EPCOT Morocco Pavilion redevelopment

[aladdin2007]

The only thing that is ever going to happen with the pavilion, is if a new third party management comes in to run the dining and shopping like it had before, and which it needs badly now. Until that happens disney will keep the unused spaces shuttered or add outdoor seating with more and more drinking. disney is certainly not going to do anything worth while to it or add anything of substance, not till we have a creative leadership that gives a flying fig, and that's not happening anytime soon, sadly. Whether they have been courting vendors or not I have no idea. Its really too bad the previous company went bankrupt. no matter how one felt about the food, marrakesh was a delight and beautiful spot and the last pavilion left that truly remained authentically themed.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I agree, but it's not that different than putting a fictional land in the Norway pavilion just because they used Scandinavian architecture. If Disney was willing to do one, I don't think they'd be stopped from doing the other.

I get your point, but I see a big difference here in that Frozen could plausibly be said to be inspired by/set in Norway. Visit Norway itself used Frozen to promote tourism when the film came out and Adventures by Disney planned Frozen Adventure trips to Norway. So, I get the reservations about Frozen in the Norway pavilion, but it's not as out-of-left-field as people claim as the film was always associated with Norway by Disney and the Norwegian tourism board. They did also retrofit a Norway reference into that godawful Frozen holiday short/long before Coco.

As has been explained, Sinbad has very little to tie it to Morocco beyond foreigners just blending all countries in the Middle East and Northern Africa into one big exotic other.

 

[networkpro]

I agree with the general thrust of your point, though it’s worth noting that modern-day Iraqis who identify as Arab are predominantly descended from the pre-Islamic people of Iraq (Mesopotamia) rather than from outside invaders.

If there was an Arabic "Golden age" in Bagdad it didn't last too long, as in 1258 the Mongol Empire captured and depopulated it. Local history says that they made a pile of heads from the bodies of the Bagdadians of thousands.... a fierce enough reputation that the Iraqis wouldn't mess with the Mongolians in 2003 (745 years later) who were part of the multinational force in the southern part of Iraq (they were a specialized EOD company).

Modern Iraqis are not a monolithic people, they are very much more tribal affiliated than any other identity group. Translations of the mythological tales that represent Aladin are questionable as many scholarly works have found they were translated into Arabic and then into European languages in the early 18th century.

Just like the Disney company reinterpreted the fables collected by the brother Grimm, they've played fast and loose with many others from different cultural backgrounds as well as the political structures' harsher realities.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Disney updated the tiling around the Moroccan fountain after they lost the renters. Not to mention opening the bar and a few kiosks and renovating the lakeside store. Clearly Disney wants to keep it Moroccan.

 

[UNCgolf]

For that comparison to hold, the story of Sindbad would have to take place in a fictional country inspired by the Maghrib (i.e., the region to which Morocco belongs), just as Arendelle is inspired by Norway. That isn't the case at all, however: Sindbad is from Baghdad, nowhere near the Maghrib. So I don't agree with you that it's not much different. A better comparison would be if they decided to put a Russian-themed ride in the UK pavilion.

Your example would be the exact same thing as Arendelle in Norway, which is not what I said -- I did not say it was exactly the same. It's not that much different in that Arendelle absolutely does not belong in the Norway pavilion just as Sinbad would not belong in Morocco. Both ideas are an affront to the whole concept of the World Showcase and the countries therein.

 

[LittleBuford]

That's incorrect. What you are suggesting would be the exact same thing as Arendelle in Norway, which is not what I said.

It's not that much different in that Arendelle absolutely does not belong in the World Showcase just as Sinbad would not belong in Morocco. Both ideas are an affront to the whole concept of the World Showcase and the countries therein.

I’m no World Showcase purist, as demonstrated by the fact that I’ve never raised an objection to Aladdin and Jasmine’s somewhat fanciful presence at Morocco. I would have no problem in principle with the addition of a ride based on an IP set in a fictional land, so long as that land was inspired by Morocco or, at the very least, the Maghrib. That is why your comparison to Arendelle is off, or at least irrelevant to what I’m saying. My point was never about the suitability or otherwise of a fantasy IP, but about the inappropriateness of using Morocco to host a story that has nothing culturally or geographically to do with it. Arendelle, by contrast, does have a connection to Norway, regardless of where one stands on the question of its appropriateness for World Showcase.

