Monorail Accident

[disneydata]

I am a Seasonal CM and was a CP, and I would like to shed some light on the process for removing trains from the Epcot Beam.

.........

I have tried to be as factual about the switching process as I can without being too confusing, and the last paragraph was pure speculation, although I feel I have some credence as I took trains to shop nearly every night. Either way, it is a tragedy that a Cast Member was killed, and I can't imagine what the other driver must be feeling, as well as everyone else involved.

Thank you. This is something I have always wondered about. Being in operations, I've performed similar procedures on many attractions and thought this might be right. Hopefully, we will find out for sure what really happened soon.

I knew Austin and worked with him as well as many other people I know across the resort. He was a great guy and will be missed.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Then thats a system and safety issue and would be a major problem for the park. If thats the case could the state of florida make disney not run the monorail till it fixes its safety issues?

I dont see the reason in being able to turn the safety controls off in the first place.

I think this is what could have happened. I think the only way to make this safer is to make it just like roller coasters work . Make it so yo ucant override a saftey problem. They would have to manually move the train via the diesel mover to the next block (or fix the sensor if its a bad sensor) before the system can start up again.

A monorail driver being able to override the system is not very safe in my opinion.

Then the tractor would be required every single time trains were moved between lines.

 

[Gepettotrevor]

Honestly, I just wanted to post a sarcastic post about all of the theories. I don't actually mind it being discussed. This is the place for it and I enjoy it here.

If I didn't agree with discussing it, I wouldn't be reading. But I do find the many differant theories interesting. It is worth reading to see what other people think happened. I don't mean to be offensive or anything; I just crack sarcastic posts.

Everyone is being respectfull and shooting kind thoughts to the families involved. That's the good thing about it!

 

[EpcotFanForever]

I am a Seasonal CM and was a CP, and I would like to shed some light on the process for removing trains from the Epcot Beam.

Monorail Pink would be "deadheaded" at Concourse, meaning the Pilot announces that the train is going out of service and must be fully unloaded. The pilot walks through the train to ensure this, then closes the doors and goes back to Cab 1 (normal driving cab for Epcot.) At this point the conversation goes similar to this:

...

I have tried to be as factual about the switching process as I can without being too confusing, and the last paragraph was pure speculation, although I feel I have some credence as I took trains to shop nearly every night. Either way, it is a tragedy that a Cast Member was killed, and I can't imagine what the other driver must be feeling, as well as everyone else involved.

Totally plausible situation, and consistent with everything that has been said here. Thank you!

 

[majortom1981]

I am a Seasonal CM and was a CP, and I would like to shed some light on the process for removing trains from the Epcot Beam.

Monorail Pink would be "deadheaded" at Concourse, meaning the Pilot announces that the train is going out of service and must be fully unloaded. The pilot walks through the train to ensure this, then closes the doors and goes back to Cab 1 (normal driving cab for Epcot.) At this point the conversation goes similar to this:

"Central, Monorail Pink is deadheaded at Concourse."
"10-4, Normal Visual to Pylon 30, hold at notify Central"

Pink then continues out in forward to Pylon 30, which places the end of his train (Cab 6) just past the switch point to take trains from Epcot to Express. Once Pink gets to 30 and notifies Central, Central radios shop to move "Switches 8 and 9 to the Spur Line, with power." This is where something went wrong last night. Either Shop didnt comply, Central didn't call, or something malfunctioned. Either way, something went wrong at this point last night.

Central will also call Purple and say

"Monorail Purple you are Normal Visual [if you have a green MAPO and no visual obstructions ahead, go ahead] to Pylon 379, hold and notify."

Pylon 379 is the primary holdpoint for Concourse, meaning if a train is at the station, the train behind will stop at Pylon 379. Pylon 379 is right over the handicapped parking, by the way.

Last night, from what I have been told by people who had radios on them (and switching is really the only interesting thing going on at 2am) that Pink was "Clear to use MAPO Override, in reverse, through 9, through 8, THROUGH BASE, through Poly, through Grand Flo to the Magic Kingdom, switch ends" meaning, had the switches been aligned properly, Pink would have been expecting to reverse COMPLETELY through Base on Express and all the way to the MK. "CLEAR" from Central means you GO. Even if you get an MBS, you MAPO override. Clear is as good as gold, when given from Central.

By this point, Purple has reached 379 and notified so. Central will then say "Purple you are normal visual to pylon 385 [directly above the tram station] then MAPO Override to reach Concourse, hold and notify."

