Morocco Pavilion facing financial troubles

[LittleBuford]

Hate to be the "well, actually" guy here, but this is some old-school anthropology here! If you do a quick wikipedia search, be sure read the disclaimer on the first line that the idea of a "Caucasian race" is an outdated concept.

Yes, there is a place in Central Asia called the Caucasus. I've been there! Beautiful place. The "theory" that white people originated from here is because this is said to be where Noah's Ark landed after the great flood. White people in the 1700s, trying to develop categories of people, decided that there were 3 races. These "races" had nothing to do with ethnicity (language, culture, etc.) and were strictly based on physical appearances, or types. They also decided that Circassian women were the most beautiful in the world and that whites must therefore have descended from them.

Caucasian then, started out being "the race with narrow noses, straight jaws, flat faces, small teeth and narrow mouths," (skin color was not a factor). Eventually, caucasian became a synonym for "white people," who then spent a lot of time trying to prove that they were the more highly evolved race and that those with darker skin were less evolved. To that end, they invented the theory of "sub-races" for all the people with darker skin.

Over the last 100 years, we've come to understand the human genome and the role that socialization plays into group identities. We don't guess at the relationships between people groups by looking at the outside, we analyze genes and trace ethnographies.

TL;DR: "Caucasian" is not really a useful/helpful/accurate category. The term is outdated, but is still in use today (mostly in America) to refer to fair-skinned people of European descent.

This. (Though if you'll forgive a correction, the Caucasus is not in Central Asia.)

 

[DCLcruiser]

Interesting, and thank you for the info.

No worries.

FTFY

Yes, in ancient terms. Persia/Persian Empire would also encompass other peoples.

I’ve argued elsewhere that Epcot needs a pavilion devoted to a sub-Saharan African country, so I agree with you on that. The point I’m trying to make here is that the Morocco pavilion is doing double duty, representing both the Arab world and the African continent.

We are on the same page, but Morocco represents the continent and its people as much as Egypt would.

It’s a debunked racial theory that goes back to the late eighteenth century. The modern American use of the word “Caucasian” to refer to white people is an unfortunate holdover. Arabs and Berbers are not Caucasian.

I am not saying the theory is correct, but the term is still used/defined the way it was created, and it includes Arabs and Berbers. You can even check the Wikipedia page for the theory, it mentions Berbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

I'll give a basic example of how in America the term still meets the definition:

When you fill out a form that asks for your ethnicity/race, it typically offers: Caucasian or White, Hispanic, Black, Asian or Native American. Notice, there isn't a Middle Eastern, or Arab, or Israeli, or Iranian or Berber option? That's because in our simplistic way of grouping people, we still use the old definition of Caucasian to include them.

 

[_caleb]

I’ve argued elsewhere that Epcot needs a pavilion devoted to a sub-Saharan African country, so I agree with you on that. The point I’m trying to make here is that the Morocco pavilion is doing double duty, representing both the Arab world and the African continent.

I agree. We had a lovely conversation about this in this thread about Wakanda in World Showcase. Why would we repurpose the Moroccan pavilion rather than just build one to represent a Sub-Saharan nation?

 

[UNCgolf]

I agree. We had a lovely conversation about this in this thread about Wakanda in World Showcase. Why would we repurpose the Moroccan pavilion rather than just build one to represent a Sub-Saharan nation?

Yes, about how insulting it would be to build Wakanda to represent sub-Saharan Africa instead of an actual real country.

Of course if they ever actually did add another country, watch them just build South Africa. Which, sure, is technically sub-Saharan, but it's not exactly the best example for obvious reasons. Ghana, Kenya, or Nigeria would all be good choices (among others).

 

[LittleBuford]

We are on the same page, but Morocco represents the continent and its people as much as Egypt would.

True, but I don't see how that relates to your point that the pavilion should be converted into something generically "Arabian".

