Monorail Update January 2015

COProgressFan

Well-Known Member
Comparing a transit system in Japan to the US is ridiculous. Two very, very different cultures when it comes to trash, fluids of all kinds, and changing Jr. on the train.
Would you like to know when the Monorails were semi pristine? Back in the 70s when the Mark IVs had bench seats, individual doors, and you had to wait for the CM to close each and every door. You got to cozy up to strangers, sit side by side and knee to knee (two bench seats facing each other. I swear, the things people complain about. Go start your own park and do it better then.

Yes, the monorails were in better condition in 70's (don't forget the 80's, 90's and early 2000's too!). The problem is they have aged poorly due to the lack of maintenance. Perhaps they are in great mechanical shape (questionable in itself), but the physical outward condition which guests have to experience is poor.

As others have mentioned, airlines (who were in dire financial situations for a number of years) have been able to fly aircraft for many decades, yet the general condition of the interiors remains good, despite all their wear, because they are regularly maintained. Carpets are relayed, seats reupholstered, fixtures replaced every so many years to keep them in good condition. But WDW chose not to do this to their monorails. You can't somehow blame poor guest behavior in 2015 for monorail interiors that should have been overhauled 10 years ago.

And the part about going to start a park and do it better ... we don't have to, Disney already did it for us for the first 25 or 30 years of WDW's existence. That is the problem.
 

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
I see the trains EVERY DAY. I know what there condition is, and I know more about their condition than a guest who visits a few times a year. The guests are the primary reason the trains stay in the condition they are in for as long as they do. Disney is being gracious by making sure the guests have transportation to and from the Magic Kingdom and Epcot, and when the trains are down the guests get angry.

Those trains go though hell every single day because the Magic Kingdom is open all the time for the guests. Guests leave trash, stain the carpet with various fluids, scuff up the moldings, tear up the seats, etc. The management does not do that, the cast members do not do that, only the guests. If you want the trains in the condition they were when new, that will never happen unless the trains go out of service for an extended period of time, and once again if you following the pattern, guests will complain constantly in the parks and on this very website. Disney can't win.

So when Disney IS investing money into the trains, in more ways that you know, instead of complaining that the carpeting isn't perfectly straight, enjoy what you have because I guarantee you that the carpets won't look new once summer comes.

I get what you're saying.

It seems to me that Disney could invest in another train maintenance building, perhaps down by Epcot, and a few other trains so that they can swap them out and still maintain the level of service. I'm not saying it's going to happen, just that there is a solution that could be had.
 

ILOVEDISNEY

Active Member
In 1971 the monorails were something to behold and and were like nothing else in the eastern US, but have always been a disaster in waiting. Any Central Floridian knows sinkholes are an ever present threat/danger and even a small one would shut down the monorail system forever. Heaven forbid one would occur under the Magic Kingdom. The monorails should have been replaced with a light rail system years ago after the novelty of riding a monorail was over. This current discussion of mold, mildew and alignment of carpeting, etc. is a distraction. Yes, Disney engineers constantly monitor the pylons, beams, etc., but Mother Nature is the ultimate engineer.
 
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P_Radden

Well-Known Member
Would it do any good if members of this site and other WDW fan sites came together say on a FB page created to call attention to this particular issue? WDW/TDO management would be forced to face the issue publicly and deal with it before it spreads to bad publicity.

So instead of "settling for little" like mentioned above, we basically make a big stink about it all over the internet until WDW is forced to announce something like a major overhaul or replacement. Thoughts?
 

lobelia

Well-Known Member
Would it do any good if members of this site and other WDW fan sites came together say on a FB page created to call attention to this particular issue? WDW/TDO management would be forced to face the issue publicly and deal with it before it spreads to bad publicity.

So instead of "settling for little" like mentioned above, we basically make a big stink about it all over the internet until WDW is forced to announce something like a major overhaul or replacement. Thoughts?

If someone is willing to put in the energy to create a social media presence for this cause it could make an impact. If you have the time, expertise and passion go for it. I will visit this site and support it in spirit. Monorails are cool and a fine piece of the WDW tradition. Don't let anyone tell you they won't listen. Somebody, somewhere will listen and eventually they will hear.
 

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
Would it do any good if members of this site and other WDW fan sites came together say on a FB page created to call attention to this particular issue? WDW/TDO management would be forced to face the issue publicly and deal with it before it spreads to bad publicity.

