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Monorail Front-Riding
- Thread starter kingdaniel97
- Start date
Tom
Beta Return
By no means was "pilot distraction" the core issue.
kaos
Active Member
If there had been a rear pilot, there would have been no incident. Plain and simple. In the past, there were rear pilots that would board the train prior to a switching operation. These positions were cut as a cost cutting measure about 15 years ago when the Mark VI monorails were introduced. (please correct me if my dates are wrong). Better "prism mirrors" were the official reasons for allowing this position cut. Again, the core issue to the incident was a lack of managerial supervision. Had proper SOP been followed, this would not have ever occurred.
kaos
Active Member
DL's classification as an attraction over transport system has EVERYTHING to do with it. If an incident were to occur, the NTSB would not be involved and there would be no government oversight except for OSHA. Look back at the Skyway incidents in the past. They were classified as attractions and not transportation, so the NTSB did not conduct an investigation. The WDW Railroad is also classified as transportation and not attraction. If there were an incident, the NTSB would also be brought in to invenstigate. I think it has something to do with funding to maintain the steam boilers and recertification process. I know museums and other non-transportation operators have to go through a recertification process that is much more stringent than those using steam power for transportation.
clarkstallings
New Member
Boo beat me to it, but I too recall reading a list of NTSB mandates and among them was something to the effect of, "all efforts to prevent drivers/pilots from being distracted must be made." I think this requirement effectively kills the opportunity to have guests riding in the front cab with the current iteration of monorail trains.
s8film40
Well-Known Member
I didn't say distraction. The problem was simply just not paying attention, I hate to say it but there is no excuse for driving a monorail or any vehicle for that matter without knowing where you are.
The rear cab positions in the past were not for the purpose of making visuals when backing up, the driver was responsible for that. When the accident happened all of the procedures and SOP were being followed correctly. It was one of those rare sequences of events that would have only been prevented by people being attentive and knowledgeable with their job and there were several people who had an opportunity to stop it.
Neither the NTSB nor OSHA have requested or required that Disney not let people ride up front it is purely a policy choice on Disney's end and has absolutely nothing to do with it's classification as transportation. The reason the policy varies from DL to WDW is simply because each system is managed independently and policy choices from one don't have to be the same for the other. This is why for about a year or so after september 11th DL did not load the front but WDW did.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Just because you have an opinion does not mean it cannot be questioned and/or discussed. The basic point is that, to many, the basis for your opinion does not make a logical connection to your opinion. Comments about distracted drivers appear to come from misinformation, not a more full understanding of what happened that night.
I agree completely
Riding upfront with the pilot was a wonderful experience not only for my
children but for my elderly mother and aunt. It's a shame this will not be
a perk for the general population. :brick:
Disney's not saying anything. If they ever do, it'll probably just start happening one day, no announcement, no fanfare... But I personally doubt it ever will be allowed again, too much liability.
Riding upfront with the pilot was a wonderful experience not only for my
children but for my elderly mother and aunt. It's a shame this will not be
a perk for the general population. :brick:
Disney doesn't get to just arbitrarily decide if something is not a transport system (and in the terms of this thread, a common carrier). The law decides. And in certain cases, a judge makes the determination. In 2005 the CA Supreme Court declared amusement park rides as common carriers, which increased the liability of park owners. A determination was going to be made in FL with respect to the monorail, but the case settled before the judge could rule. In fact, Disney argued it wasn't, because it was a private system for resort guests only. But as we saw, the NTSB saw fit to investigate the monorail accident, though it's not clear to me if that's because a detrmination was in fact made prior to the incident, or Disney begrudgenly allowed it because of the PR disaster just waiting to happen if they refused to cooperate.
s8film40
Well-Known Member
Niether the NTSB nor OSHA really have the authority to tell Disney how to operate. They can make recommendations and OSHA has done this but Disney does not have to follow them. As a government agency their purpose is to enforce existing laws not create rules for theme parks.
Tom
Beta Return
Correct. If it's not a law, they can't be forced to do anything. However, if OSHA or NTSB makes recommendations, and you don't follow them and then someone else tragic happens....party's over.
s8film40
Well-Known Member
Yes this is why Disney has followed all the recommendations, however there was never a recommendation to not load the front, this was purely Disney's choice.
Nowhere in my post did I state or imply that they did have that authority. Though if they find Disney is operating contrary to the law, they can enforce the law by levying fines. And these agencies CAN be empowered to create laws (regulations).
I was merely trying to distinguish between a common carrier and an attraction, and that Disney, just because it operates the monorail, doesn't get to decide if it is one or the other. Only the law can do that. And in my quick internet search, there has been no definite ruling. As a common carrier, Disney's liabilty increases significantly, diminishing the assumption of risk one takes by riding theme park rides.
Naturally, Disney claims that it is a transportation system, but since it is privately owned and not available to anyone, it isn't a common carrier. The government, in a previous case, that while it is operated privately, the public has easy enough access to the system to make it a common carrier. That particular case was settled before a determination was made.
I used the monorail accident as an example because the NTSB was involved in the investigation, and posited the question on whether or not their involvement was the result of a positive determination that the monorail is a common carrier OR that Disney simply cooperated because it would make a PR nightmare even worse by refusing.
s8film40
Well-Known Member
I see, yes I agree, The point I was trying to make was that the classification of the monorail whether it be Disney's internal classification or a government classification has no bearing on the policy to not allow people to ride up front, it's purely Disney's choice for both systems. The two systems have a history of inconsistent policies.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Part of turning the Mark Vs into the Mark VIIs was each train getting entirely new noses. I would not be surprised if these new noses are designed to better withstand a collision than the older Mark VI noses.
darthokeefe
New Member
Real reason people should not be in the front car of the Monorail....if it happened once it can happen twice
http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/23039492/detail.html
look at these and picture your loved ones in that car....Its a chance that does not need to be taken
http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/23039492/detail.html
look at these and picture your loved ones in that car....Its a chance that does not need to be taken
googilycub
Active Member
With your logic, one could post pictures of car crashes and claim that no one should ever ride in a car. You could even post pictures of collapsed roofs adn claim that one should never step inside a building. :brick:
Tom
Beta Return
Not exactly. It's safe to ride in cars (today) because they're extremely safe and the passenger cabins are, for the most part, well protected. And it's safe to be in buildings that were designed and built properly.
The OSHA photos reveal that the monorail cabs aren't designed for collisions of any kind, and thus, aren't actually safe for people to ride in since there is ALWAYS the risk of a front-end collision.
If they completely eliminate the possibility of a front-end collision, then it wouldn't matter if the nose cones were made out of paper, because there would be no need for protection. But as it stands, even today, there is still the risk of a front-end collision simply because more than one train runs on a single track (just like there IS always the risk of two real trains colliding, which I'm sure you're aware of).
s8film40
Well-Known Member
If there is a chance it could happen again than the pilots shouldn't be allowed up there either.
If you look at the photos of the fire on the silver monorail than you could just as easily come to the same conclusion that guests shouldn't be allowed to ride in the cars either.
Accidents happen the best you can do to prevent them is learn from them and try to correct areas that may have contributed to the accident. If Disney isn't allowing guests up front because they expect another accident than they are intentionally putting their employees in what they feel is a risky situation.
stuart
Well-Known Member
Well said Sir, that has to be, along with that of Googilycub, one of the best and most sensible posts I've read on here in quite some time - especially relating to issue of monorail / bus safety.
I hope they do once again allow up front riding, and when they do, i'll quite happily ride up front.