Meryl Streep Blasts Walt Disney at National Board of Review Dinner

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Jimmy Thick

Well-Known Member
Walt was the visionary of his time who made an impact in not only the world he lived but in life itself. He changed the course of life itself.

People can ignorantly say this or that but without being there first hand, no one will ever know anything. I personally refuse to judge anyone based on hearsay.

Jimmy Thick- Good advice.
 

lilclerk

Well-Known Member
Thanks for that.

As a fellow feminist (though not "rabid" or "man-eating", let's all chill out) I see absolutely no point in condemning people in the past for what was, unfortunately, the social norm of the time. We should always focus on what we can change today and in the future. Which is also a good lesson we can learn from Walt.
 

GrumpyFan

Well-Known Member
I think it's very simple-minded to try and judge the actions of anyone from the past, especially if they're dead, and can't defend themselves. Culture, society and accepted norms change frequently. What's acceptable today, might not be tomorrow. Chances are that many of the standards we hold now will not even be given second thought by our grand children, hopefully we won't be judged as horribly for them though. This constant change of human standards has always played a part in history, and will never stop.

That's not an excuse for the actions and behavior of those in history, nor should their actions be ignored. By all means we should look at history and society and learn from it in hopes of growing and bettering ourselves, not ridiculing and judging those who committed the infractions we now find unacceptable. I think in the case of Walt or any other historical figure, if we decide we need to judge them, then we have to look at their overall lifespan, the balance sheet, if you will. Did they cling to these actions and ideas throughout their life, or did they change as society changed? Also, I think we should look at their other actions and beliefs, and whether or not their overall impact on society was negative or positive?
 
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Gabe1

Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
A letter from 1938 about women in the workplace? On top of all his other achievements, Walt would've been the greatest social thinker of the 20th century if thirty years before the second feminist wave he had held 21st century ideas about women in the workforce. Move over Simone De Beauvoir.


And no points for Meryl for not picking up the blatant agism in the letter. Not currently fashionable one presumes?
(Of course, like the agism the sexism belongs to the social structure of the day and its rigid career paths, in a different era and different society that had to place different emphases on security and social stability and etc)

I believe in a time and a place for everything and she really picked the wrong time and place to wig out. An interview or talk show would have been a better venue. That is all I fault her with. Walt was portrayed as many think of him in the 21st century not how he conducted himself in reality a chunk of the time. That was not just with women but men too.

But for all the greatness Walt created he had some major character flaws and with him being gone so long they just get buried in the magic. If memory serves me, I don't believe Walt even educated his daughters which by the 50's it was common for at least for privileged females to go onto some type of higher education and certainly in the 60's & 70's most women did not sit on the sidelines. There didn't seem to be much encouragement from Walt for his daughter to become anything in their own right. While Walt took a SIL into the family business not so much his daughters. It wasn't until 1972 that a female was finally named as a manager in Disneyland, that is pretty darn late in time for a first. A female Walt hired but did't promote to a higher level. While she is now a legend, all of her management roles were after his death. Someone else saw the females potential. If we look at the Windows of Main Street under Walt's watch how many females do we see? The same goes for legends under Walt's wing.

While it wasn't my intention to go off on a Women's Movement tangent I also don't believe Walt had a much respect for women as professionals in his business or professional life and it didn't evolve much over his lifetime. I don't think Meryl was off base in her remarks, I do think she was out of line for where she decided to vent her point of view. Meryl's Mom was a commercial artist, same era as Walt and likely knew as a women that she could never work for Disney as a professional. Unlike Walt, Meryl's Mom and Dad both professionals believed in educating even if they were female, she went to Vassar. I look at Mr Banks as fiction based on some facts. Walt's character in the movie lends more heavily towards the fiction than factual.
 

Californian Elitist

Well-Known Member
I believe in a time and a place for everything and she really picked the wrong time and place to wig out. An interview or talk show would have been a better venue. That is all I fault her with. Walt was portrayed as many think of him in the 21st century not how he conducted himself in reality a chunk of the time. That was not just with women but men too.

But for all the greatness Walt created he had some major character flaws and with him being gone so long they just get buried in the magic. If memory serves me, I don't believe Walt even educated his daughters which by the 50's it was common for at least for privileged females to go onto some type of higher education and certainly in the 60's & 70's most women did not sit on the sidelines. There didn't seem to be much encouragement from Walt for his daughter to become anything in their own right. While Walt took a SIL into the family business not so much his daughters. It wasn't until 1972 that a female was finally named as a manager in Disneyland, that is pretty darn late in time for a first. A female Walt hired but did't promote to a higher level. While she is now a legend, all of her management roles were after his death. Someone else saw the females potential. If we look at the Windows of Main Street under Walt's watch how many females do we see? The same goes for legends under Walt's wing.

