Monorail Expansion

[wannab@dis]

Unfortunately when it comes to construction materials standard inflation numbers go out the window in a big way. Not only to labor rate rise at a rate much higher than inflation as you suggested but cost of building materials can skyrocket to insane level. In the last 5 years the cost of lumber has more than doubled and in some cases steel and concrete have tripled or quadrupled. When you look at a 35 year time span the $50,000,000 per mile starts to seem possible. Also supply had dropped on both steel and concrete so less common forms of concrete, such as the super high strength concrete used for monorail rails simply aren't made.

If Disney was to due a full blown expansion of the monorail track to all resorts and parks they would more than likely need to set up a temporary or permanent concrete manufacturing plant as well as a forming shop.

No doubt that materials have skyrocketed, but I read an article not long ago that put the biggest onus for new construction costs primarily on labor issues and red tape --- not to mention horrible management of large projects. (The Big Dig)

 

[imagineer boy]

While I'm not a fan of monorail expansion (I'd like to see something more creative and modern), there is a big problem with a bottom line mentality at a company like Disney.

Imagine how much money Disney could save if they didn't theme the hotels. Simple, concrete buildings would be just as functional as the current resorts. Think how much money they would save and how much they would add to the bottom line.

Does Animal Kingdom need a huge tree? Couldn't they have housed "It's Tough to be a Bug" in a much smaller, less expensive theater?

What about the castle? Just a big waste, isn't it?

Disney is all about creating a fantasy world where things are better than the real world. If they did away with all the things I listed above, how much would their bottom line improve? Maybe a little, on paper short term, but long term it would take away the very product that Disney is selling which isn't amusement park rides, but a whole fantasy world.

When people think of Disney World, they don't think of an amusement park. They think of a clean, friendly, futuristic perfect world. The Monorail has been a key to creating that impression (how many brochures have you seen that feature the monorail prominently?) and if they want to continue the image that attracts people year after year, a modern transportation system would be a big step in the right direction.

Great post. That's what I've been trying to say for years. A monorail can be done, nothing is impossible. It will be expensive, yes, but there's ways of cutting down costs without getting too expensive. Such as only having a short system. Instead of traveling around the whole resort, just have a monrail station built at a new TTC at DTD where it can branch off to MGM and AK and maybe stop at a couple resorts like maybe the boarwalk.

 

[mmssbrg2]

Brian's post here gave some pretty good real info., numbers, analysis based on the Las Vegas project and some expert's comments:

The problem with using the $88 million/mile figure from this Vegas project as a frame of reference is that there are seven platforms on the 4 mile stretch. Considering that the $88 million/mile figure includes the cost of 1.75 platforms per mile, those figures kind of skew the actual cost of an expansion at WDW. Not that it wouldn't be expensive, but we're comparing apples to oranges here...

 

[dcartwr]

In the perfect world, this is what you have connecting all of the resorts together and then you simply select your destination and away you go. You would have almost no waiting times and could get to the parks and back again when you wanted. The biggest concern would be the mad rush after the fireworks, but it has so much potential. As near as I can figure, the cost is around $10 million per mile (£3million and £5million per km of track), and the cost is 3 times that if elevated, which you would want to maximize safety. This is how you would ensure people stayed on site and never left.

http://www.atsltd.co.uk/

 

[mmssbrg2]

In the perfect world, this is what you have connecting all of the resorts together and then you simply select your destination and away you go. You would have almost no waiting times and could get to the parks and back again when you wanted. The biggest concern would be the mad rush after the fireworks, but it has so much potential. As near as I can figure, the cost is around $10 million per mile (£3million and £5million per km of track), and the cost is 3 times that if elevated, which you would want to maximize safety. This is how you would ensure people stayed on site and never left.

http://www.atsltd.co.uk/

PRT seems like it would be a more cost effective and efficient way to go. It fulfills Walt's People Mover vision as well. However, I would venture to guess that it is not likely that we will see something like this installed anytime soon...

Here's a link to another PRT company based here in the Twin Cities:
http://www.taxi2000.com/

 

[kaos]

Here is the way that better on-property transportation helps make money... It keeps the tourist.guests encased solely in WDW.

With the need for a car or bus to get to other areas of the resort, guests are more likely to motor over to other areas. That is the main principle behind the Magical Express benefit... to keep the guest from renting a vehicle and exploring other areas of Orlando.

Think about it this way... Better/more futuristic transportation options keep the guests money where Disney wants it... on property

Oh, and there is no charge to ride the monorail- not sure who thought there was, but I read it somewhere in the numerous pages of the thread. The monorail and bus system are for guests staying on-site, OR those guests that have admission passes for the day... but they never really check. :animwink:

 

[wdwishes2005]

Great post. That's what I've been trying to say for years. A monorail can be done, nothing is impossible. It will be expensive, yes, but there's ways of cutting down costs without getting too expensive. Such as only having a short system. Instead of traveling around the whole resort, just have a monrail station built at a new TTC at DTD where it can branch off to MGM and AK and maybe stop at a couple resorts like maybe the boarwalk.

The castle and Tree serve a purpose. Weenies as Walt called them......

 

[wdwishes2005]

Cool!

On a somewhat tangential note: I've been to trade shows (the Consumer Electronics Show jumps to mind) at which companies have spent huge amounts of money to show their latest, greatest technology.