I am not saying the theory is correct, but the term is still used/defined the way it was created, and it includes Arabs and Berbers. You can even check the Wikipedia page for the theory, it mentions Berbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

I'll give a basic example of how in America the term still meets the definition:

When you fill out a form that asks for your ethnicity/race, it typically offers: Caucasian or White, Hispanic, Black, Asian or Native American. Notice, there isn't a Middle Eastern, or Arab, or Israeli, or Iranian or Berber option? That's because in our simplistic way of grouping people, we still use the old definition of Caucasian to include them.

Who is "we", though? Yes, the US Census Bureau still (rather inexplicably) lumps all these groups under the label "White" (not "Caucasian", mind). But do Americans themselves (let alone people from other countries) really regard, say, the actors who played Aladdin and Jafar in the recent life-action remake as white?

 

[_caleb]

This. (Though if you'll forgive a correction, the Caucasus is not in Central Asia.)

I think this might be one of those American/British geography things? Do you put it in Eurasia?

 

[Parker in NYC]

True, but I don't see how that relates to your point that the pavilion should be converted into something generically "Arabian".


Who is "we", though? Yes, the US Census Bureau still (rather inexplicably) lumps all these groups under the label "White" (not "Caucasian", mind). But do Americans themselves (let alone people from other countries) really regard, say, the actors who played Aladdin and Jafar in the recent life-action remake as white?

I'd at least classify Jafar as hot. Sorry, it's a reflex.

 

[LittleBuford]

I think this might be one of those American/British geography things? Do you put it in Eurasia?

I don't think this is case of British vs. American English.

Eurasia is just the name for the continents of Asia and Europe considered as a single entity (which, geographically, they are).

The Caucasus spans both (Western) Asia and (Eastern) Europe.

Central Asia is on the other side of the Caspian Sea (Ursula shout-out!).

 

[LittleBuford]

I'd at least classify Jafar as hot. Sorry, it's a reflex.

Oh, they both are!

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Yes, in ancient terms. Persia/Persian Empire would also encompass other peoples.

Correct. I’ve been a longtime subscriber of the more “outdated” take that there are subtle differences in the subset of sapiens that cause those segments to gravitate/conflict with each other.

Suni/Shia is always blamed for the Iraq/Iran tension. Or is it because Iran (like turkey and the Stans of the southern former soviet areas) are Persian and Iraq (like the Middle East and north Eastern Africa) are Arab?

Europe can be divided on that theory as well...but it’s just a take.

Happy hunting

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I'd at least classify Jafar as hot. Sorry, it's a reflex.

Oh, they both are!

..:somebody get the hose

 

[LittleBuford]

Suni/Shia is always blamed for the Iraq/Iran tension. Or is it because Iran (like turkey and the Stans of the southern former soviet areas) are Persian and Iraq (like the Middle East and north Eastern Africa) are Arab?

The tensions between Iran and Iraq are political more than they are ethnic or religious. Most Iraqis are Shia, not Sunni.

Other than Afghanistan and Tajikistan, the Stan countries have mainly Turkic populations.

In most modern context, "Persian" is just an old-fashioned way of saying "Iranian", as well as the name of the principal language spoken in Iran, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan.

 

[DCLcruiser]

True, but I don't see how that relates to your point that the pavilion should be converted into something generically "Arabian".


Who is "we", though? Yes, the US Census Bureau still (rather inexplicably) lumps all these groups under the label "White" (not "Caucasian", mind). But do Americans themselves (let alone people from other countries) really regard, say, the actors who played Aladdin and Jafar in the recent life-action remake as white?

I meant that if Disney now controls it, then they have an opportunity to expand its representation. Similar to how Norway was originally a Scandinavian pavilion. I never said it should represent Sub-Saharan Africans, that should be another pavilion. The new pavilion could represent the golden age of North Africa/Levant/Arabian Peninsula and feel free to add Persia.

We, is people using the word the way it was intended. To represent a wide ranging group of people who theoretically derived from one common place. Which is actually supported for Indo-Aryan and Indo-Europeans as our languages all share commonality where it is scientifically believed we derive from a single Proto-Language, possibly in the Caucasus Mountains. This includes Europe (sans Hungary/Finland), Iran and India. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language

Jafar is as white as my Italian father. What race would you say he is? Black, Asian, Hispanic,* White (Non-Hispanic) or Native?

