Monorail Expansion?

[jmarc63]

This whole Monorail thing is really sad. I first heard of the expansion rumor back in '93 from my dad and at first I thought he was wrong since it never happened. I originaly herd of five senearios for the track alignment some to the airport some to downtown orlando.
Then to start finding rummor sites that were discussing it really started to bother me . especially since I am a large stockholder and have been since I was a little tyke in the '60s

FYI there were also several track alignments for the original loop up at MK and the hotels. The one i'm glad made it was the comtempoary, originaly walt fought with the construction designers about going thru the grand concource with the monorail, the construction folks wanted a station like at the Poly or Grand Floridian, I'm glad it survived. Some hade the track going thru tommrowland like Disneyland and connecting with a never built hotel on the northside of baylake.


Monorails rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MrPromey]

Re: ok one last time

Originally posted by freediverdude
Ok you guys still don't seem to get it, so I'll try to explain one more time. Yes, currently there is minimal park-to-park transport demand, but with the system I discussed, that would change radically. Yes, there would be monorails only going between the parks and DD, but since the buses would be eliminated, people would be using them to get to the peoplemover station they needed to be at in order to get to their resort, so the interpark traffic would be much much higher. In regards to the 1000 people at a time, to explain this again, the 1000 people would NOT be getting off of a single train at a time. In other words, I'm not talking about a single train that can hold 1000 people. I'm talking about a single train that can hold 500 people, having two tracks going in between each park, and two trains per track- one loading/unloading at each end of each track at the same time, so that a new train could probably arrive at each station every 5 minutes all day long. Therefore each double stretch of track in between each park could probably unload as many as 1000 people in each 10 minute period, maybe 15 at the most. A higher capacity or double peoplemover would probably have to be built to connect the value resorts with their nearest monorail station. Since the MK and Epcot would be the hubs and have monorails arriving from two different places, those parks would have 4 monorails arriving in each 10-15 minute period, and the timing would have to be spaced out so that two cars wouldn't be unloading at exactly the same time. The one valid point about this plan that I feel has been raised so far is the capacity of the park entrances to accomodate this. A new larger turnstyle entrance would have to be built at the MK, and Epcot's would have to be enlarged somewhat, although they have a pretty large entrance already. The whole front of both of these parks would have to be redone to accomodate all this, but I think it could be done. I still don't see anything really wrong with this plan if people really thought about how it's going to work.

Still, with this plan, the only thing that can conceivably be better is the elimination of busses. Even assuming that money were no object (because it sounds like your plan would go well over the billion mark - more than it costs to build a new theme park) you are still creating more confusion and less of a direct route for guests. That means strollers will have to be folded twice, wheelchair ramps will have to be dropped twice, people will have to get up and down twice, people will have to wait twice, and you will be creating excessive traffic in an area (park to park) that currently can be accommodated in most cases by (much smaller by comparison) busses. Plus there is that whole transfer thing and the fact that some monorail stations (like the one closest to the value resorts) would be much, much busier than the rest. There is also the logistics of how this would actually be built with the current road systems and building placement but I don't know enough about exact layouts to talk about that. I'm guessing that quite a few overpasses for cars would have to be built to accommodate the peoplemovers unless there were a new kind developed with enough power to go up hills for their own overpasses because having an elevated track for all of that would be both ugly and super-expensive. There are also some areas that the monorails can't be built on. Monorail track is not like roadway. Pressure is not dispersed evenly as trains pass along the track, it is centered on central pylons, in Florida, where the land is just about all limestone underneath, that can be tough to deal with. In some cases, two feet of limestone can be crushed down to as little as six inches. I'm not saying that's a reason not to do it but while you may get your plan working logistically (even if it is less efficient than the current one) financially, it would be a nightmare... And Disney doesn't seem to be having trouble filling resorts due to transportation issues. We have seen a lul over the last year due to the economy and 9/11 but Disney still has the highest occupancy rate of any hotel or resort in the Orlando area. In order to convince a board or stockholders that something like this would be needed, you'd have to explain what kind of benefit this would be to the company? How would it benefit the guy with $10,000 invested either in the short term or long term? Would it be cool? Would it have "wow"? Yes but so would a lot of other things that are beyond realistic cost measures and at the end of the day when guests are heading home, I tend to think they would agree. I mean, people will go home remembering Splash Mountain. Do you think more than that will go home with fond memories of Disney transportation? Considering that we could have a dozen or more Splash Mountains for the cost of that transportation (both in initial construction and probably even more in upkeep) one would hope so... Another thing, splash mountain does help disney because it's behind a gait that you pay $50 a person to get to and they can run commercials and use it as a promotion to draw new and return guests. A new improved transportation system just doesn't should as exciting as ToT, does it?.. And that's assuming that we don't tell the guests that it may take longer to get from point A to point B and that it will require more work for them to do so...

