Monorail to MGM

[Monorail Lime]

Re: Monorail: Good/Monorail: Bad

Originally posted by tahoe98
The bad: high cost to purchase; high cost to maintain; it's a "free" ride.

It doesn't have to be. When expansion was first being seriously considered a couple of years back, WDW was polling guests to see if they would be willing to pay to ride the monorail. If major expansion occurs, fee based transportation is almost inevitable.

At the Tokyo Disney resort, a monorail day pass costs about $4. The WDW monorail system has 150k+ passengers per day. $4 * 150,000 passengers = $600,000 a day! Of course there would be some overhead associated with the ticketing system and they'd have to sell discount tickets to tour groups but they could still pull in almost half a million bucks a day.

That's with the current system. If the system were expanded they would get more passengers per day and they could get away with more expensive tickets. Let's suppose service to additional areas and higher capacity trains increase the passenger count by 50% to 225,000 / day. And since people would be glad to pay to ride on a spankin new system, they set the day pass price at $5. Lo and behold, the monorail is is taking in $1,125,000 per day! If you figure maintenance and electricity to cost a quarter million per day, that gives Disney a $875,000 daily profit. Some claim the expansion would cost a billion dollars, but even with that hefty price tag it could pay for itself in a little over three years!

 

[cymbaldiva]

Fantasia Boi -

Thank you for your insights - you made a lot of really great points that I hadn't even thought about!

I bow to the master...

 

[cymbaldiva]

:sohappy: :sohappy: :sohappy:

I just became an Imagineer!

:sohappy: :sohappy: :sohappy:

I'm sorry - just had to share!

And now back to the current thread...

 

[TURKEY]

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi


What do we have now? 20 or so resorts, 4 theme parks, 2 water parks, mini golf, a sports complex, and Downtown Disney.

It's just a little bit different now.

I'm pretty sure it's only 19 resorts, 4 theme parks, 2 water parks, 2 mini golfs (if you count Winter Summerland seperate from Blizzard Beach), a sports complex, Downtown Disney, Boardwalk. :animwink:

 

[Invero]

Re: Re: Monorail: Good/Monorail: Bad

Originally posted by Monorail Lime
The WDW monorail system has 150k+ passengers per day. $4 * 150,000 passengers = $600,000 a day! Of course there would be some overhead associated with the ticketing system and they'd have to sell discount tickets to tour groups but they could still pull in almost half a million bucks a day.

Lime... I hate to disagree with you... however, with that reasoning, you're charging folks per ride... remember that count of 150,000 people is "rides" not "riders"

In addition, it would be unfair to charge folks $7 to park a mile from the park, and then $4 to actually get there, on TOP of the $55 ticket price. (or however much it amounts to) The Express monorail (and part of the Epcot monorail) is already figured into the MK Ticket price... adding $4 to that would be like double charging. The same with Resort Guests... they already pay for Disney Transportation because its included with thier room...

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by cymbaldiva
Fantasia Boi -

Thank you for your insights - you made a lot of really great points that I hadn't even thought about!

I bow to the master...

Hehe... That's my job! But, thank YOU for reading and understanding them!

 

[Monorail Lime]

Re: Re: Re: Monorail: Good/Monorail: Bad

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi


Lime... I hate to disagree with you... however, with that reasoning, you're charging folks per ride... remember that count of 150,000 people is "rides" not "riders"

In addition, it would be unfair to charge folks $7 to park a mile from the park, and then $4 to actually get there, on TOP of the $55 ticket price. (or however much it amounts to) The Express monorail (and part of the Epcot monorail) is already figured into the MK Ticket price... adding $4 to that would be like double charging. The same with Resort Guests... they already pay for Disney Transportation because its included with thier room...

Yeah, now that I've thought about it a little more my "what works for Japan would work at WDW" assumption is way off. Most Japanese people are accustomed to paying for mass transportation every day so they don’t mind shelling out a few hundred yen for the JR train to Maihama and the Tokyo Disney Resort Line monorail. Americans aren’t accustomed to budgeting transportation into every trip and don't want to break out their wallets every step of the way. I bet Disney discovered that during their survey and it could be the reason expansion never came to be...

Oh well, it was nice to dream for a moment.

 

[Invero]

It's kinda funny how culture really plays a big role into things... how they can be so different depending on where you are at...

 

[MicBat]

A lot of people wouldn't ride the monorail if you had to pay for it!

 

[Jeff D]

I do agrre with Tyler abot why the monorail would be effective but I see one possible thing that could cause it to be built.

Orlando is currently working towrds greenlighting a massive transportaion project. So far the people running it have been pushing for a light rail which would really mess up traffic around the city. However, one of the higher ups on teh city commision is questioning why they are not looking into a monorail system. I think the argument is since Las Vegas is doing why could Orlando use it instead of light rail and have the entire track elevated. Of course we all know that this would avoid alot of unneccesary congestion during construction and during operation. Of course this really got going when the high speed rail was voted for and it looks good for Orlando to have a good transportaion system to make use of the stop the Rail would make there.