While it wasn't my intention to go off on a Women's Movement tangent I also don't believe Walt had a much respect for women as professionals in his business or professional life and it didn't evolve much over his lifetime. I don't think Meryl was off base in her remarks, I do think she was out of line for where she decided to vent her point of view. Meryl's Mom was a commercial artist, same era as Walt and likely knew as a women that she could never work for Disney as a professional. Unlike Walt, Meryl's Mom and Dad both professionals believed in educating even if they were female, she went to Vassar. I look at Mr Banks as fiction based on some facts. Walt's character in the movie lends more heavily towards the fiction than factual.

Thank you for this. We all love Walt Disney, but he wasn't perfect. Speaking about racism, we may not have clear proof that Mr. Disney was a racist, but I think there's enough proof that would allow me to believe he was racially insensitive at times.

Meryl Streep picked the wrong time for her statements, I'll admit, but, as I said earlier, I don't have a problem with her.
 

Gabe1

Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
I think it's very simple-minded to try and judge the actions of anyone from the past, especially if they're dead, and can't defend themselves. Culture, society and accepted norms change frequently. What's acceptable today, might not be tomorrow.

We as a society do it all the time for the alive and dead. Walt should not be untouchable just because the behavior and business practices went unchallenged in that era. The first one that comes to mind is JFK, a very unique professional life or President Clinton, also had a unique view of professional women. Hugh Hefner, a highly educated professional magnet had his own views too on women in business.

Walt considered a progress thinking man could have easily followed the lead of the Ford Corp, he just chose not to, it wasn't like it wasn't being done by progressive corporations. Easily Ford, one of the most progressive companies around that had hiring policies in the 40's of non discrimination policies for race, color, national origin or creed and in the mid 40's added gender to that. They had more people of color in the work force. Twenty years prior (1920) Ford did what Disney and Mrs. Obama is grandstanding about now, hiring veterans, but Ford went further creating positions to hire specifically the disabled veterans. I find it annoying when it is accepted as acceptable because everyone was doing it. No they were not. Some men running huge corporations had the good sense to believe in equality for all. Ford should be remembered even if he is dead for his progressive employment practices. It is OK to give Walt kudos for his accomplishes and ding him for his failings even if he is dead.
 

Lucky

Well-Known Member
Thank you for this. We all love Walt Disney, but he wasn't perfect. Speaking about racism, we may not have clear proof that Mr. Disney was a racist, but I think there's enough proof that would allow me to believe he was racially insensitive at times.
We all should be humble enough to recognize that future generations may judge us equally harshly, no matter how progressive we see ourselves as being.
 

GrumpyFan

Well-Known Member
I find it annoying when it is accepted as acceptable because everyone was doing it. No they were not. Some men running huge corporations had the good sense to
believe in equality for all. Ford should be remembered even if he is dead for his progressive employment practices. It is OK to give Walt kudos for his accomplishes and ding him for his failings even if he is dead.

I don't disagree, but shouldn't there be a point to it? I mean, what are you trying to prove in pointing these things out of someone's past? In light of what she (Streep) did here, it just seems out of context, unwarranted, and as you pointed out, the wrong time do it. As I said previously though, if we're going to look at these things for anyone, we should try to understand both the person and their reasons not just ridicule and bash them for it. We should also look at their entire history and whether or not they eventually changed.
 

xdan0920

Think for yourselfer
Did some of you skip the second page of this thread? The one with the rather long essay from someone who actually knew and worked for Walt? Or was it just too long to bother with for you? Or maybe it didn't fit your agenda so you ignored it???
 

GrumpyFan

Well-Known Member
Walt considered a progress thinking man could have easily followed the lead of the Ford Corp, he just chose not to, it wasn't like it wasn't being done by progressive corporations. Easily Ford, one of the most progressive companies around that had hiring policies in the 40's of non discrimination policies for race, color, national origin or creed and in the mid 40's added gender to that. They had more people of color in the work force. Twenty years prior (1920) Ford did what Disney and Mrs. Obama is grandstanding about now, hiring veterans, but Ford went further creating positions to hire specifically the disabled veterans. I find it annoying when it is accepted as acceptable because everyone was doing it. No they were not. Some men running huge corporations had the good sense to believe in equality for all. Ford should be remembered even if he is dead for his progressive employment practices. It is OK to give Walt kudos for his accomplishes and ding him for his failings even if he is dead.

Not to start a historical debate on who was better (or worse), but Ford wasn't exactly an angel himself. He was very outspoken and biased towards jews and even supported the Nazis. He did apologize (kind of) to the Jews later, but still, he wasn't a perfect, forward thinking business leader without his own prejudices either, and yet this side of him is often overlooked, when he was far more publicly vocal about his beliefs bigotry than Disney ever was.
 
