Monorail Accident

[brent2124]

From what wikipedia says that even though you need permission an op can use the override just by holding down a button.

Wikipedia can be edited by anyone though. Just Sayin:shrug:

 

[jt04]

Pi$$ off Conundrum. I'm tired of you. You come into this thread rabbling on already wanting to blame Disney's maintenance, and then you yell at the CM for blacking a view of someone who was trying to get as much of the carnage on film as possible, and now you're going off on a freedom of speech tangent? Give me a break, and get off these boards. I'm tired of your constant negativity. Someone died here, and all you want to do is point fingers.

I'll probably get in trouble for this post, but I honestly don't care.

You are exactly right. The guy is as excited about this as he was with the layoffs news if not more because he thinks it validates his points about management. This was not a day or opportunity to make that point. It's sickening.

And I apologize for conjecturing about what may have been the cause earlier. I never knew how complicated the system is and should not have commented.

I'm out of this thread until the investigation is complete.

Thanks Sirgoofy, for making the point that was bothering me all night. Even while I was away from the boards.

Peace to all.

 

[board57796]

So the system cant detect a switch problem then ? I know on modern coasters if a switch doesnt work right and either doesnt switch at all or switchers cars to the wrong track the whole ride shuts down and is a pain to bring back up.

I really think if your right then this could mean a long closure for the system depending on how the state deals with it. I know if this happened in New Jersey the system would be down until a better way to stop this from happening again was done.

Id rather see the monorail have a long down time to create a fix for this then to see it put back on fast and have this happen again.

*DISCLAIMER: MY OPINION*

I don't believe they were ever switched, from what it sounds like. And by that I mean someone missed a step, either Central did not ask them to be moved, or shop forgot to move them. But, to answer your question, when a train is near a switch (as Pink at Pylon 30 would have been), when the "circuit" was broken by the switch moving, the train loses power. That could have been another sign to the Pilot of Pink that a switch hadn't taken place: if the train never lost power, the switch never moved.

Once the switch is in place, power is restored, because the circuit is complete again.

 

[EpcotFanForever]

And so IF this speculation is true (and it is very plausible), then the key flaw in the system is that it depends on human communication to verify that the switch to the spur actually happens. Both pilots were doing exactly as they were trained, and it seems likely that neither made an error. Central may in fact have made the right calls, but somehow the communication to actually switch the spur broke down.

The flaw in the system was that there was no automatic way to verify the spur switched. It had worked just fine ever since Epcot opened, and there was no reason to expect failure. Yet it is not very safe to ask pilots to drive trains in reverse. A pilot at the back of Pink would have solved everything. So would an onboard system to verify the spur location. Expect a "two pilot rule" for all reverse operations. Also it is a terrible idea to override all safety systems.

IF this is true, WDW has a liability problem, as their safety analysis should have foreseen this failure. What is likely is that fatigue from long hours (due to staff downsizing) led to a missed communication, and this in turn caused the accident. One can be assured that this problem will be fixed, but the bigger issue is one of providing enough staff to avoid these problems down the road.

Just my humble opinion...

 

[majortom1981]

And so IF this speculation is true (and it is very plausible), then the key flaw in the system is that it depends on human communication to verify that the switch to the spur actually happens. Both pilots were doing exactly as they were trained, and it seems likely that neither made an error. Central may in fact have made the right calls, but somehow the communication to actually switch the spur broke down.

The flaw in the system was that there was no automatic way to verify the spur switched. It had worked just fine ever since Epcot opened, and there was no reason to expect failure. Yet it is not very safe to ask pilots to drive trains in reverse. A pilot at the back of Pink would have solved everything. So would an onboard system to verify the spur location. Expect a "two pilot rule" for all reverse operations. Also it is a terrible idea to override all safety systems.

IF this is true, WDW has a liability problem, as their safety analysis should have foreseen this failure. What is likely is that fatigue from long hours (due to staff downsizing) led to a missed communication, and this in turn caused the accident. One can be assured that this problem will be fixed, but the bigger issue is one of providing enough staff to avoid these problems down the road.

Just my humble opinion...

I agree with you . I dont know how much a monorail differs from a coaster but i think a system for detecting what a switch does should be installed if it is not. Central should know what position each switch is in and if it does not do what its supposed to everything should be ground to a halt without the pilots of the monorails being able to override.

Like i said i don t know how the monorails systems work in detail so maybe board can help us on that.(to the best of his ability and what he can tell us).

 

[disney9752]

I dont know what issues might have been occuring recenty with the trains. I rode pink during my visit in may. For the first 3 stops we made, when we were leaving the station the pilot had to radio centralt hat a certain sensor was not working properly & would maintain visual clearance. May the young man RIP doing a job he loved.

 

[LandBoatride]

Thanks for all the info board57796. Very informative.

So it's been a long day of work at WDW and Im trying to catch up on all this. From what I hear you saying ( and please correct where I am wrong), you would get the same warnings (MPS?) about approaching another train as you would other "uncommon things" such as a hole in the track (due to a switchgate being used). My question is why would this be the same "generic" warning taht you have to MAPO override? Why not be specific and have a separate "approaching another train" warning, and a "gap in the track ahead" warning?

