up compared to how much wages have gone up; it's not even close. Families used to need only one breadwinner, be able to save enough to pay for their children to go to college if they chose to, and have their pension ready for them when they retired. Now families have two breadwinners that don't seem to make enough, they have to rely on outrageous loans for their children's college, and pensions are getting smaller and smaller. People now have to work twice as hard for half as much, and I find the situation unacceptable.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Jobs should be paid in regard to their complexity and risk not because of the affection the employee has for the position.

As some one who has worked as Disney and now works in a completely different industry it has nothing to do with not wanting to do a Disney employee's job. You are forcing classism into a conversation that isn't about that.

Every job at Disney is not as important as every other job. They are interconnect sure, but there is an hierarchy and there should be.

What is a decent living wage? Who is going to decide that? Is it above the poverty line? Does it need to be able to afford a house? How many square feet? Do you get a car? How much car? How many kids are you allowed? How much should that wage protect you from your own financial idiocy?

 

[devoy1701]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Jobs should be paid in regard to their complexity and risk not because of the affection the employee has for the position.

As some one who has worked as Disney and now works in a completely different industry it has nothing to do with not wanting to do a Disney employee's job. You are forcing classism into a conversation that isn't about that.

Every job at Disney is not as important as every other job. They are interconnect sure, but there is an hierarchy and there should be.

What is a decent living wage? Who is going to decide that? Is it above the poverty line? Does it need to be able to afford a house? How many square feet? Do you get a car? How much car? How many kids are you allowed? How much should that wage protect you from your own financial idiocy?

agreed

Well said. If you want quality people to work for you and stay, then you need to pay them a quality living wage. Statements like, "He/She is 'only' a ____, what are they expecting?" always seems to be made in ignorance. The implication behind those statements always seems to be that "those" jobs aren't "real" jobs - they aren't important enough to warrant a decent living wage. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the 17-year veteran custodial CM is still there because, just maybe, he *enjoys* his job and enjoys working at Disney but wished he would be paid better? Just because you wouldn't do his job doesn't mean 100% of everyone else feels the same. Every job at Disney is just as important as every other job, and if you think otherwise you can't see the forest for the trees. And leaving it up to "the market" is the attitude that has caused these economic problems. Look at how much inflation has gone up compared to how much wages have gone up; it's not even close. Families used to need only one breadwinner, be able to save enough to pay for their children to go to college if they chose to, and have their pension ready for them when they retired. Now families have two breadwinners that don't seem to make enough, they have to rely on outrageous loans for their children's college, and pensions are getting smaller and smaller. People now have to work twice as hard for half as much, and I find the situation unacceptable.

we are not in our "economic problems" because of free market. We are here because of bad business practices and judgement on the sides of the banks based on greed. Mortgage-backed security and derivities trading, sub-prime loans to people who should never have been approved to be in houses....but not because we let free market go wherever it pleases. If anything we are STILL in the problem we are in today because we've spend to much time and money trying to control the free market instead of letting it work itself out. Too big to fail and not letting the market correct itself is the problem...not companies not paying a "living wage" that is established by the gov't that again attempts to control the economy.

It's fine and dandy that the janitor enjoys being a janitor...but that doesnt mean he should get paid as if he's in junior managment of a fortune 500 company or even that of a store manager.

How much longer till this thread is locked anyway?

 

[ddbowdoin]

agreed



we are not in our "economic problems" because of free market. We are here because of bad business practices and judgement on the sides of the banks based on greed. Mortgage-backed security and derivities trading, sub-prime loans to people who should never have been approved to be in houses....but not because we let free market go wherever it pleases. If anything we are STILL in the problem we are in today because we've spend to much time and money trying to control the free market instead of letting it work itself out. Too big to fail and not letting the market correct itself is the problem...not companies not paying a "living wage" that is established by the gov't that again attempts to control the economy.