My thought is this and it's highly hypothetical. What if Orlando went with a monorail? I figure it would do one of two things for the monorail at Disney. 1) It would gaurantee there would be no expansion since they would, without a doubt, get a stop on the system. They would figure that since they have current transportion they can just link to it easily and keep doing what they are doing. 2) This is the big if. Disney would feel that they have nbo choice but to do some sort of expansion to show that they are not behind teh times. Yes, they currently have a monorail and they show it off but at least covering all of the parks with it would make them look just as progressive as the rest of the city. I am not saying the system would really be beneficial but if you have a high speed rail going through a major city, then the city builds a monorail to improve public transportaion which will definantly stop at you. I would think Disney would want to have the image of going form a high tech monorail to a bus to get around their property. It just a thought but I thought I would throw that out there.

Tyler, since you work there how do you think something like this would effect the current mentality in the company and how do you feel they might react?

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by Jeff D
Tyler, since you work there how do you think something like this would effect the current mentality in the company and how do you feel they might react?

Well... personally, I think Orlando would benefit from a Monorail system, instead of a light rail system. Create a lot less headaches.

As for Disney... what Orlando does is its own business. Disney doesn't really have that mentality, where when they get one upped, they have to one up someone else. Disney is not going to spend a billion dollars just to "compete" with Orlando.

 

[SilentRascal]

Disney definitely has the way and means to expand the monorail line...after all, they certainly have the money to go around building more unnecessary resorts, so they surely have the money to extend the monorail line. It would definitely be a good thing if they did, too.

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by YankeeFan
Disney definitely has the way and means to expand the monorail line...after all, they certainly have the money to go around building more unnecessary resorts, so they surely have the money to extend the monorail line. It would definitely be a good thing if they did, too.

Here's the difference.

I'm taking a wild stab in the dark, but I'm guessing that a Disney Resort would be in the viscinity of $150 million or so? Correct me, if anyone has any more accurate numbers.

As for the monorail... Expanding the monorail would cost around a BILLION dollars. Yes, that is correct, and accurate.

Note the huge difference in price. Also note that a resort is a large revenue generator. A monorail generates $0.00

 

[JLW11Hi]

I think the monorail is fine the way it is. All of the problems with adding on to the monorail are very apparent. It works fine for most of the MK resorts and a nice link to Epcot, with convenience and similarity in theme.

When Walt was planning Epcot, he knew that after some of the ideas were examined and researched, some would be thrown out and mroe would be added in. That was the whole point of Epcot: to experiment with these new ideas, and see if they work or not.

One of these ideas? The monorail. Actually, the original plan for the monorail was even more inconvenient than the current one, as it was to travel down a straight line through the areas of WDW and to the Theme Park. As research went on after Walt's passing, Imagineers of course found that it woudl be much better to have the monorail go in a circle.

Now, after 30 years since the original monorail was built, we have learned a lot from it and the guests using it. Disney has had the opertunity to use their "experimental data" tehy have gained form the monorail at work, and have found that although somewhat efficient in some areas, there are better, more efficient ways to go. But that doesn't mean the original monorail wont stick around! It will stand for as long as Disney wants, as a monument to the inginuity and imagination that the Imagineers of the original WDW held. Now, the current day Imagineers have the duty to find the next ideas for future transportation at the World. From some of the things we have been shown on previous threads, like this one long bus with a bigger passenger capacity, it seems that Disney may once again find a "trademark" form of transportation, like the monorail ahs been for the past 30 years.

 

[Cliff]

The resorts directly make money.

Monorails do not.

If disney had a billion dollars to blow on something, I'd MUCH rather they spend it on upgrading AK....or something like that.

CT : - )

 

[space42]

Originally posted by 10021982
The resorts directly make money.

Monorails do not.

If disney had a billion dollars to blow on something, I'd MUCH rather they spend it on upgrading AK....or something like that.

CT : - )

I agree.

That is why it is sad to see Disney blow 5 billion on the Fox Family network. They did come up with money to blow. They just chose to blow it on something other than the theme parks and resorts. Something they thought would be more of a return on their investiment I suppose.

So many of the things that make WDW such a great place did/do not seem like very good busniess decisions. Like building the man made 7 seas lagoon in front of the MK instead of just having the parking lot in front of the park. Building a hotel with a monorail going through the middle of it. Building a theme park on the second story while having all of the supporting buildings underneath on the first floor. Most of these things were done in the name of good show and are not directly involved in a profit center.

I do not believe we will see a monorail expansion in the near future.

 

[cymbaldiva]

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi


Hehe... That's my job! But, thank YOU for reading and understanding them!

