WDW Vacationer
Active Member
The fact that people think Christmas shouldn't be celebrated until after Thanksgiving is irrelevant. The fact is that ALL holiday events should be available to ALL guests for the ENTIRE time they are offered to anyone.
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Meg and Co. Head West ...
- Thread starter WDW1974
- Start date
The fact that people think Christmas shouldn't be celebrated until after Thanksgiving is irrelevant. The fact is that ALL holiday events should be available to ALL guests for the ENTIRE time they are offered to anyone.
Pioneer Hall
Well-Known Member
Why should that be the case though? Simple supply and demand would disagree with offering everything for free when you can easily upcharge for something and have it sell well. Some things should definitely be free and they are, but Disney could also do what some other places do and offer everything and then change prices seasonally. In places all over the world where the Holiday season brings in visitors there are activities that are free, and many that you have to pay extra for (ex: Rockefeller Center. Want to see the tree it's free, want to skate near it you are going to pay). Why should Disney handle themselves any differently?
WDW Vacationer
Active Member
Because that's how it used to be done. It was better.
That's how Disneyland does it -to this day-and they offer more.
Times change. It happens. It IS a business.
Two different markets. Maybe soon they will be experiment with it there after seeing sellouts at another one of their parks. What will the argument be then?
I agree. I think I have stated as much here in other threads. It's a beautiful looking building with what I can only term as 'generic Disney' attraction ... weak to non-existent transitions (meaning dead/empty space), not one water effect in an attraction based UNDER THE SEA, cheap characters that are certainly not Audio Animatronics, no matter what Disney PR spins.
I say it would have been a great attraction IF it were 1995. It isn't.
The more I hear about this, the less impressed I get. It seems like another Barnstormer, just slightly longer and with two whole show scenes. Sure, it will give some nice kinetics to the area. But 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea did that back in 1971 much better than this will in 2013 or 14 or whenever it finally opens (who knew it took so long to build kiddie coasters?)
:drevil:Congrats on the SDL work. And I am hearing the same things regarding the details/quality etc. Unfortunately, I am also hearing the attraction 'menu' is so very light and am having HKDL flashbacks. It's even worse here because Disney is being obnoxiously coy about announcing anything where for HKDL they announced plenty (I still have the first press kit and some internal docs) and then just decided not to build 60% of what was planned.
Sounds great ... but you do know Disney is going to have RFID bracelets by then so that you can charge things with a swipe of the wrist (like it's play money -- see Food and WIne Fest wrist cards!) and you'll be able to schedule FPs from home ... and Daisy Duck will be able to speak your kid's name when she meets the little angel.
I ask you HOW ... HOW ... HOW the heck can UNI possibly compete with that?
~GFC~
They were hoping that everyone would have forgotten. (Fanbois do tend to have the attention span of kitties when you shine a laserpointer on the walls!):ROFLOL:
I heard they would 'definitely' have a replacement in 2011 back after the 2009 uproar. I think they just wanted to shut people up online since it was one of the very few things that seemed (and I'm still not sure why) to galvanize the fan community in an Anaheim like way and that scared the pooh out of a lot of folks at WDW Co.
~GFC~
Ah, but DL (as well as DLP and TDL and HKDL) all offer their entire slate of Christmas entertainment to all guests as part of the price of admission.
Moreso, MK used to always do the same. Christmas Parade would often run either weekends or daily from Turkey Day on for instance. Same with stage shows on the Castle and Tomorrowland stages. And of course we also got the CBJ Christmas show too.
Now, Mickey basically extorts X-mas from guests. You either visit during the two busiest and MOST EXPENSIVE weeks of the year or you pay twice to enter the MK or you get the 10-year-old snow globe parade and the 8-year-old Wishes show.
Only in O-Town ... only in O-Town ...
~GFC~
Quote:
Originally Posted by WDW1974
As to the brand new attractions at MK, well, sure they're new. But there is nothing groundbreaking or special about Mermaid. It is simply a bit of a plussed dark ride that fell flatter with me in Anaheim than I expected. It ain't all that ... and worse, in O-Town they'll have FP, so instead of the typical 20-minute or less waits in Anaheim, you'll have another absurd TSMM situation. Nothing like getting a FP at 10 a.m. for a ride at 5 p.m. and waiting for a very ordinary attraction.
I have no idea whether I am overstating it and neither do you. We won't know until it opens. I can say after experiencing it in Anaheim that it has no need for FP.
Boy, I didn't even realize how much worse MK is going to be. Forgot about FP for Dumbo (not that I ever ride ... except for my 12:57 a.m. ride in May when I wasn't taking away from a child getting to fly!) ... and I won't be using it for meeting Mickey, but plenty will. And now BOTH Mermaid and MineTrain are going to have it too?
Yep. Like Destination Disney and NEXT GEN, the whole purpose is to micro manage every moment (and every penny) of your trip and basically take all of the MAGIC out of it.
~GFC~
Originally Posted by WDW1974
As to the brand new attractions at MK, well, sure they're new. But there is nothing groundbreaking or special about Mermaid. It is simply a bit of a plussed dark ride that fell flatter with me in Anaheim than I expected. It ain't all that ... and worse, in O-Town they'll have FP, so instead of the typical 20-minute or less waits in Anaheim, you'll have another absurd TSMM situation. Nothing like getting a FP at 10 a.m. for a ride at 5 p.m. and waiting for a very ordinary attraction.
I have no idea whether I am overstating it and neither do you. We won't know until it opens. I can say after experiencing it in Anaheim that it has no need for FP.