It's fine and dandy that the janitor enjoys being a janitor...but that doesnt mean he should get paid as if he's in junior managment of a fortune 500 company or even that of a store manager.

How much longer till this thread is locked anyway?

I work in the industry... no one was complaining 10 years ago when the people were seeing nice returns on the same instruments. With all investments, there are inherent risks... correct?

 

[Pioneer Hall]

Well said. If you want quality people to work for you and stay, then you need to pay them a quality living wage. Statements like, "He/She is 'only' a ____, what are they expecting?" always seems to be made in ignorance. The implication behind those statements always seems to be that "those" jobs aren't "real" jobs - they aren't important enough to warrant a decent living wage. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the 17-year veteran custodial CM is still there because, just maybe, he *enjoys* his job and enjoys working at Disney but wished he would be paid better? Just because you wouldn't do his job doesn't mean 100% of everyone else feels the same. Every job at Disney is just as important as every other job, and if you think otherwise you can't see the forest for the trees. And leaving it up to "the market" is the attitude that has caused these economic problems. Look at how much inflation has gone up compared to how much wages have gone up; it's not even close. Families used to need only one breadwinner, be able to save enough to pay for their children to go to college if they chose to, and have their pension ready for them when they retired. Now families have two breadwinners that don't seem to make enough, they have to rely on outrageous loans for their children's college, and pensions are getting smaller and smaller. People now have to work twice as hard for half as much, and I find the situation unacceptable.

I also have to disagree here. If Disney paid me my investment bank wages to sweep their floors, you would be able to see the smoke trail behind me I would be running their so fast. My dream for years has been to work for Disney, but I also know that I can't put myself in a position where I would have to compromise my living in order to do that. Jobs that require extensive education, training, and involve risk do and should be paid more than someone who rings up your food order or cleans a bathroom. There is a reason that colleges cost thousands upon thousands of dollars for someone to attend...because that degree should someday pay for itself. Enjoying your job is great, and everyone should strive to do that. However, there is no way you can say that a custodian (no matter how much he might love his job) deserves to be paid as much as a management level employee is.

 

[Magenta Panther]

I've read a lot of similar comments on various sites and no offense, but you don't have a clue. Outsiders look at this as a cut and dried $13/hr for a custodian with 17 years is good enough. I've been going to WDW since year 1, and I was a CM for 10 years having left last year.

Can the CMs who you think make enough, go other places? You bet. 17 yrs at Disney on a resume no matter what the position will get you another job. 10 yrs on my resume got me a job making 3 times what Disney paid. Can Disney replace the disgruntled workers? Absolutely! What do you have then? You have an ok amusement park. That's it. There's really nothing special about the rides. What's the jungle cruise without the cm doing the commentating? You want rides? Stay home and go to six flags or go to universal or cedar point. It's a whole lot cheaper with better rides.

It's the cast members who make the Disney magic.
What are you going to do...bring in people from the street to take over? Who's going to train them? The managers? I got news for you. Most of the managers at disney are young (you won't find too many middle aged married white guys), fresh out of college, people who accepted a lower paying management job with the most recognizable company in the world. Most have few people skills, and the only thing that they know about disney is from the few class hours that disney provided. They are paper shufflers who give stuff away to solve problems. How do they learn how to deal with people and where do they learn about how disney was and how it should be? The CMs who have been doing it for years. Did you realize that the population of WDW at any given time is a quarter of a million people? During the busy seasons, there are approximately 62,000 cms. Do you really want the cms who know disney to go away? When is the last time you saw a family celebrate because they were going to universal? Disney CMs do their jobs (which is take care of their guests) dealing with more people on a day to day basis than anyone else in the world.
Pay them for what they know, as well as, what they do!