You people have to remember that this goes beyond the scope of our discussion. Tyler said it wasn't about money and I still think it's because it never got far enough through the concept stages for money to become an issue but at some point it would be about money because Disney isn't made of it and then there is the whole guest issue. Everyone's plan makes perfect sense to the person that comes up with it. Tyler has been saying all along that people get totally confused with the current system which in most cases is simpler than yours or just about any other that has been proposed. If we are just talking about pretend - you know, like if "I" owned Disney, what "I" think would be cool (You know, like Rollercoaster Tycoon talk ) All of these plans sound really cool but I think most guests value convenience over "wow" and after the second or third day, I'm pretty sure just about all would be on the convenience side. Your plan, while more convenient than some is still a fair amount more complex than the one currently in place and if you wanted a chance of really having a replacement for the current one, it would either need to be as convenient and easy as the current one or more so.

 

[JLW11Hi]

How fast can monorails go?

 

[JLW11Hi]

I think that the monorails are currently doing the most that they can do for the WDW resort, and I think they are doing a great job of it. The monorails are probably more efficient in some areas than others, and my guess is that they are being very efficient where they are now. They transport guests around the Seven Seas Lagoon, and they do so probably faster than the buses would, just because they have to go around a lake. The monorais have to too, but they probably do it faster. The best example I can think of is going to the Grand Floridian from the MK. (The monorails go both clockwise and counterclockwies, right? I can't remember) The monorail is definetly your best bet there (or the boat launch). And the monorail to Epcot does let people get there faster than takling the roads, since it is so far away. But besides that, I don't think the monorail is really necessary for anything else at the moment.

Another thing, splash mountain does help disney because it's behind a gait that you pay $50 a person to get to

Mabey they should put a smaller scale monorail system in one of the parks?

 

[garyhoov]

One issue that hasn't been discussed yet is the number of stops that would be required with the proposed systems.

Currently, if I stay at All Star Movies, and I want to go to Magic Kingdom, I get on a bus and I'm there in 15 minutes. A monorail would have to stop at All Star Movies, All Star Sports, Corronado Springs, Blizzard Beach, Swan, Dolphin, Beach Club, then I'd transfer and probably stop a few more places on the way to Magic Kingdom.

Anyone who seriously wants us to consider their proposal is going to have to map out specific stops so we can really see what we are talking about. I downloaded a map, and started to play around in Paintbrush, but I couldn't make anything work.

 

[Donald_Quackers]

Originally posted by JLW11Hi
How fast can monorails go?

I believe the Mark VI monorails used at WDW can go 50-60 mph, but the operational limit that they impose is about 40 mph. If this is incorrect, please let me know, but that's what I know.

And as much as I would like to see an expansion of the monorail, I feel that it probably won't happen. I still hope for the day that it does, however. :slurp:

Needless to say, the fact it isn't happening never dampens my spirits every time I ride it. And I plan on eventually going to Disneyland and riding their monorail as well. It looks so cool going over the "Golden Gate".

 

[plpeters70]

Originally posted by garyhoov
Currently, if I stay at All Star Movies, and I want to go to Magic Kingdom, I get on a bus and I'm there in 15 minutes. A monorail would have to stop at All Star Movies, All Star Sports, Corronado Springs, Blizzard Beach, Swan, Dolphin, Beach Club, then I'd transfer and probably stop a few more places on the way to Magic Kingdom.

Maybe a few of the resorts would have to be left out of the monorail loops?