You're Welcome!

BTW, I've been reading your posts since then - I'm still bowing to the Master!

"We're not worthy, we're not worthy..." :animwink:

 

[thedisneyfan]

I'm very glad that none of you monorail expansion detractors were around when they built Epcot! I can just see it now, everybody look as the big bus circles around Spaceship Earth on its way to the Bus station just outside of Epcot! That would have been just fantastic! In addition, as WDW expands a monorail expansion becomes more and more needed to help decongest the roads through WDW. Keeping fewer buses and cars on these roads is a plus and a monrail is more environmentally friendly, more aesthetically pleasing, and provides more pleasant views than buses. As to the cost, apparently this number has a wide range and nobody knows what the end cost would be. It can't be a billion dollars to simply add a station and connect the Monorail to MGM. The cost of Jacksonville's commuter system cost less than a billion dollars and that was new construction for an entire city, not a short distance within the confines of WDW. In addition, unless I'm mistaken MGM is rather close to Epcot not some ten miles away? Therefore, I think that expanding the monorail would be a brilliant idea.

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
I'm very glad that none of you monorail expansion detractors were around when they built Epcot! I can just see it now, everybody look as the big bus circles around Spaceship Earth on its way to the Bus station just outside of Epcot! That would have been just fantastic!

See my post above as to why Monorails made sense for Epcot back in 1982, but not now in 2002.

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
In addition, as WDW expands a monorail expansion becomes more and more needed to help decongest the roads through WDW. Keeping fewer buses and cars on these roads is a plus and a monrail is more environmentally friendly, more aesthetically pleasing, and provides more pleasant views than buses.

Adding a monorail will do very little to decongest the roads. The fact is that Disney busses probably only makes up less than 5% of traffic on our roads. The rest is charter busses, day guest vehicles, cast members, and other Disney company vehicles.

Think about it. The Magic Kingdom parking lot has approx 11,000 parking spaces. Assuming its a busy day, and the parking lot fills to 10,000 cars. During the daytime, the MK will run 35 busses, and that will probably go up to 65-70 busses for the close. Assuming each bus does an average of 4 runs during the exit, that means that the busses servicing the MK would equal 2.8% of the traffic for the Magic Kingdom.

Originally posted by thedisneyfan
As to the cost, apparently this number has a wide range and nobody knows what the end cost would be. It can't be a billion dollars to simply add a station and connect the Monorail to MGM.

Well, it's more than just plopping down a station and track... But let's analyse this here. You're just talking about adding a connection from Epcot to the Studios. How much guest traffic is there really from Epcot to the Studios? Very very little traffic in the morning. Things dont pick up until afternoon. And then we'll say an average of 200 people per direction per hour. 2 busses on route, with a third for peak times could easily handle that, and not contribute to congestion on the roads. Just that line alone is no where near justification for a monorail expansion.

As for costs... I can give you true accurate numbers

The new Las Vegas system... when finished, it will be about 6.7 miles, will feature 9 four-car trains, and will cost an estimated $689million.... that's approx $102million per mile.

By the way, for reference... the Epcot monorail is about 7 miles in length.

If Disney were to expand the system, it would be longer than 7 miles in length, and would feature more switches. In addition, we would need a lot more than just 9 four-car trains. $1billion is a very probable number.

 

[no2apprentice]

Originally posted by space42

So many of the things that make WDW such a great place did/do not seem like very good busniess decisions. Like building the man made 7 seas lagoon in front of the MK instead of just having the parking lot in front of the park. Building a hotel with a monorail going through the middle of it. Building a theme park on the second story while having all of the supporting buildings underneath on the first floor. Most of these things were done in the name of good show and are not directly involved in a profit center.

I do not believe we will see a monorail expansion in the near future.

As far as the Seven Seas lagoon, I believe in the original plans it called for seven resorts (or was it five?) on the monorail line going around the lagoon. Each resort would have represented a different part of the world. Initially, only three were built, and then they stopped. Too bad, I thought it was a great concept.

As far as the MK being a two level structure, this was necessity since the water table is so high in the ground. I suppose they could have the park at grade, and all the necessary support buildings behind the walls and trees around the park, but that doesn't leave much option for outward expansion.

As far as a monorail going through a hotel, I have no hard numbers, but I know from reading the posts that several members enjoy staying at the Contemporary just for that reason. It's cool. It's a "WOW" factor. Whether that's good for profit, is debatable either way, depending on how conservative/liberal you are in your investment/return beliefs.

And, I agree - I doubt we'll see any monorail expansion in the near future. Can they do it if they really wanted to? Sure they could. Can they find the money if they really wanted to? Yep, you bet. But they obviously don't want to, because the current upper management mentality seems to be to not take chances with money as far as the parks are concerned. I guess they need profits from the WDW empire to buy more red ink for the rest of Disney's investments.