Purple has to MAPO Override because, had the switches been aligned to the spur, there would have been a gap ahead of Purple, which would have given an RED MBS, even though Purple only needed to reach Concourse.

So IN MY OPINION, last night Pink was coming in Reverse in MAPO Override (as required to pass over a switch) but instead of being on the Spur Line, was in fact still on Epcot beam. I do not know why the Pilot did not realize this, but that is not for me to debate. At the same time, Purple was MAPO Overriding from pylon 385. The pilots did not realize their RED MBS was not from a switch being open, but in fact due to the other train. So Pink came through Concourse at 15mph in reverse (as restricted by computers) as Purple was approaching Concourse in forward, in MAPO Override, just past pylon 385 (as indicated by the photos showing it past the tram loading area) and this is where the collision I believe occured.

I have tried to be as factual about the switching process as I can without being too confusing, and the last paragraph was pure speculation, although I feel I have some credence as I took trains to shop nearly every night. Either way, it is a tragedy that a Cast Member was killed, and I can't imagine what the other driver must be feeling, as well as everyone else involved.

So basically the system pretty much works like a coaster ecept that you can override a warning or something like it?

If thats the case i find that the wrong way to handle this . I cant believe the disney engineers didnt see this being able to happen with pilots being able to manual override.

 

[lazyboy97o]

"Clear to use MAPO Override, in reverse, through 9, through 8, THROUGH BASE, through Poly, through Grand Flo to the Magic Kingdom, switch ends" meaning, had the switches been aligned properly, Pink would have been expecting to reverse COMPLETELY through Base on Express and all the way to the MK.

Why would Monorail Pink go all the way around in the opposite direct of normal travel along the Express Line.

 

[drnilescrane]

Why would Monorail Pink go all the way around in the opposite direct of normal travel along the Express Line.

Looking at the Sat Photo, it seems that's the easiest way to put it back on to the shop spur line without having to change direction twice at the Concourse and Magic Kingdom.

 

[board57796]

Why would Monorail Pink go all the way around in the opposite direct of normal travel along the Express Line.

Because the switch leading from Express to Shop, which is between MK and Contemp, is lined up so that the "break point" is on the Contemp side, and the "hinge point" is towards the MK. It's just SOP in Monorails. Usually, the first Express train off Express goes to a point in the Contemp, switches ends, then is clear in reverse to Pylon 62. At Pylone 62, the cab the pilot is in is just past the switch. Then the switch is aligned to the shop spur, and you put the train in forward and MAPO override all the way to shop. All other Express and Epcot trains subsequent to that are routed "the long way" and are usually stacked up going the "opposite" direction on Express, with one at 62 (the first), one at MK (the second) one at 95 (the third, on the hill between GF and MK) and the fourth holding at the GF. I hope this makes sense.

Its also to save wear and tear on the switch, the only open it once for the Express/Epcot-Shop trains as opposed to every train. Plus its easier for the driver to go FORWARD into shop as opposed to reverse (which is what would be necessary if they went the normal Express direction.)

I've reversed into shop a couple times, only in times where they needed the train off FAST and couldnt bother with switching ends (it takes time to reboot the train) such as the fireworks exit. Trust me, its nerve racking. You know when to stop, coming forwards, by hitting, literally, a tennis ball hanging from a string. In reverse, you just wait til they kill power on you...

 

[majortom1981]

Because the switch leading from Express to Shop, which is between MK and Contemp, is lined up so that the "break point" is on the Contemp side, and the "hinge point" is towards the MK. It's just SOP in Monorails. Usually, the first Express train off Express goes to a point in the Contemp, switches ends, then is clear in reverse to Pylon 62. At Pylone 62, the cab the pilot is in is just past the switch. Then the switch is aligned to the shop spur, and you put the train in forward and MAPO override all the way to shop. All other Express and Epcot trains subsequent to that are routed "the long way" and are usually stacked up going the "opposite" direction on Express, with one at 62 (the first), one at MK (the second) one at 95 (the third, on the hill between GF and MK) and the fourth holding at the GF. I hope this makes sense.

So it sounds like a central error to you ?

 

[BadTigger]

I am a Seasonal CM and was a CP, and I would like to shed some light on the process for removing trains from the Epcot Beam.