I understand they rely on visuals (from both central and drivers) but still. My less sophisticated Honda can tell the difference between, for example, low oil and low tire pressure and gives me separate warnings for each. Any insight?

Hope this made sense.

p.s. It goes without saying that my condolences go out to all involved on this very sad day, and I ask this question only in terms of curiosity and not to assign blame.

 

[board57796]

I agree with you . I dont know how much a monorail differs from a coaster but i think a system for detecting what a switch does should be installed if it is not. Central should know what position each switch is in and if it does not do what its supposed to everything should be ground to a halt without the pilots of the monorails being able to override.

Like i said i don t know how the monorails systems work in detail so maybe board can help us on that.(to the best of his ability and what he can tell us).

There is a power grid in both Central and Shop showing which sections of beam are electrified. Unfortunately, Central was unoccupied at the time of the incident.

 

[lazyboy97o]

From what wikipedia says that even though you need permission an op can use the override just by holding down a button.

From what I could gather according to posts earlier in this thread, any pilot who engages the override without authorization will not end the day as a monorail pilot.

 

[board57796]

Thanks for all the info board57796. Very informative.

So it's been a long day of work at WDW and Im trying to catch up on all this. From what I hear you saying ( and please correct where I am wrong), you would get the same warnings (MPS?) about approaching another train as you would other "uncommon things" such as a hole in the track (due to a switchgate being used). My question is why would this be the same "generic" warning taht you have to MAPO override? Why not be specific and have a separate "approaching another train" warning, and a "gap in the track ahead" warning?

I understand they rely on visuals (from both central and drivers) but still. My less sophisticated Honda can tell the difference between, for example, low oil and low tire pressure and gives me separate warnings for each. Any insight?

Hope this made sense.

p.s. It goes without saying that my condolences go out to all involved on this very sad day, and I ask this question only in terms of curiosity and not to assign blame.

The simple answer is: Yes, they are the exact same warning (Red light, loud beeping, train emergency stops.)

The longer answer is: It depends. For example...

The MAPO goes from GREEN>AMBER>RED. Green means the track is all clear ahead, keep on tr__________. AMBER means there is a train ahead and youd better stop at the next holdpoint (we have to memorize them all.) Red means, youve gone too far, I'm stopping this train and you're getting in trouble. So, if I receive an Amber and then a Red, I can safely assume it is due to a train. HOWEVER, if I am cruising along with a Green and all of the sudden it goes straight to Red, with no Amber, I can "assume" it was a fault or that the beam has lost power.

This plays a part in what happened last night: the pilot in Pink, assuming the track behind him was clear, with no switches open, the pilot would have had his finger holding MAPO Override (as instructed) but would have had either a Green or Amber MBS, which would have thrown up a red flag in my head that something was not normal. Normally when you switch the train into reverse to cross Switch 9 you IMMEDIATELY get a RED MBS, however Purple was far enough behind it would have been green or amber, and turned Red as the trains approached. The same would have been repeated in Purple. As the trains entered the "Red" zone, they would both have been in Override, disabling the EStop.

 

[majortom1981]

The simple answer is: Yes, they are the exact same warning (Red light, loud beeping, train emergency stops.)

The longer answer is: It depends. For example...

The MAPO goes from GREEN>AMBER>RED. Green means the track is all clear ahead, keep on tr__________. AMBER means there is a train ahead and youd better stop at the next holdpoint (we have to memorize them all.) Red means, youve gone too far, I'm stopping this train and you're getting in trouble. So, if I receive an Amber and then a Red, I can safely assume it is due to a train. HOWEVER, if I am cruising along with a Green and all of the sudden it goes straight to Red, with no Amber, I can "assume" it was a fault or that the beam has lost power.

This plays a part in what happened last night: the pilot in Pink, assuming the track behind him was clear, with no switches open, the pilot would have had his finger holding MAPO Override (as instructed) but would have had either a Green or Amber MBS, which would have thrown up a red flag in my head that something was not normal. Normally when you switch the train into reverse to cross Switch 9 you IMMEDIATELY get a RED MBS, however Pink was far enough behind it would have been green or amber, and turned Red as the trains approached. The same would have been repeated in Purple. As the trains entered the "Red" zone, they would both have been in Override, disabling the EStop.

So the system depends on central telling them when a switch didnt switch them correctly? Also even after being switched shouldnt the lights on pink been red since there was a train there? Was it possible the driver was going to fast to realise the lights were changing color?

 

[LandBoatride]

The simple answer is: Yes, they are the exact same warning (Red light, loud beeping, train emergency stops.)

The longer answer is: It depends. For example...

The MAPO goes from GREEN>AMBER>RED. Green means the track is all clear ahead, keep on tr__________. AMBER means there is a train ahead and youd better stop at the next holdpoint (we have to memorize them all.) Red means, youve gone too far, I'm stopping this train and you're getting in trouble. So, if I receive an Amber and then a Red, I can safely assume it is due to a train. HOWEVER, if I am cruising along with a Green and all of the sudden it goes straight to Red, with no Amber, I can "assume" it was a fault or that the beam has lost power.