So instead of "settling for little" like mentioned above, we basically make a big stink about it all over the internet until WDW is forced to announce something like a major overhaul or replacement. Thoughts?

There are so many issues like this with WDW though, and believe me fans have been very vocal, but they're drowned out a thousand fold by those who think the resort has never been in better shape and would prefer fancy wristbands to any new attractions. Disney has legions of loyal social media people who would suppress any story long before it hit the mainstream consciousness.

The only thing that makes Disney takes notice is a drop in revenue, but park attendance has never been higher.
 

P_Radden

Well-Known Member
I would be willing to create the FB page for support of WDW monorail overhaul/refurbish, however I have no pictures of my own to post showing the current conditions of the trains & tracks. Could someone help take some pics of everything described, or share your own pics? Also, we would need the support of this community to share the page with their FB friends/family and also share with other online communities like WDW fan sites, reddit, etc... to build a widespread online voice.

We need to make our point and goal simple. Be polite and creative with suggestions that would support WDW decision makers and not trash them for the neglect that is so obvious.

The project of overhauling/refurbishing the WDW monorails tracks and trains provides a huge opportunity for Disney to really do something creative with current technologies and be innovative. Wow us, make everyone jealous of the WDW monorail system. Give the other parks (and UNI) something to talk about.
 

CDavid

Well-Known Member
In 1971 the monorails were something to behold and and were like nothing else in the eastern US, but have always been a disaster in waiting. Any Central Floridian knows sinkholes are an ever present threat/danger and even a small one would shut down the monorail system forever. Heaven forbid one would occur under the Magic Kingdom. The monorails should have been replaced with a light rail system years ago after the novelty of riding a monorail was over. This current discussion of mold, mildew and alignment of carpeting, etc. is a distraction. Yes, Disney engineers constantly monitor the pylons, beams, etc., but Mother Nature is the ultimate engineer.

Your sinkhole argument is utterly and completely a red herring (and not even a very good one).

The issue is simply the almighty dollar, often coupled with benign neglect and apathy on the part of Disney management.
 

wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
I see the trains EVERY DAY. I know what there condition is, and I know more about their condition than a guest who visits a few times a year. The guests are the primary reason the trains stay in the condition they are in for as long as they do. Disney is being gracious by making sure the guests have transportation to and from the Magic Kingdom and Epcot, and when the trains are down the guests get angry.

Those trains go though hell every single day because the Magic Kingdom is open all the time for the guests. Guests leave trash, stain the carpet with various fluids, scuff up the moldings, tear up the seats, etc. The management does not do that, the cast members do not do that, only the guests. If you want the trains in the condition they were when new, that will never happen unless the trains go out of service for an extended period of time, and once again if you following the pattern, guests will complain constantly in the parks and on this very website. Disney can't win.

So when Disney IS investing money into the trains, in more ways that you know, instead of complaining that the carpeting isn't perfectly straight, enjoy what you have because I guarantee you that the carpets won't look new once summer comes.
I agree that guests are a major problem. Some people have such low standards it disgusts me. I watched a kid pulling on the metal section of the wall in the Soarin queue where the neon lights are. his dad was just standing there watching him. Ridiculous.

That being said though, other trains/monorail systems are subject to the same, if not worse, disgusting low standard type of people and they manage to keep their trains in better condition than Disney does. I cant excuse the company simply because of ignorant guests. Disney is aware of the problem so why not be proactive and install new material thats less prone to get scratched from a stroller or easier to wipe down, or easier to replace a damaged panel? (3D printers would help) Perhaps add a small trash bin inside the cabins and add a small part to the monorail spiel about keeping the cabin clean or just a small sign in the cabin telling people to keep it clean.

Im just spitballing, and please dont think Im excusing guest behavior in any way because I am not. Disney has the money and capability to upkeep the trains, they just choose not to. Please note that I 100% agree with you about guest behavior, but people arent gonna change and Disney will have to spend the money either way, so why not just take the step of preventative maintenance and do something about it rather than wait and have a horrible looking fleet.
 

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
Everything you describe ultimately all comes down to management. Management set up the competing business units business plans. Management sets the operating hours. Management sets the budgets. Management set the personal count.

I've worked in the "funny-money" management world (well, under it, I suppose). It's absolutely bizarre. You're all supposed to be part of the same corporation/team but, because of accounting principles, which kind of make sense on one level but make no sense on a sort of "real world" level, you can end up sitting on your hands doing nothing because some official request hasn't come through, been signed off on, and handed off to you in some official capacity.