Also, I would leave the water parks and Wide World of Sports to alternate means of transporatation - mainly buses. My main concern is linking up the 4 theme parks to most of the hotels by a monorail system. I personally like my idea of a large "theme park" loop, with smaller resort loops -- but I'm sure there are many ways to address the problem. At least that way there would only be one transfer required -- and if the large theme park loop was automated and efficient enough, then travel time might even be decreased.

 

[WDWspider]

Originally posted by plpeters70


Maybe a few of the resorts would have to be left out of the monorail loops?

Also, I would leave the water parks and Wide World of Sports to alternate means of transporatation - mainly buses. My main concern is linking up the 4 theme parks to most of the hotels by a monorail system. I personally like my idea of a large "theme park" loop, with smaller resort loops -- but I'm sure there are many ways to address the problem. At least that way there would only be one transfer required -- and if the large theme park loop was automated and efficient enough, then travel time might even be decreased.

I must be going blind from all these posts, it took me four times reading your post before I realized that you had not said that Monorail time travel would be decreased. (Actually you have travel time).:dazzle:

 

[Invero]

Originally posted by jmarc63
they used a jet engine that was fueled by natural gas for the power generating plant on the west side of the property. and natural gas is a very clean fuel compared to desel fuel.

Has Disney replaced these engines with another source that less environmentaly frendly that natural gas?

That power plant still exists, but unfortunetly, it can no longer fill our power needs. Instead of building new plants, Disney found it actually is cheaper to outsource our power needs to Florida Power, and as such, that's what Disney now does.

Originally posted by jmarc63
What about Disney being a company that is a "GREEN" company that eisney touted in the early '90s, What every hapened with that concept????

Oh, yes, Disney is still very much a "GREEN" company... Just a different green... *sigh*

Originally posted by garyhoov
One issue that hasn't been discussed yet is the number of stops that would be required with the proposed systems.

Good point. And here's the key... Not only would it take longer because the monorail would make frequent and longer stops (in addition to a transfer)... because of the fixed guideway... What if the train fills up before it reaches its destination?

While the bus may not be "cool" we do have one thing... FLEXIBILITY. If my bus fills up before I've made all my stops, I can call Dispatch, and they'll send out another bus to take care of the rest of the pickups.

 

[plpeters70]

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi
Good point. And here's the key... Not only would it take longer because the monorail would make frequent and longer stops (in addition to a transfer)... because of the fixed guideway... What if the train fills up before it reaches its destination?

Why "longer" stops?? What if these were automated trains that only stoped for a very specific period of time - like the ones in Tokyo?? Wouldn't that cut down on time?

As for the trains filling up, I was kind of envisioning much larger trains than the ones currently used. The MK loop would have to stay the same, but the new resort loops could be constructed with larger trains, couldn't they??

 

[MrPromey]

Originally posted by plpeters70


Why "longer" stops?? What if these were automated trains that only stoped for a very specific period of time - like the ones in Tokyo?? Wouldn't that cut down on time?

As for the trains filling up, I was kind of envisioning much larger trains than the ones currently used. The MK loop would have to stay the same, but the new resort loops could be constructed with larger trains, couldn't they??

Longer trains means more people on them means more people getting on and off. Even if the number of people getting on and off at a single station did not increase by a whole heck of a lot, there are still the people waiting on the train that the people getting on and off have to navigate though. Whenever you increase the number of people that are all expected to do the same thing at exactly the same time - even when it's sitting still, you increase the likelihood of that not happening? Who that goes on a regular basis hasn't seem some kid jump off when they aren't supposed to? Those kinds of things cause delays and bigger trains result in more of these uncontrollable delays. (I'm sure there are other reasons but those would be my best guesses of the obvious problems) In any event, I'd feel sorry for whoever was at the last stop because most of them would be standing in the mornings or evenings...

Much larger trains would require much larger stations. Someone had come up with a figure on here of a train holding up to 1,000 people. That train would be 3 times the size of the ones currently in use. The new tracks would cost a fortune to build to be strong enough to support that much weight elevated, and it still could be expected that at peak times (park openings and closings) that trains would fill up.

Also, according to Fantasia Boi, one transfer is still one too many.

 

[jmarc63]

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi


That power plant still exists, but unfortunetly, it can no longer fill our power needs. Instead of building new plants, Disney found it actually is cheaper to outsource our power needs to Florida Power, and as such, that's what Disney now does.