I have to believe that if Innoventions was managed a little more agressively, they could get companies like Microsoft, Sony, Apple, Honda etc. to pay for the priveledge of showing us much more spectacular displays of their latest technology than the weak showing we currently get at Innoventions.

I'd like to see somebody make an effort to make EPCOT THE place for companies to unveil/display/demonstrate their latest technologies.

Sony and Apple have spectacular technology? :lol:
sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[garyhoov]

PRT seems like it would be a more cost effective and efficient way to go. It fulfills Walt's People Mover vision as well. However, I would venture to guess that it is not likely that we will see something like this installed anytime soon...

Here's a link to another PRT company based here in the Twin Cities:
http://www.taxi2000.com/

I've been following them for a long time, and I was hoping something like that would be possible/practical.

Unfortunately, their website went dead a couple years ago, and I'm assuming they ran into difficulties.

The problem with PRT seems to be that, while it sounds good on paper, I don't know that a large scale system has ever been successfully implemented.

. . . and PRT has the same problem as Test Track. If one car breaks down, the whole system goes down.

I wonder if Disney has learned anything from Test Track that would allow them to be the first to successfully implement a large scale system. I wonder if they would feel confident enough to take the risk.

 

[DarkMeasures]

I've been following them for a long time, and I was hoping something like that would be possible/practical.

Unfortunately, their website went dead a couple years ago, and I'm assuming they ran into difficulties.

The problem with PRT seems to be that, while it sounds good on paper, I don't know that a large scale system has ever been successfully implemented.

. . . and PRT has the same problem as Test Track. If one car breaks down, the whole system goes down.

I wonder if Disney has learned anything from Test Track that would allow them to be the first to successfully implement a large scale system. I wonder if they would feel confident enough to take the risk.

Actually, the problem with PRT is that it looks rediculously stupid.

Of course all problems would be fixed with breakdowns if you moved to a two lane system.

 

[garyhoov]

Actually, the problem with PRT is that it looks rediculously stupid.

Of course all problems would be fixed with breakdowns if you moved to a two lane system.

I think Skytran/Unimodal's system looks pretty good.

And at 100 mph, it would definitely blend the attraction/transportation functions.

http://www.unimodal.com/

 

[garyhoov]

And I said this over 4 years ago, but I think it's still valid. Put a Skytran system between EPCOT and MGM. If it works . . . great! Expand the system to other areas. If there are problems, you've still got a cool attraction and futuristic links between all parks except for Animal Kingdom.

 

[PhilharMagician]

I see all this info about using Bombardier, Toyota and a company out of Hawaii. Why can't Disney just locally contract out the work and then GC the job themselves. Of course the monorail vehicles would come from Bombardier, but site work and infrastrucure of the monorail system you would think Disney Imagineering could handle.

 

[PhilharMagician]

Is that "1 million per mile in 71" an actual fact? Seems hard to believe or it may not include the TTC, maintenance areas, equipment or the actual monorails... just the track.

Anyway... adjusted only for inflation, it's $5M. Doesn't include all the messed up unions, labor costs or red tape that now associates large projects.

This number was quoted on the History Channel on Modern Marvels Walt Disney World. I have also seen this number in other documentation, but I just cannot remember where I read it.

 

[metscool]

This number was quoted on the History Channel on Modern Marvels Walt Disney World. I have also seen this number in other documentation, but I just cannot remember where I read it.

Does anyone know when it will be on again. I keep on missing it over and over again. I would like to know when.

 

[PhilharMagician]

Later this week there will be a few Disney specials on the Travel Channel. I have them marked for record. I will try to post info tonight or tomorrow for all that may be interested (under a new general post).

The Modern Marvels I have not seen in a while. I just happen to have it recorded on my DVR and watched it last week.

 

[majortom1981]

The price is for the supports right?

Why is the monorail so expensive to build.

Isnt it basically a train with the tires running inwards ?

Is it because of the cement track? IF that is the case wouldnt that make a regular train too expensive too since that would need the cement so it doesnt sink into the ground?

 

[TimeTrip]

I did always want to see a price analysis if the monorail was run along the ground instead of being elevated. Alot of people want to say the monorail is too pricey compared to light rail, completely ignoring the fact that the estimates for monorail are for an elevated system. Noone said it had to be that way

 

[majortom1981]

hmm

Wouldnt an elevated monorail be the same price as an elevated train system since they would be both concrete?

 

[Master Yoda]

Why is the monorail so expensive to build.

Isnt it basically a train with the tires running inwards ?

Is it because of the cement track? IF that is the case wouldnt that make a regular train too expensive too since that would need the cement so it doesnt sink into the ground?

A variety of reasons. The concrete used is not your run of the mill concrete. It is a very high strength and expensive concrete surrounding a steel beam. An elevated track also adds additional expense. Not only do the columns add to the expense but by the nature of the soil requires much larger columns that are placed more frequently. Florida has little to no bedrock so these columns must be wide enough and deep enough to support the track and train on friction alone. Going to a non elevated track just trades one set of expenses for another. The problem of soil stability still has to be dealt with not to mention you would have the inevitable problem of trains crossing vehicle roads. This would in many cases require overpasses to be built. Lastly the monorail trains are not a mass produced item so they are more expensive to build.