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Jimmy Thick

Well-Known Member
Not to start a historical debate on who was better (or worse), but Ford wasn't exactly an angel himself. He was very outspoken towards jews and even supported the Nazis. He did apologize (kind of) to the Jews later, but still, he wasn't a perfect, forward thinking business leader without his own prejudices either, and yet this side of him is often overlooked, when he was far more publicly vocal about his beliefs bigotry than Disney ever was.

Think of it this way.

How many of the men and women who fought for our freedoms in World War 2 were racist simply by being born in that time? How many racists, if you wish to call them that, stormed Normandy? If those people, heroes, did not do those things what are the chances people even have the right to be so politically correct in this day and age while sitting in front of a computer to relay their personal beliefs freely. This subject is not cut and dry, anyway anyone could look at it.

But...

Meryl Streep is a fool, all she wanted was cheap heat when the spotlight was not on her.

Jimmy Thick- Out of the box and into the light.
 

Gabe1

Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
Not to start a historical debate on who was better (or worse), but Ford wasn't exactly an angel himself. He was very outspoken towards jews and even supported the Nazis. He did apologize (kind of) to the Jews later, but still, he wasn't a perfect, forward thinking business leader without his own prejudices either, and yet this side of him is often overlooked, when he was far more publicly vocal about his beliefs than Disney ever was.

Ahhh, depends on which accountings of Walt's life you're sighting. I've never seen Walt's apologies. Yeah, he did have his opinions on the Jews part of World War One but I don't agree with the Wordsmithing of Ford supporting the Nazis. Over simplification changes actual history, I've see the same simplification multiple times about Fords business with Germany. Ford also had more respect for his employees, he paid his employees leaps and bounds better than Walt did. Ford paid his employees better in 1915 than a chunk of Disney park employees make a century later (cpi adjusted, $125/day now). For all the greatness Walt created there are many things about the man that he had direct control over that are swept under the rug. I admire what he accomplished but like so many business moguls he wasn't a tolerant employer. But hey, a CM this century can now have facial hair like Walt did and have a drink in the MK like Walt did in DL. Baby steps.
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
How many of the men and women who fought for our freedoms in World War 2 were racist simply by being born in that time? How many racists, if you wish to call them that, stormed Normandy? If those people, heroes, did not do those things what are the chances people even have the right to be so politically correct in this day and age while sitting in front of a computer to relay their personal beliefs freely.

Unimportant.
The important thing is that we cut down and dismiss anyone that didn't live in the last 1/3 of the 20th century so that we can feel superior about ourselves, our worldview, and our late-20th, early-21st century accomplishments.
 

Jimmy Thick

Well-Known Member
Ahhh, depends on which accountings of Walt's life you're sighting. I've never seen Walt's apologies. Yeah, he did have his opinions on the Jews part of World War One but I don't agree with the Wordsmithing of Ford supporting the Nazis. Over simplification changes actual history, I've see the same simplification multiple times about Fords business with Germany. Ford also had more respect for his employees, he paid his employees leaps and bounds better than Walt did. Ford paid his employees better in 1915 than a chunk of Disney park employees make a century later (cpi adjusted, $125/day now). For all the greatness Walt created there are many things about the man that he had direct control over that are swept under the rug. I admire what he accomplished but like so many business moguls he wasn't a tolerant employer. But hey, a CM this century can now have facial hair like Walt did and have a drink in the MK like Walt did in DL. Baby steps.

Find one good story about any of the animation houses operating from that time.

Jimmy Thick- People think Walt was bad?
 

GrumpyFan

Well-Known Member
Ford also had more respect for his employees, he paid his employees leaps and bounds better than Walt did. Ford paid his employees better in 1915 than a chunk of Disney park employees make a century later (cpi adjusted, $125/day now). For all the greatness Walt created there are many things about the man that he had direct control over that are swept under the rug. I admire what he accomplished but like so many business moguls he wasn't a tolerant employer.

Comparing Disney Co. to Ford is like apples and oranges. Different businesses, different markets, different product development, different skillsets, etc. etc. There's just no comparison.

Again, not trying to say one is better than the other, I just don't understand the point of the statement. What was she trying to prove? What are YOU trying to prove? If it's that Ford was more charitable with his employees, then ok, I agree with you. But, still what's the point? Disney was/is evil because they're a big, bad money-sucking corporation? Ok, and?
 
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KeithVH

Well-Known Member
For all of you who don't hold Streep accountable for this, whatever. But let's say, for the sake of stupidity, that because someone who holds a bully pulpit with no actual knowledge of all the facts, can make a judgement based on a single fact (the '38 letter) with these results. Now, not wanting to get banned or generate 200 pages of thread, why isn't that same yardstick applied to other people? Pick any famous current figure, especially certain political leaders. I'll bet those who are letting Streep slide would go apesh_t if the same criteria were applied to badmouth the little darlings who some say can do no wrong.