Monorail Pink would be "deadheaded" at Concourse, meaning the Pilot announces that the train is going out of service and must be fully unloaded. The pilot walks through the train to ensure this, then closes the doors and goes back to Cab 1 (normal driving cab for Epcot.) At this point the conversation goes similar to this:

"Central, Monorail Pink is deadheaded at Concourse."
"10-4, Normal Visual to Pylon 30, hold at notify Central"

Pink then continues out in forward to Pylon 30, which places the end of his train (Cab 6) just past the switch point to take trains from Epcot to Express. Once Pink gets to 30 and notifies Central, Central radios shop to move "Switches 8 and 9 to the Spur Line, with power." This is where something went wrong last night. Either Shop didnt comply, Central didn't call, or something malfunctioned. Either way, something went wrong at this point last night.

Central will also call Purple and say

"Monorail Purple you are Normal Visual [if you have a green MAPO and no visual obstructions ahead, go ahead] to Pylon 379, hold and notify."

Pylon 379 is the primary holdpoint for Concourse, meaning if a train is at the station, the train behind will stop at Pylon 379. Pylon 379 is right over the handicapped parking, by the way.

Last night, from what I have been told by people who had radios on them (and switching is really the only interesting thing going on at 2am) that Pink was "Clear to use MAPO Override, in reverse, through 9, through 8, THROUGH BASE, through Poly, through Grand Flo to the Magic Kingdom, switch ends" meaning, had the switches been aligned properly, Pink would have been expecting to reverse COMPLETELY through Base on Express and all the way to the MK. "CLEAR" from Central means you GO. Even if you get an MBS, you MAPO override. Clear is as good as gold, when given from Central.

By this point, Purple has reached 379 and notified so. Central will then say "Purple you are normal visual to pylon 385 [directly above the tram station] then MAPO Override to reach Concourse, hold and notify."

Purple has to MAPO Override because, had the switches been aligned to the spur, there would have been a gap ahead of Purple, which would have given an RED MBS, even though Purple only needed to reach Concourse.

So IN MY OPINION, last night Pink was coming in Reverse in MAPO Override (as required to pass over a switch) but instead of being on the Spur Line, was in fact still on Epcot beam. I do not know why the Pilot did not realize this, but that is not for me to debate. At the same time, Purple was MAPO Overriding from pylon 385. The pilots did not realize their RED MBS was not from a switch being open, but in fact due to the other train. So Pink came through Concourse at 15mph in reverse (as restricted by computers) as Purple was approaching Concourse in forward, in MAPO Override, just past pylon 385 (as indicated by the photos showing it past the tram loading area) and this is where the collision I believe occured.

I have tried to be as factual about the switching process as I can without being too confusing, and the last paragraph was pure speculation, although I feel I have some credence as I took trains to shop nearly every night. Either way, it is a tragedy that a Cast Member was killed, and I can't imagine what the other driver must be feeling, as well as everyone else involved.

I think that is the best explanation of what happened so far. And really explains what we have all been bickering back and forth about al day.

 

[Thebrerrabbit]

MPAUL it is Very VERY hard to beileve you and here is why, you wrote this following statement after the last monorail crash in 2005

I was there and saw it happen as I was in the Monorail right next to yellow, which is the one that broke down...Our monorail pilot said "If you look to your right you can see Monorail Yellow which has broken down..This is a perfect example of what happens when a monorail breaks down. Our tow vehicle is going to push the, OH GEE!" This is not word for word but thats what he said, & the speaker cut off and I saw monorail yellow jolt maybe 2 inches. The tow truck driver was about 2 feet away from monorail yellow when the driver pushed the throttle too hard and caused the monorail tow car to crash into monorail yellow. Luckily nobody was hurt...All of this information is reliable because I got it from a Monorail CM 2 hours ago. This had also shut the express monorail down for the night right at park closing! What a Mess! There was also a big dent and huge scratches when we passed by it....

Now, you just happened to be at the next crash in 2009 after midnight on july fourth??? doesnt seem right if u ask me

 

[lazyboy97o]

Because the switch leading from Express to Shop, which is between MK and Contemp, is lined up so that the "break point" is on the Contemp side, and the "hinge point" is towards the MK. It's just SOP in Monorails. Usually, the first Express train off Express goes to a point in the Contemp, switches ends, then is clear in reverse to Pylon 62. At Pylone 62, the cab the pilot is in is just past the switch. Then the switch is aligned to the shop spur, and you put the train in forward and MAPO override all the way to shop. All other Express and Epcot trains subsequent to that are routed "the long way" and are usually stacked up going the "opposite" direction on Express, with one at 62 (the first), one at MK (the second) one at 95 (the third, on the hill between GF and MK) and the fourth holding at the GF. I hope this makes sense.