 

[UNCgolf]

I’m no World Showcase purist, as demonstrated by the fact that I’ve never raised an objection to Aladdin and Jasmine’s somewhat fanciful presence at Morocco. I would have no problem in principle with the addition of a ride based on an IP set in a fictional land, so long as that land was inspired by Morocco or, at the very least, the Maghrib. That is why your comparison to Arendelle is off, or at least irrelevant to what I’m saying. My point was never about the suitability or otherwise of a fantasy IP, but about the inappropriateness of using Morocco to host a story that has nothing culturally or geographically to do with it. Arendelle, by contrast, does have a connection to Norway, regardless of where one stands on the question of its appropriateness for World Showcase.

That's my whole issue -- I don't think Arendelle has any legitimate connection to Norway.

Frozen was written by an American (an Italian-American, I think, but I'm not 100% positive). Yes, it is very loosely based on (or perhaps "inspired by") a Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale, but it has almost nothing in common with "The Snow Queen". Frozen essentially has a Norwegian veneer (clothing, architecture, etc.) laid over the story and that's the extent of the connection -- it could be set in other snowy locations without really losing anything.

With that said, I agree that Sinbad in Morocco would be worse in that it both originates from AND is set in an entirely different location (as you mentioned). It doesn't even have that Moroccan veneer. But would you be okay with a new Morocco attraction based on a Disney movie written by an American set in a fictional kingdom that just uses Morocco as an inspiration for the clothing and architecture? This isn't intended to be some kind of gotcha; I'm legitimately curious.

None of this is to suggest I think that Sinbad in Morocco is a good idea, of course. It's just that Disney has already gone ahead with putting in things with no real connection to the country.

 

[LittleBuford]

But would you be okay with a new Morocco attraction based on a Disney movie written by an American set in a fictional kingdom that just uses Morocco as an inspiration for the clothing and architecture?

Yes. That’s what I was trying to say in my last reply to you when I wrote, “I would have no problem in principle with the addition of a ride based on an IP set in a fictional land, so long as that land was inspired by Morocco or, at the very least, the Maghrib.”

My issue isn’t with the addition of (fictional) IPs to World Showcase (I don’t feel strongly about that one way or the other), but with treating Morocco as some blank slate for all things “Arabian”.

 

[UNCgolf]

Yes. That’s what I was trying to say in my last reply to you when I wrote, “I would have no problem in principle with the addition of a ride based on an IP set in a fictional land, so long as that land was inspired by Morocco or, at the very least, the Maghrib.”

My issue has nothing to do with keeping (fictional) IPs out of World Showcase, but with treating Morocco some blank slate for all things “Arabian”.

Sorry, I somehow completely missed that sentence in your comment!

To me those two things are almost equally bad -- they both show a lack of respect for the culture. But I understand you feel differently.

I'm not even totally opposed to fictional IPs; I would just prefer they actually have a connection to the country/culture beyond set dressing. Something like Mary Poppins fits pretty well in that it's inherently English -- if it was set in Paris, e.g., it would require significant changes.

 

[LittleBuford]

Sorry, I somehow completely missed that sentence in your comment!

To me those two things are almost equally bad -- they both show a total lack of respect for the culture. But I understand you feel differently.

I'm not even totally opposed to fictional IPs; I just would prefer they actually have a legitimate connection to the country.

I disagree that such stories automatically show “a total lack of respect for the culture”. I don’t think Frozen, for example, does a disservice to its Scandinavian setting. As someone of Turkish heritage, I would love for Disney to create a story that is to Turkey what Frozen is to Norway.

 

[MisterPenguin]

I disagree that such stories automatically show “a total lack of respect for the culture”. I don’t think Frozen, for example, does a disservice to its Scandinavian setting. As someone of Turkish heritage, I would love for Disney to create a story that is to Turkey what Frozen is to Norway.

How about a ride based on this now-owned by Disney film:

 

[UNCgolf]

I disagree that such stories automatically show “a total lack of respect for the culture”. I don’t think Frozen, for example, does a disservice to its Scandinavian setting. As someone of Turkish heritage, I would love for Disney to create a story that is to Turkey what Frozen is to Norway.

I don't think the story itself shows a lack of respect for the culture -- I have no problem with Frozen as a film.

It's only in the context of putting into the World Showcase where I think it displays a lack of respect, because it becomes about the movie and its characters rather than the culture of the country. While I don't think the use of Norwegian architecture and traditional clothing styles alone is enough to make it fit into the World Showcase, it would be an easier sell if those things were the focus of the Arendelle additions.