Well I am not supprised, When they built WDW, central fla did not have the infrastructure to support the resort so they had to build everything for the resort. That is why they have the power plant to begin with any way. They were even thinking of building there own airport at one time to bring in guests since the old McCord airport( thats why orlando Int is coded on the bag tag as MCO for the original airport) wasn't expected to handel increased traffic, that is why there is that long strip of concreat that parralells World drive that they use now for bus staging. Infact on '71 they hade the only food distrubition commissary in central fla and was the first to have a 911 emergency system. I guess with Universal and seaworld comming, so when orlando caught up to the need to expand the infrastructure to meet tourists comming to Orlando. I guess it is now more cost evvective to outsource. In the beginning up till epcot being built everything Disney built wasdone by there own construction contracting division at WED, now I Guess everything is bid out for construction since everyone in the them park business is on par with Disney. God I miss thoes early years

 

[plpeters70]

Originally posted by MrPromey
The new tracks would cost a fortune to build to be strong enough to support that much weight elevated, and it still could be expected that at peak times (park openings and closings) that trains would fill up.

This is probably quite true - but I was kind of "blue skying" here, and wasn't really thinking about cost at the moment.

As for peak times, I was kind of thinking that they would stagger the park opening and closing time for the 4 parks - so that only one or two parks opened and closed at the same time. That way the large "theme park" loop wouldn't be as burdened. Plus, weight would be less on the resort loops too.

Originally posted by MrPromey
Also, according to Fantasia Boi, one transfer is still one too many.

Maybe, but I think people could handle one transfer - any more than that and you would be asking for real trouble.

I realize that this is all "pie-in-the-sky", but it is fun to dream up these concepts. It would definitely be to expensive to do all at once, but maybe not so bad if it was spread over a 10 year period. Perhaps they could slowly add the individual resort loops, and then eventually add the "theme park" loop -- sort of spread out the costs.

 

[garyhoov]

If I realistically think about my goals first (rather than thinking of a neat system and then trying to fit the system to my goals), I would say I am looking for (in order of importance):

1. Short Transit Time (including time spent waiting to board)

2. Non Polluting

3. Unique

4. Fun

Notice that I don't include cost. I am willing to pay a reasonable cost as long as I am getting something for it. Based on the priorities I have listed, I would say the best system (of those discussed) would be an alternative fuel bus system on dedicated pathways. This system would certainly be lacking in the "fun" catagory, but when I really think about what I want, I have to put getting there quickly at the top of the list. I will make up for any fun I miss at the park.

I'm sure other people have priorities that are very diffirent from mine. I would be interested in seeing other people's priorities. Up to now we have been imagining neat systems and then discussing if they can or can't do certain things rather than establishing goals first and then trying to determine the best way to meet those goals. I'm sure some people will say that their one and only goal is that it is a "Monorail".

Determining what people want could potentially lead us to a solution no one has even imagined yet (maybe that slingshot idea still has legs). Let me know what you think.

 

[MrPromey]

Originally posted by plpeters70



I realize that this is all "pie-in-the-sky", but it is fun to dream up these concepts.

Well, now that I know exactly where you are coming from I can't really argue with anything, can I?

 

[Invero]

Okay... I have time for a quick reply before I head off for work...

Longer stops would occur because you have larger trains. During peak times, you have more people getting in and out... During slow times, you have those folks who will walk alllllllllllll the way down to the end of the train looking for the best seat. My estimation for the average dwell time for an expanded Disney train would be 2 minutes for peak time, and 5 minutes for non-peak time.


Also, longer trains mean larger beams and larger stations. A full size monorail capable of holding 1000 people... that's a *LARGE* train. At thatsize, you get to the point where it's so huge, it looses the magic and becomes impersonal. (In addition to not being able to fit in a lot of places)

As stated before, the Contemporary cannot handle larger trains, as such the guests would have to transfer at the TTC and board the already maxed out current system, creating huge lines, and angry guests.

As for staggering the park closing times... that's not something Transportation has any power over. There will be times when Epcot, MK, and Studios will all close at 9pm.

And in regards to transfers... 0 transfers is the goal. It's EASY, and it's quick. Total travel time, you want no more than 20 minutes on average. (Most of our routes are 13-15)


If someone can design a transportation system that takes the following rules into account... then we might have a winner.