I'm going to chime in here, with the caveat that I have never worked at a Disney park. But here's how I feel about it. CMs can absolutely add to or detract from a Disney park visit. My first visit to WDW was as a kid, and one of the things I remember best from the visit was how happy and cheerful the employees at the park seemed to be. I got to sit up front in the Monorail, and the driver told me how great it was to work at Disney. Everyone was smiling and WDW really did seem like "the happiest place on Earth". It wasn't just the rides and appearance of the park, but the people who were in it, that left me with such happy memories.

And the way any employer acquires and keeps happy employees is with decent pay and benefits. I'll give you another example: ever been to a QuikTrip? A Quiktrip is a gas station/convenience store chain, but the difference between it and other such chains is enormous. Every Quiktrip I've ever been to has been clean, well-stocked, inviting, and the employees have been professional and helpful. These are not qualities you find in every gas station/convenience store. But then the Quiktrip company pays its employees pretty decently, and gives bonuses and benefits as well. And that is what, I think, has made all the difference at Quiktrip.

Now, my more recent trips to WDW have been enjoyable, but I have noticed a shift in attitude in its employees. I don't get the "I'm happy to be here" vibe from them very often. If low pay is responsible, then in my opinion, WDW ought to do something about it. I've worked at places where turnover in employees was incredible, and the end product suffered terribly. A good, experienced employee should be worth his/her weight in gold to employers, especially an employer like Disneyland and WDW, where employee/customer relations are so vital to the overall theme park experience. Keeping on good, reliable, enthusiastic employees should be job one with the Disney Parks division. If that would entail a hike in attendance fees, well, as long as it wasn't too onerous, I could live with that, if it helped improve the ambience, quality and upkeep at the parks. I don't want to start equating visiting WDW with visiting Universal or Six Flags or whatever. WDW used to be more than just a park, it was a state of mind. It really was a magical place. I'd be willing to pay a bit more to keep it that way.

 

[ddbowdoin]

For your information, and not because I want to get in the middle of this lol, I do have the info you requested. A Monorail host/hostess starts off making 7.90/hr and tops out at 14.17/hr. and yes, all monorail cast drive the monorails, not just the ones that have been there for years and years. Just like all bus drivers drive busses (oh and they start at 10.55). That club level concierge that does anything and everything from your room status, dining reservations, tickets, hunting down lost items and whatever else you ask, yep, they start at 9.25 and top out at 13.44. Oh and trainers? They are only a buck more an hour than the people they train. And that lifeguard at your resort... 8.20. ** these figures are all taken directly from Addendum A in the STCU contract valid April 29th, 2007 to October 2nd, 2010 and all rates are the 2010 rates after all the raises effective in the contract**
oh and parkgoer, thanks for encouraging people to be nice to us poor cms lol:wave:

I stand corrected, surprised someone responsible for a ___ million dollar system is paid that much. Is there not much involved in operating the monorail then?

 

[greebomusic]

Shannon, you're my new WDWMagic hero! I'm not a CM but having been forced into 3 different unions over the years, I share your veiwpoint to a "T"! If I ever run in to you at the parks.. Dolewhip on me!

 

[devoy1701]

I work in the industry... no one was complaining 10 years ago when the people were seeing nice returns on the same instruments. With all investments, there are inherent risks... correct?

Very correct. Being a finance major I of course will not argue that with you. No one could forsee the bubble popping like it did, but we all knew the bubble was going to pop. No way the market could withstand 30+% growth YoY. But even though they were seeing returns, the individual mortgages still looked bad on paper, and they still look bad today. I cannot believe they still allow people to buy homes with only 3.5% down!

 

[ddbowdoin]

Very correct. Being a finance major I of course will not argue that with you. No one could forsee the bubble popping like it did, but we all knew the bubble was going to pop. No way the market could withstand 30+% growth YoY. But even though they were seeing returns, the individual mortgages still looked bad on paper, and they still look bad today. I cannot believe they still allow people to buy homes with only 3.5% down!

yes, 3.5% down without a solid projected growth of wealth is a mixture for bad news.