You may be looking right at the guy who's asking you to do something relatively simple/easy and may take all of 10minutes to accomplish, but because of the management/accounting rules you have to sit there, for perhaps days, while you want for the official request to come in.

I know that there have been things as simple as a typo on a website that took me 6 weeks to get through the official channels and finally fixed in production. Now, your thought process is likely like everyone else's: Why not just fix it and avoid the 6 week process? Sometimes you do but if you get caught, even though it makes complete sense from a business point of view (10min of work vs 6 weeks of acquisitions while you may be idle), you'll catch all sorts of hell for it if caught.

I think that the problem really boils down to the process being more important than the production. It's a management problem and, really, a business/corporation problem and there are a lot of us out in the world that have to deal with the nonsense. It's why smaller companies come out of nowhere to eat our lunch - they're busy having production (actually getting something done) being more important than process (accounting for every bolt, nut, and nail). It's why their costs are lower, even though every moment of every day isn't requisitioned for or accounted for. They get things done.

If you've never been in it, it's maddening.

I don't know how it is at WDW but imagine you're one of the custodians that cleans the trains. Train pulls into the shop and you're being paid for the next 8 hours to clean 4 trains. The problem is that someone at the resorts side of business went on vacation, had a bigger problem to solve, or whatever and forgot to send in the request (and the appropriate payment - all within the same company which is where the "funny money" bit comes in) and you're told, "We weren't requested to do this. We haven't been paid to do this. Leave the trains alone tonight." The full crew is still getting paid. The management could sort this out the next day. Instead, you stare at the trains and they go out crappy the next day... All because some process wasn't followed or fell through the cracks somewhere. From a business perspective it still cost them, in very real money, to have everyone on staff that day to clean the trains and not work, but the funny money / forms weren't passed around so there you stand.

These processes are usually put in place, here's the kicker, to save money. I think their intentions are good, but what they really are trying to track is waste, and reduce it, and don't understand that there's a good bit of production that comes out of managed chaos. When you put these sorts of systems in place to track everything all the time then you end up with people having to account for their time 10 times an hour (every 6min) and less and less work actually gets done. You spend more time telling someone what you're doing (filling out forms, in reality) than actually getting something done.

I think there's also this thought process of: No thought. No responsibility.

If you don't do your job then, when these tightly controlled systems in place, you can almost always find something to blame it on. "I didn't get the form.. I wasn't told.." Also, the business thinks it's a benefit that you won't ever make any mistakes because everything is so controlled (like when you call a CSR and they don't think or understand what they're doing but just follow the script and you can never get your odd problem solved).

It's really a shame that this all happens but it's kind of a self-perpetuating nonsense sort of thing. Happens in governments, too. They never accept that some rule was broken or just something bad happened, nope, new regulations and laws are needed to ensure that nothing bad ever happens again.. And so it grows for both corporations and governments...

...until it collapses.
 
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wdisney9000

Truindenashendubapreser
Premium Member
As long as we get excited by the addition of new carpeting, nothing much will change.

We've set our collective target very low.

Heck, the most exciting thing on this site in recent years is the removal of something.

We get little because we settle for little.
This is the absolute truth. Sadly, so many people are blind to it. They know they are settling for mediocrity, but would rather settle than risk their reality be shattered by accepting the truth.

Mediocrity would always win by force of numbers, but it would win only more mediocrity. -Ellen Glasgow
 

Figment2005

Well-Known Member
I agree that guests are a major problem. Some people have such low standards it disgusts me. I watched a kid pulling on the metal section of the wall in the Soarin queue where the neon lights are. his dad was just standing there watching him. Ridiculous.

That being said though, other trains/monorail systems are subject to the same, if not worse, disgusting low standard type of people and they manage to keep their trains in better condition than Disney does. I cant excuse the company simply because of ignorant guests. Disney is aware of the problem so why not be proactive and install new material thats less prone to get scratched from a stroller or easier to wipe down, or easier to replace a damaged panel? (3D printers would help) Perhaps add a small trash bin inside the cabins and add a small part to the monorail spiel about keeping the cabin clean or just a small sign in the cabin telling people to keep it clean.