1.) It must be able to be flexible. Traffic flows often change. It must be able to shrink and grow with demand.
2.) It must be able to handle the mass crowds of a park exit with speed and efficiency.
3.) It must be Direct. All transfers must be kept to a bare minimum. All resorts must have direct access to the 4 main theme parks.
4.) It must not interfere with the theming of the resort. Any transportation system must blend in, and not distract from the theming.
5.) A transportation station must be a maximum of a 5 minute walk from all guest rooms.
6.) It must meet all federal ADA laws (Americans with Disabilites Act). However, not only must it be accessible, it must be EASILY accessible.
7.) It must be quick and efficient. Guests must be able to travel between resort and theme park in less than 20 minutes.
8.) It must come frequently. Guests should not have to wait more than 15 minutes for transportation.
9.) It must be Cost Feasible. By this, I mean, not outlandishly expensive, and within reason. It also must be paid by the resorts that it will service.
10.) The priority areas are All Stars and Pop Century... the Value resorts, and the ones that have the lesser room rates. Secondary concern areas would be Port Orleans, and Caribbean Beach.

 

[plpeters70]

Originally posted by Fantasia Boi
During slow times, you have those folks who will walk alllllllllllll the way down to the end of the train looking for the best seat. My estimation for the average dwell time for an expanded Disney train would be 2 minutes for peak time, and 5 minutes for non-peak time.

I want to ask this once again, what if these monorails were AUTOMATED like the new monorails in Tokyo -- meaning they have a set time limit in the station and have automatic doors that open and close at specific times?? Wouldn't this cut down on the time it takes to load?

I believe in Tokyo they let a certain amount of people into a "loading area" that has automatic gates. When the monorail arrives, the gates and doors open to allow people through - and then close after a certain period of time. Perhaps this sort of system could be implemented here to cut down on wait times??

 

[freediverdude]

transport plan

Well, you guys are still referencing this nonexistent 1000 person monorail from my plan, so I guess I'll stop posting, but for the 3rd time I wasn't suggesting a 1000 person train. Fantasia Boi is correct that they would have to completely redo the front of the MK for my plan to work, although I don't see why they couldn't keep the original monorail loops for just the parking lot and CR and PR and GF, and have these other monorails be separate. As for there not being enough capacity, my plan calls for there to be two sets of two monorail lines going in different directions out of MK and Epcot (in other words, two complete lines going from MK to AK, two complete lines going from MK to Epcot, two complete lines going from Epcot to MGM). I am suggesting cars that are roughly double the average train now, and would hold an average of 500 people per train. If you timed it just right, probably every 5 minutes you could have a train pull up on every track, if there were two trains on each track(one loading/unloading at each end). Therefore, you could have the capacity to accomodate 1000 people per track per 10 minutes. If there were 4 tracks at MK like I proposed, this would be up to 4000 people per 10 minutes or 24000 an hour. So you could probably exit the whole MK in an hour or so. Do the buses have this kind of capacity at 60 people per bus? I doubt it. 10 buses could only remove about 600 people, and then they have to wait another 20 minutes for the next $&%& one. I'm sorry, but I don't buy the argument of not enough capacity if it was done right. The answer to the front gate problem would be to build all this out in front of the MK, possibly taking up more lake space (but it would be kinda cool to look overhead on the boat and see the monorail going over you, or look down from the monorail going over the boat). Any more arguments? LOL

 

[TURKEY]

Re: transport plan

Originally posted by freediverdude
Do the buses have this kind of capacity at 60 people per bus? I doubt it. 10 buses could only remove about 600 people, and then they have to wait another 20 minutes for the next $&%& one.

I don't think that there is ever a 20 minute wait for the next bus when parks close.

 

[freediverdude]

are you kidding??

Turkey Leg Boy, you have GOT to be kidding me. I personally have waited over 45 minutes to get buses to Caribbean Beach before, as have many other people I know. Especially the value and moderates, their bus stops are always mobbed and can't even pick up everyone there when they stop! Why do you think they have that "back and forth" cattle line going in front of the bus stops in some places? The buses are noisy, jarring, smoke spewing cattle cars that can't handle the type of crowds at park exits and openings.