This doesn't even get into the whole concept of decent behavior. How much more crass and low-brow can you get?
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
Piece from The Hollywood Reporter that addresses Meryl's allegations.
http://hollywoodreporter.com/v/AwardsNews/WasMerylStreepCorrec
Spokespeople for Streep and Disney had no comment on the incident. However, several Disney expertsTHR consulted contend that Streep wasn’t being fair to Walt. Here are their reactions to Streep’s three charges against Disney:

Racist? Although Disney shared the racial insensitivity of his day – thinking it would be funny, for example, to have a watermelon-eating black centaur girl in Fantasia -- he also attempted to be sensitive. Disney biographer Neal Gabler notes in Walt Disney: The Triumph of the American Imagination that he sought input for his live action/animated film, Song of the South, from NAACP official Walter White and other leaders and removed some offensive phrases and words like “darky” from the script.

Sexist? Streep quoted Disney animator Ward Kimball, who said, “He didn’t trust women or cats,” and she read from a 1938 letter from Disney informing a female job applicant, “Women do not do any of the creative work in connection with preparing the cartoons for the screen, as that task is performed entirely by young men. For this reason, girls are not considered for the training school. The only work open to women consists of tracing the characters on clear celluloid sheets with India ink, and then, filling in the tracing on the reverse side with paint according to directions."

ANALYSIS: Oscar Ballots Close With a Bang

But women were indeed shut out of animation and confined to inking and painting all over Hollywood in the ’30s. “That was an industry-wide practice,” says one animation expert. “There were, however, a number of women working at [Disney] in a creative capacity during that time, mostly in story development.” In 1941, Walt told male artists working on Dumbo, "If a woman can do the work as well, she is worth as much as a man. The girl artists have the right to expect the same chances for advancement as men, and I honestly believe they may eventually contribute something to this business that men never would or could.” Retta Scott became Disney’s first female animator on 1942’s Bambi, and in the ’40s and ’50s, Mary Blair was art supervisor and color stylist for Saludos Amigos, The Three Caballeros, Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan.

In 1959, Disney wrote, “Women are the best judges of anything we turn out. Their taste is very important. They are the theatergoers, they are the ones who drag the men in. If the women like it, to heck with the men.”

Anti-Semite? That may be the most misunderstood aspect of Disney’s legacy, say some scholars. “It would be unfair to label him an anti-Semite himself,” wrote Gabler in 2009. “There is no evidence whatsoever in the extensive Disney Archives of any anti-Semitic remarks or actions by Walt.” He employed a Jewish man, Herman "Kay" Kamen, as his merchandising chief, and he once said that Disney’s New York office “had more Jews than the Book of Leviticus.”

Disney gave to the Hebrew Orphan Asylum of the City of New York, Yeshiva College, and the Jewish Home for the Aged, and was voted 1955 Man of the Year by the Beverly Hills Lodge of the B'nai B'rith.

So why did Snow White animators Art Babbitt and David Hilberman claim that Walt was anti-Semitic? Gabler and other experts say that, while Babbitt’s and Hilberman’s charges are hard to prove or disprove, they were deeply angry over the animators’ strike of 1941. Disney was paternalistically convinced he was a great boss, which in some ways he was, and the strike also left him bitter, convinced that it had been fomented by communists to damage him.

Streep was correct to note that Disney joined the anti-Semitic, anti-communist MPA – the Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals. Other big studio chiefs avoided the group, but Disney was either politically naive or willing to put up with its anti-Semitism to advance the cause of bashing communism.
 

Wilt Dasney

Well-Known Member
Walt was probably toward the progressive end of the scale, for his time. There was certainly no need for a prominent white man to sanction an attraction like "it's a small world," which debuted at the World's Fair the same year the Civil Rights Act was signed. Walt basically let his company take a side on an issue that was considered contentious at the time by saying all races and peoples are essentially alike. That's not nothing.

At the same time, he was clearly comfortable with, if not supportive of, the kind of crude racial stereotypes that many people cringe at today. The culture he grew up in embraced the idea that even if minority races deserved rights and dignity (itself a debatable prospect), they were clearly inferior to whites within the context of running a developed society. The idea would have been unremarkable to his parents' generation, so for him to even push at the edges of it should probably be seen in a charitable light.

Beyond the single issue of race, Walt's entire mindset seemed to be a mixture of conservatism and progressivism. He built Main Street USA, a love letter to the supposed simplicity of America's past, next door to Tomorrowland, which told us that technology could make it all better. These ideas aren't easily married, and it's only the fact that we've all gotten used to the juxtaposition that makes it seem unremarkable. I think these competing impulses are a big reason that Walt's work is still relevant to people.
 
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