*Hispanic is, to simplify, half Caucasian (of Hispania: Spain/Portugal) / half Native (South American, Central American or Caribbean)

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The tensions between Iran and Iraq are political more than they are ethnic or religious. Most Iraqis are Shia, not Sunni.

Other than Afghanistan and Tajikistan, the Stan countries have mainly Turkic populations.

In most modern context, "Persian" is just an old-fashioned way of saying "Iranian", as well as the name of the principal language spoken in Iran, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan.

That’s why I said “outdated”...it’s not a perfect theory...but you can trace some tribal origins over millennia and make somewhat loose correlations.

Not perfect at tall

 

[LittleBuford]

The new pavilion could represent the golden age of North Africa/Levant/Arabian Peninsula and feel free to add Persia.

This would be as problematic and reductive as having a single "European" or "Latin American" pavilion.

We, is people using the word the way it was intended. To represent a wide ranging group of people who theoretically derived from one common place. Which is actually supported for Indo-Aryan and Indo-Europeans as our languages all share commonality where it is scientifically believed we derive from a single Proto-Language, possibly in the Caucasus Mountains. This includes Europe (sans Hungary/Finland), Iran and India. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language

You're moving goalposts. That the Indo-European peoples have a common heritage is well accepted and amply substantiated by linguistic evidence. But this is a separate issue from the pseudo-scientific and debunked notion of a Caucasoid race.

Jafar is as white as my Italian father.

Neither of those actors is white. That they are people of colour is important to recognise and acknowledge, now more than ever.

What race would you say he is? Black, Asian, Hispanic,* White (Non-Hispanic) or Native?

I don't take the US Census Bureau's categorisations as definitive; they are not universally accepted.

 

[DCLcruiser]

That’s why I said “outdated”...it’s not a perfect theory...but you can trace some tribal origins over millennia and make somewhat loose correlations.

Not perfect at tall

I'll bite. A lot of the issues in the middle east (outside of Israel/Palestine/Judaism/Islam) is thanks to the British and French drawing up borders w/o talking to tribal leaders of the many peoples within their colonies. And then they left.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I'll bite. A lot of the issues in the middle east (outside of Israel/Palestine/Judaism/Islam) is thanks to the British and French drawing up borders w/o talking to tribal leaders of the many peoples within their colonies. And then they left.

Oh I’m not disputing that at all.

I’m more wondering why some areas can NEVER get along? A lot of the tension in Europe during the 20th century falls along the (if you believe in it) “Slav/Caucasian” divide as well.

I’m saying maybe Iran and Iraq are just ingrained to hate each other more (and now we’re down the well...so I’ll make this the last)...instead of the idea during the 70s/80s that the Hussein Sunni minority is what caused the conflict and Iran’s coming to Shiite defense.

Now I’ve gone cross eyed. I agree colonialism is a big root problem as well.

 

[DCLcruiser]

This would be as problematic and reductive as having a single "European" or "Latin American" pavilion.


You're moving goalposts. That the Indo-European peoples have a common heritage is well accepted and amply substantiated by linguistic evidence. But this is a separate issue from the pseudo-scientific and debunked notion of a Caucasoid race.


Neither of those actors is white. That they are people of colour is important to recognise and acknowledge, now more than ever.

If the pavilion was big enough it could cover it all. Or about the size of a few kiosks representing Sub-Saharan Africa.

If you accept the Indo-European linguistics theory, then you accept that Iranians are Caucasian?

 

[LittleBuford]

I’m more wondering why some areas can NEVER get along? A lot of the tension in Europe during the 20th century falls along the (if you believe in it) “Slav/Caucasian” divide as well.

I’m saying maybe Iran and Iraq are just ingrained to hate each other more (and now we’re down the well...so I’ll make this the last)...instead of the idea during the 70s/80s that the Hussein Sunni minority is what caused the conflict and Iran’s coming to Shiite defense.

These are really problematic and outdated notions that have no scientific or historical basis.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Neither of those actors is white. That they are people of colour is important to recognise and acknowledge, now more than ever.

Jonathan Freeman is white.

Good stage actor too. Saw him on broadway.