Im just spitballing, and please dont think Im excusing guest behavior in any way because I am not. Disney has the money and capability to upkeep the trains, they just choose not to. Please note that I 100% agree with you about guest behavior, but people arent gonna change and Disney will have to spend the money either way, so why not just take the step of preventative maintenance and do something about it rather than wait and have a horrible looking fleet.
To be completely honest, I don't think they could keep up with today's visitors. Even if the budget was perfect, it would take nothing short of reupholstering the trains every night to keep them looking new. I think the only way to prevent the stains is by prohibiting food and drink on the train. However there is no way to truly enforce it, so that will never happen.
 

wdwmagic

Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
To be completely honest, I don't think they could keep up with today's visitors. Even if the budget was perfect, it would take nothing short of reupholstering the trains every night to keep them looking new. I think the only way to prevent the stains is by prohibiting food and drink on the train. However there is no way to truly enforce it, so that will never happen.
But they manage it in quick service restaurants, hotel lobby areas, even the busses. It can be done if there is a desire to do so.
 

Figment2005

Well-Known Member
But they manage it in quick service restaurants, hotel lobby areas, even the busses. It can be done if there is a desire to do so.
But the difference is the area is always staffed by cast to keep an eye on it. With the trains, if a cast member misses an item or a guest hides an item, they have 3-20 minutes of no cast observation to prevent them from breaking the rule.
 

wdwmagic

Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
But the difference is the area is always staffed by cast to keep an eye on it. With the trains, if a cast member misses an item or a guest hides an item, they have 3-20 minutes of no cast observation to prevent them from breaking the rule.
I wasn't referring to preventing food and drink being consumed, more that they are able to keep quick service restaurants etc. very clean, despite the fact that there are food and drinks involved, and being spilled all over the place. The monorails, if given proper attention, could be kept to the same standard.
 

Brad Bishop

Well-Known Member
So it all comes down to corporate penny-pinching to maximize profits? Big surprise there I guess. It absolutely drives me crazy that the companies and brands we admire are all going this route these days. How many BILLIONS does any single company need to stack and stack? I know this is completely off topic, but I am also a BMW enthusiast from when they actually made simple, fun to drive cars. We are constantly having this same discussion on BMW forums. The new cars are cheap ****, designed to look good, but are overly complicated with cheap parts and cheap electronics. The look good enough to sell, but are a nightmare to own and live with. BMW AG is raking in millions in profits from skimping out on quality. I can't believe people who are in charge of companies with great reputations that took decades to build are willing to let them go to $hit simply to maximize profits, especially when they have ooodles of money in the bank. The Quandt family who is majority share holders in BMW is the wealthiest family in Germany and they are choosing to let the brand quality go to **** to continue maximizing their profits. Does the Disney family not give a care that their image/reputation is slipping so badly? Does the Disney family actually have any say over the day-to-day operations at the parks or are they solely focused on profits and shareholders?

Jeez it feels good to get that off my chest. Sry for the rant again haha

I think this all lies in the notion that you're, if you're in management, are rewarded for short term profits. No one cares about 10 years down the road.

It amazes me how some companies, who were at the top of their game not too long ago, are nearly just memories of the past, now.

Bed, Bath, & Beyond: Go back 20 years and it was a premium store. You can see the last bits of it being a premium store in Adam Sandler's movie, "Remote Control." It's an "as seen on TV" junk store now. I don't know anyone who goes in there for premium anything. I don't even know if they sell premium stuff any longer. It's a junk store. They all look junky on the inside. Somewhere along the line (well, about 15+ years back) some manager said, "If we sold some of this as-seen-on TV garbage our profits will be huge!" No thought to losing their customer base (higher-end customers spending a little more money on premium products).

I think Disney, by and large, keeps up the overall appearance of being something of quality. They do skimp in dumb ways, though. Keeping the monorails up is one of them. Doing a kind of half-baked job on new attractions or retreads in another obvious way. Not keeping up with Epcot, etc.

Those sorts of little things will eventually have people, who were loyal premium paying customers for quite some time, not coming back. Sure, you'll get a bubble from time to time, which I think they're enjoying now, but that bubble will eventually become a trough and that solid base can be lost.

It's easier to keep your name in good standing with your customer than it is to ruin it and beg them to come back and give you a second chance.
 

Figment2005

Well-Known Member
I wasn't referring to preventing food and drink being consumed, more that they are able to keep quick service restaurants etc. very clean, despite the fact that there are food and drinks involved, and being spilled all over the place. The monorails, if given proper attention, could be kept to the same standard.
Oh okay, I misunderstood your point. Until all the carpets are changed out, however, the increased custodial attention will not be noticed because the old carpets are beyond repair. I believe a difference will be seen with the new carpets, but it still won't be perfect because guests can cause the most obnoxious stains.
 

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