But Frozen Ever After is just a ride about seeing the characters from Frozen. Any connection with Norwegian culture is incidental. They could have used the Frozen characters to promote learning about Norwegian culture, and they did not. For example, Frozen Ever After could have been a ride or about Norway with Anna, Elsa, etc. as tour guides instead of what it is. They did at least keep the Norwegian flavor at Akershus -- I'll give them that -- but the Norway pavilion has almost become the Arendelle pavilion.

I think they did do a small thing in the Stave Church Gallery where they connected Frozen to Norwegian culture, but that shouldn't be a tiny side attraction -- that's how this kind of IP should be incorporated throughout the whole pavilion, if they're determined to use it.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I understand the thematic integrity argument against putting Sindbad in Morocco. However, the premise of the ride is that he is journeying on an adventure. It wouldn't take much to simply make Morocco the jumping off point for his adventure through Northern Africa and a mystical middle east.

 

[LittleBuford]

How about a ride based on this now-owned by Disney film:

Fascinating! I’ll have to check this out!

 

[LittleBuford]

I don't think the story itself shows a lack of respect for the culture -- I have no problem with Frozen as a film.

It's only in the context of putting into the World Showcase where I think it displays a lack of respect, because it becomes about the movie and its characters rather than the culture of the country. While I don't think the use of Norwegian architecture and traditional clothing styles alone is enough to make it fit into the World Showcase, it would be an easier sell if those things were the focus of the Arendelle additions.

But Frozen Ever After is just a ride about seeing the characters from Frozen. Any connection with Norwegian culture is incidental. They could have used the Frozen characters to promote learning about Norwegian culture, and they did not. For example, Frozen Ever After could have been a ride or about Norway with Anna, Elsa, etc. as tour guides instead of what it is. They did at least keep the Norwegian flavor at Akershus -- I'll give them that -- but the Norway pavilion has almost become the Arendelle pavilion.

I think they did do a small thing in the Stave Church Gallery where they connected Frozen to Norwegian culture, but that shouldn't be a tiny side attraction -- that's how this kind of IP should be incorporated throughout the whole pavilion, if they're determined to use it.

I’m fond of the ride, so while I certainly see where you’re coming from, its presence doesn’t irk me. I agree the connection to Norway is very surface-level.

 

[UNCgolf]

I’m fond of the ride, so while I certainly see where you’re coming from, its presence doesn’t irk me. I agree the connection to Norway is very surface-level.

I'm sure that helps -- even if I ignore the location fit, I think it has serious design flaws. It's one of my least favorite rides at WDW and I'm still baffled that they're cloning it elsewhere instead of building something better to represent one of their biggest IPs this century.

 

[LittleBuford]

I understand the thematic integrity argument against putting Sindbad in Morocco. However, the premise of the ride is that he is journeying on an adventure. It wouldn't take much to simply make Morocco the jumping off point for his adventure through Northern Africa and a mystical middle east.

The character sets sail from Basra in Iraq. To get to Morocco, he'd have to go all the way around the Cape of Good Hope. He would have further to travel to Morocco than he would to China. Leaving aside the issue of geography, we're stuck with the original issue: the character and his story have nothing to do with Morocco. What you're suggesting would be like putting a Mary Poppins ride in Italy and justifying it by saying she flew there on her umbrella.

 

[tcool123]

It's never going to happen. Not only would the optics be horrible (Morocco is currently the sole African and Islamic presence in World Showcase), but they'd have to pretty much raze the whole pavilion in order to convert it into another country. The Kutubiyya Minaret is as iconic as the Eiffel Tower—you can't just pretend it belongs somewhere outside Morocco.

Hey dont forget The Outpost everyone’s favorite “country” as representing the rest of Africa

 

[LittleBuford]

Hey dont forget The Outpost everyone’s favorite “country” as representing the rest of Africa

The Outpost came to mind right after I wrote my post. Sub-Saharan Africa deserves much better representation at World Showcase.

 

[Robbiem]

The Outpost came to mind right after I wrote my post. Sub-Saharan Africa deserves much better representation at World Showcase.

They should really work out what to do with the outpost. I’m sure there is a good way to complete equitorial africa which doesn’t repeat Harambe, or turn into Wakanda.

I’d love to see more areas represented as well, world showcase is too euro centric. Polynesia, the carribean, south east asia, oceania, South America, Arabia etc there is so much I’d love to see at Epcot