This plays a part in what happened last night: the pilot in Pink, assuming the track behind him was clear, with no switches open, the pilot would have had his finger holding MAPO Override (as instructed) but would have had either a Green or Amber MBS, which would have thrown up a red flag in my head that something was not normal. Normally when you switch the train into reverse to cross Switch 9 you IMMEDIATELY get a RED MBS, however Pink was far enough behind it would have been green or amber, and turned Red as the trains approached. The same would have been repeated in Purple. As the trains entered the "Red" zone, they would both have been in Override, disabling the EStop.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Sigh, it sounds like everyone probably "could" have had a red flag go up but it all likely happend very fast at a very late hour and little warning signs all got missed.

You said Central was unoccupied. First, is that confirmed? Second, is that standard? It seems to me that of all times for Central to be occupied, it would be MOST important during times of beam switches in which all MAPO safety over-rides are on.

 

[Thrill Seeker]

Personally, I'm kinda hoping this will be used as a reason why Disney needs to shell out some big bucks to upgrade our monorail system. The trains currently in use were made in 71 when Magic Kingdom opened and are using old technology. Hopefully after the investigation of this is over, then we might start hearing rumblings of new monorail trains or even an overhaul of the current monorail system.

My heart goes out to the family of the driver who was killed. That is a terrible way to go...

 

[majortom1981]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Sigh, it sounds like everyone probably "could" have had a red flag go up but it all likely happend very fast at a very late hour and little warning signs all got missed.

You said Central was unoccupied. First, is that confirmed? Second, is that standard? It seems to me that of all times for Central to be occupied, it would be MOST important during times of beam switches in which all MAPO safety over-rides are on.

This all seems to me that there is not enough oversite on the system. i would think central should always be occupied until every last train is done for the day or atleast make it so the drivers can get more info then a red light when there is a problem.

 

[board57796]

So the system depends on central telling them when a switch didnt switch them correctly? Also even after being switched shouldnt the lights on pink been red since there was a train there? Was it possible the driver was going to fast to realise the lights were changing color?

If a train is holding and is "23 radio" which any train at that point would be (ie waiting for Central to tell shop to throw a switch) that train DOES NOT MOVE until Central tells them to. The only way Pink would have switched his train into reverse and began to MAPO override is if Central told him so. I know the Pilot in question and he is very professional. And the lights would not have been Red YET, because Purple was at 379 and Pink was at 30, enough space for the trains to operate normally. And yes, the pilot most likely did not notice the lights were changing color, or not realize its implications.

And yes its confirmed Central was unoccupied. It's allowed, but like the other poster said, most will be alone in Central when switches are occuring.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Personally, I'm kinda hoping this will be used as a reason why Disney needs to shell out some big bucks to upgrade our monorail system. The trains currently in use were made in 71 when Magic Kingdom opened and are using old technology. Hopefully after the investigation of this is over, then we might start hearing rumblings of new monorail trains or even an overhaul of the current monorail system.

My heart goes out to the family of the driver who was killed. That is a terrible way to go...

The trains do not date back to 1971. The Mark IVs were all replaced by the larger Mark VIs beginning in 1989. So the oldest trains on the system are only twenty years old.

 

[CaptainMichael]

Personally, I'm kinda hoping this will be used as a reason why Disney needs to shell out some big bucks to upgrade our monorail system. The trains currently in use were made in 71 when Magic Kingdom opened and are using old technology. Hopefully after the investigation of this is over, then we might start hearing rumblings of new monorail trains or even an overhaul of the current monorail system.

The whole system was upgraded in the early 90s with new trains. New computer systems were added very recently. I'm not saying I disagree...just correcting a few mistakes.

 

[majortom1981]

If a train is holding and is "23 radio" which any train at that point would be (ie waiting for Central to tell shop to throw a switch) that train DOES NOT MOVE until Central tells them to. The only way Pink would have switched his train into reverse and began to MAPO override is if Central told him so. I know the Pilot in question and he is very professional. And the lights would not have been Red YET, because Purple was at 379 and Pink was at 30, enough space for the trains to operate normally. And yes, the pilot most likely did not notice the lights were changing color, or not realize its implications.

And yes its confirmed Central was unoccupied. It's allowed, but like the other poster said, most will be alone in Central when switches are occuring.

So basically it sounds like the problem is that nobody was in central to tell the monorail pilot that he was on the wrong track with a little of that being contributed to the monorail trains not giving the pilots enough info and having to rely on central.

Does that sound right?

 

[mpaul32001]

Taken 3/20/09, the most recent picture I have of Purple. Scouting around for Pink. Just thought this picture might be a nice tribute.

Taken 2/15/09

 

[lazyboy97o]

board57796, I must thank you for provided us all with your insight.

I have another question to ask if you do not mind. Why do pilots drive "forward" out of the Epcot Line station (I believe you called it Concourse) and then proceed across the spur and up to the Magic Kingdom in "reverse"? Would it not be possible to leave in "reverse" and then proceed "forward" through the spur, around Seven Seas Lagoon and straight to the barn?