 

[devoy1701]

yes, 3.5% down without a solid projected growth of wealth is a mixture for bad news.

what projected growth at this point though? housing prices are still not holding steady, and the market is once again saturated with new construction homes again as well resales and foreclosures thanks to the tax credit from earlier this year.

You can combine just about any figures and project a solid growth...see any failed business venture in history. Of course a bank is going to make "solid projected growth" when they opened mortgages up to people who only had 3.5% or 0% to put down on a house because now your potential customer base has increased tenfold...as long as these people pay their mortgages and the housing market continues to inflate the value of these properties. But now these banks are sitting on millions of dollars of assets because people lost their jobs and can't afford to pay their mortgage (or better yet, people just decided to stop paying their mortgage because no one else is paying it either). Allowing people to continue to buy a home at 3.5% down or use an ARM is just going to make this thing cyclical....

I'm confused though whether you are talking from strictly a bank's point of view or that of the home buyer...

 

[Epcotbob]

The "Free Market" system should never be looked down upon.

Without the free market, there would be no Disneyland, Disneyworld, or the myriad of other luxuries we Americans enjoy.

Walt Disney himself always praised American free enterprise as the engine of American prosperity. The whole Florida project was set up to, as Walt put it, "...always be a showcase to the world for the ingenuity and imagination of American free enterprise"

Socialism / Communism is always disaster, proved again and again...it always ends up in shared misery for all (except for those in power).

 

[devoy1701]

The "Free Market" system should never be looked down upon.

Without the free market, there would be no Disneyland, Disneyworld, or the myriad of other luxuries we Americans enjoy.

Walt Disney himself always praised American free enterprise as the engine of American prosperity. The whole Florida project was set up to, as Walt put it, "...always be a showcase to the world for the ingenuity and imagination of American free enterprise"

Socialism / Communism is always disaster, proved again and again...it always ends up in shared misery for all (except for those in power).

And so concludes this thread. :wave:

 

[ddbowdoin]

and so concludes this thread. :d :wave:

lol well said! Haha

 

[sweetpee_1993]

Ok guys, a capped salary is not the only thing the union is going after. You guys would be great for the Disney legal team. You're making it hard not to agree with you! I agree somewhat about the salary cap, and at a certain point, you're not gonna make $20/hr being a custodian. But what about the new people that start at less than $8/hr and takes them 3-4years just to make $9/$10 hr? How is it that the guy that took your mcdonalds order is getting paid more than the monorail pilot with 300+ guests on his train? or the people loading your family on RnR? Disney expects A LOT from their CM's and don't pay accordingly. They expect long hours, low pay, high responsibility. It is impossible to make a living working any front line job at disney. Next time you go through the turnstyles, buy something in a gift shop, sit down and eat, check in at your hotel, get on a monorail/boat/train, get on any attraction or show, just remember those people are all poor.

I'm not familiar with the specifics of this topic and won't pretend to be. I'm not getting into it either because I'm not that interested & will probably end up in a bad mood anyway. I'm no fan of unions in general because I feel that with all the labor laws and flying lawsuits of the day unions have pretty much outlived their need. I did, however, want to comment on this piece of this post that for some reason caught my eye.

It's not just what Disney expects of their employees. How many of you call 911 and expect to get the precise help you need in a matter of moments or minutes? How many of you have called 911 and you received the help you needed in a timely manner? The people you talk to go through extensive training, work crazy schedules including nights/weekends/holidays/long shifts/etc., deal with situations most folks couldn't begin to fathom, make decisions that quite literally play a part in whether people live or die, do not have the option of "going on strike" because that's illegal, and they generally do it for very little pay. The stress is beyond explanation (average burnout is 2.5 years) and I don't think anyone could truly understand it unless they've done that job or something similar. I worked in a 911/sheriff's office dispatch center from December of 2001 to November of 2005. When I started as a trainee I made an hourly rate based on an annual salary that equalled maybe $7.00/hour. By the time I left I was a training officer, one of the senior shift supervisors in my rank (Corporal), and had earned multiple certifications one of which was CommCenter Supervisor which meant I could -essentially- run an entire communications center. Wanna know what that paid? A little over $13/hour. I held lives in my hands every moment I was on duty and made $13/hour. A year after I left that line of work I was a project assistant at an engineering firm not far from where I was previously working. I didn't work shifts, weekends, holidays, etc. It felt like gravy. LOL! Wanna know how much that job paid? $18/hour and all the benefits (retirement, health insurance, etc.) were leaps & bounds better than what I had previously. Believe me, it was a hard pill to swallow at the time and it sickens me when I think about it now.