Its also to save wear and tear on the switch, the only open it once for the Express/Epcot-Shop trains as opposed to every train. Plus its easier for the driver to go FORWARD into shop as opposed to reverse (which is what would be necessary if they went the normal Express direction.)

I've reversed into shop a couple times, only in times where they needed the train off FAST and couldnt bother with switching ends (it takes time to reboot the train) such as the fireworks exit. Trust me, its nerve racking. You know when to stop, coming forwards, by hitting, literally, a tennis ball hanging from a string. In reverse, you just wait til they kill power on you...

That makes sense, but raises on other question. Where would the pilot of Monorail Pink have switched cabs so that the monorail could have been driven forward into the shop? Would Monorail Purple, assuming it was going to follow Pink off the line, have gone the long way to the switch, back down and through EPCOT Center?

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

board57796 seems to have nailed it. All of the radio instructions are spot on, and this is exactly the procedure for taking a train out of service off the EPCOT beam.

 

[board57796]

That makes sense, but raises on other question. Where would the pilot of Monorail Pink have switched cabs so that the monorail could have been driven forward into the shop? Would Monorail Purple, assuming it was going to follow Pink off the line, have gone the long way to the switch, back down and through EPCOT Center?

What I understand is that Pink was clear, through 9, through 8, through Base, through Poly, through GF, to the Magic Kingdom, switch ends"

This is a really fun move to make as you travel 40mph in reverse, passing Resort trains as you go. So, to answer your question, the pilot would switch ends at Magic Kingdom, go the "wrong way" on Express to pylon 62, then be cleared by shop, into shop.

This is done because, by this time, all the express trains have been taken off the beam and Express is clear of all trains. That is why Pink "overshot" Concourse, because he was never expecting to stop at Base.

And let me tell you these trains do NOT stop on a dime. Even if the pilot realized he was in fact reversing through Concourse and not Base (ie seeing Central's tower on the LEFT as opposed to Right) and had tried to stop, if Purple was close enough to the station, which is appears it was, the train might not have stopped in time. Or perhaps the driver didn't realize, and was at the full 15mph. I do not know.

Purple's next move is unknown. It depends on if EPCOT were "clear" of Guests. If it were, it is possible it may have made one more lap, and either shut down at Concourse, EPCOT or gone to shop, or gone to shop directly after Pink. Sadly we wont know.

 

[saint71]

Monorail Track Switching Video... Pretty Cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZWEXt5iyj8

 

[board57796]

So it sounds like a central error to you ?

To me, it seems to be, as I said, a perfect storm. The driver of Pink COULD have noticed the spur was to his left as he was reversing, when the Epcot beam SHOULD have been on his right, and stopped. The platform CMs COULD have seen the collision coming and killed power to the beam. Someone COULD have been in Central. But in the end, it appears Central did clear two trains into the same area, unknowingly. Sadly, it appears the CM who died was the only one in the "right place" at the "wrong time"

 

[saint71]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc0EKI_IEN0

Video of Monorail Orange Being brought online... track switching and everything.

 

[majortom1981]

To me, it seems to be, as I said, a perfect storm. The driver of Pink COULD have noticed the spur was to his left as he was reversing, when the Epcot beam SHOULD have been on his right, and stopped. The platform CMs COULD have seen the collision coming and killed power to the beam. Someone COULD have been in Central. But in the end, it appears Central did clear two trains into the same area, unknowingly. Sadly, it appears the CM who died was the only one in the "right place" at the "wrong time"

So the system cant detect a switch problem then ? I know on modern coasters if a switch doesnt work right and either doesnt switch at all or switchers cars to the wrong track the whole ride shuts down and is a pain to bring back up.

I really think if your right then this could mean a long closure for the system depending on how the state deals with it. I know if this happened in New Jersey the system would be down until a better way to stop this from happening again was done.

Id rather see the monorail have a long down time to create a fix for this then to see it put back on fast and have this happen again.

 

[lazyboy97o]

So basically the system pretty much works like a coaster ecept that you can override a warning or something like it?

If thats the case i find that the wrong way to handle this . I cant believe the disney engineers didnt see this being able to happen with pilots being able to manual override.

The override is not done on a whim as you seem to be implying. It is to be used only under explicit instruction.

 

[majortom1981]

hmm

From what wikipedia says that even though you need permission an op can use the override just by holding down a button.