The point is that there are many, many jobs that people do every day that aren't for money or glory. You have to love what you do and want to do it. Military, teachers, emergency services, etc. These people have to find their own personal purpose and joy in these things so they can move forward. For me, the discipline of what I did was a comfort, thriving on my strong sense of duty made me feel like a duck in water, being a caretaker of sorts was what I've always done for everyone around me, and being the leader that inspired my team mates on my shift was my passion. I loved what I did in communications right up until I was seperated from my little boys for 21 days because they had to evacuate for Hurricane Katrina while I stayed behind to work because I was in an essential position. That remains the single-most difficult thing I've ever had to do because it conflicted with my deepest mothering instincts. When the money became not adequate compensation for the job that I did I moved on.

I liken working for the Disney parks to this because the best CMs are the ones who want to be there, who "get it". I hope that makes sense.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

The "Free Market" system should never be looked down upon.

Without the free market, there would be no Disneyland, Disneyworld, or the myriad of other luxuries we Americans enjoy.

Walt Disney himself always praised American free enterprise as the engine of American prosperity. The whole Florida project was set up to, as Walt put it, "...always be a showcase to the world for the ingenuity and imagination of American free enterprise"

Socialism / Communism is always disaster, proved again and again...it always ends up in shared misery for all (except for those in power).

Amen, Brother! Can I quote this??? I think it'd be a great topic for discussion with the sons (we homeschool... ).

 

[disneyeater]

A few have mentioned that it is the great CMs that make Disney better than other theme parks, and I agree in part that is true. However, that just pushes the point further that raises should be based on performance, not seniority, to reward those really making your visit a magical experience.

 

[Mr Wizard]

I think the union and it's Disney members should ponder a few facts.

First-There isn't a gun to anyones head forcing them to work for this large evil company. If they don't pay enough for you then go somewhere else. If there are no other suitable jobs in central FL then move. The same freedoms in the good old USA that gives Disney the ability to run things as they see fit is given to each and every employee to work where and how they they want.

Second-( And I'm sure this one will ruffle some feathers ) The need for unions and their usefullness in this country died many many years ago. Unions grew and flourshed 80+ years ago when the average worker had some pretty rough working conditions. Dangerous places, long hours, no benefits and no common ground for pay scale were the norm in a lot of places. But not today. All the multitude of gov't. agencies in place today like OSHA and such will take care of the conditions. Minimum wage makes sure no one is "cheated". So the union of today becomes an unnecessary voice that exists only to keep providing jobs to it's organisers and office staff.

 

[Epcotbob]

Amen, Brother! Can I quote this??? I think it'd be a great topic for discussion with the sons (we homeschool... ).

Feel free to quote! Incidently, we also homeschool

 

[sweetpee_1993]

A few have mentioned that it is the great CMs that make Disney better than other theme parks, and I agree in part that is true. However, that just pushes the point further that raises should be based on performance, not seniority, to reward those really making your visit a magical experience.

I agree, to an extent. With a lot of companies longevity is also compensated with additional vacation days. ((I have no clue what Disney's policies on paid vacation for different positions are.)) Each position or job category needs to have it's own compensation scale commensurate to that position. If someone max's out the compensation in their current position and want more then they should take the necessary steps to move into something else with an increased compensation scale.