Boy, I didn't even realize how much worse MK is going to be. Forgot about FP for Dumbo (not that I ever ride ... except for my 12:57 a.m. ride in May when I wasn't taking away from a child getting to fly!) ... and I won't be using it for meeting Mickey, but plenty will. And now BOTH Mermaid and MineTrain are going to have it too?
Yep. Like Destination Disney and NEXT GEN, the whole purpose is to micro manage every moment (and every penny) of your trip and basically take all of the MAGIC out of it.
~GFC~
I agree 100%.
But I'll also add that I think it is VERY tacky that Disney has MVMCP's starting tomorrow night. Forget Thanksgiving (it sure seems as a season, it has disappeared ... we just have months of Halloween followed by months of X-mas) ... but we haven't even hit Veteran's Day weekend and they have THREE freaking parties scheduled for THIS week.
Funny how they can decorate overnight when they want to ... remember this point when it is January 17th and you are in Port Orleans and they are still celebrating.
~GFC~
COProgressFan
Well-Known Member
Yeah, what's with that? The past couple of years they have taken FOREVER to remove holiday decorations from both parks and resorts. This leads to ridiculous situations where you have Christmas music blasting and all the decorations up on MLK weekend. It's just tacky, and didn't used to be the case.
But hey, if you can get away with cutting your holiday services payroll by 50% I guess its worth it.
jt04
Well-Known Member
"Epiphany is celebrated with a wide array of customs around the world. In some cultures, the greenery and nativity scenes put up at Christmas are taken down at Epiphany (Jan 7th or Jan 19th) . In other cultures these remain up until February 2"
And since WDW attracts so many International visitors it makes sense to respond to their particular customs and traditions.
For some folks here who claim to be so well traveled and cultured the lack of knowledge about such facts seems stunning. Such a lack of cultural sensitivity out there.
And since WDW attracts so many International visitors it makes sense to respond to their particular customs and traditions.
For some folks here who claim to be so well traveled and cultured the lack of knowledge about such facts seems stunning. Such a lack of cultural sensitivity out there.
WDWFigment
Well-Known Member
A few random observations:
1. No one truly "knows" what TLM waits will be like at MK with FastPass, but I think we can make reasonable inferences based upon capacity, competing FastPass attractions, etc. At DHS, are there any other popular family-oriented FastPass attractions? Heck, are there many family attractions (that are rides) at all? The Magic Kingdom has a plethora of other family FP attractions. Given that and TLM's high capacity, I think we're looking at Winnie the Pooh length waits, at the very worst. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if TLM eventually lost FastPass, much like Mansion has. Obviously, this is "in my opinion."
2. We're heading to Disneyland for Christmas season for the first time this year. I've stayed intentionally ignorant to what the decorations look like (besides accidentally seeing a few pics in Dateline Disneyland before closing the window!), but from what I've heard, they're better than Walt Disney World's in a per-unit comparison.
On the topic of this "per-unit" comparison, I hate that fans pull out resort-wide offerings when comparing Walt Disney World to Disneyland. Walt Disney World is exponentially larger than Disneyland. It has double the number of parks, and significantly more resorts. All of these additional parks and resorts generate additional revenue. (If the average Walt Disney World vacation now costs $7,000, I'm betting the average Disneyland Resort-only SoCal vacation costs around $3,000.) Compare apples-to-apples. Magic Kingdom to Magic Kingdom. WDW's second most popular park to DCA. WDW's top three resorts to DLR's three resorts. To argue that WDW does less per park but more in the aggregate is a flawed argument because it fails to recognize that in aggregate, WDW generates SIGNIFICANTLY more revenue.
3. On the flip side of this, I'd be careful when pointing to DLR's free holiday offerings as justification that WDW should do the same. Halloween now costs money at Disneyland. If I were a betting man, I'd wager that Christmas will next year when Disneyland is even more of a tourist destination. WDW "gives away" the parade and fireworks close to Christmas because of higher crowds. It wouldn't be viable for TDO to close the MK for a ticketed event at 7 pm 3 nights a week during that busy period. It irritates me that MVMCP is a $60 event that costs significantly more (for less entertainment) than three years ago, but that's the nature of the business. If people voted with their wallets and stopped attending the parties, Disney would (presumably) respond in kind. For us, I'd much rather drop $80 on two party tickets (love that CM discount this year!) than visit closer to Christmas and deal with that chaos.
4. Country Bear Christmas is a sore subject for me. I am a sucker for irreverence, so Country Bear Jamboree is right up my alley. It's been stated that WDW doesn't offer Haunted Mansion Holiday because the park wants to present the classic version of the attraction to once in a lifetime guests. I think the shady logic behind this has been refuted, but here's more "evidence" that the move has more to do with dollars than anything else: why not offer the Country Bear Christmas overlay at Walt Disney World?
Certainly this relatively unpopular attraction isn't the cornerstone of any once-in-a-lifetime vacation. It's an attraction that is largely popular with more frequent guests, and the Christmas overlay always gave it a bit of a spike in attendance (based on my anecdotal observations). So why not do that overlay in the interest of offering something special to the "hardcore" fan audience?
The reason it's not run, I'm almost positive, is because TDO has deemed that the ROI on that specific overlay doesn't justify doing the overlay. I would speculate this is the same actual justification for not doing HMH in WDW. The convenient excuse of catering to once-in-a-lifetime Guests (who aren't returning anyway!) for HMH is just that: an excuse. The same excuse doesn't fly with CBC. Viewing the ROI on each individual attraction and detail and making decisions based upon that is what started WDW down this path of "trimming fat" and offering less. It's a dangerous course. You can only cut so much fat before you hit muscle and bone.
Oh wait, Disney doesn't have the rights to the music in CBC. Right...
1. No one truly "knows" what TLM waits will be like at MK with FastPass, but I think we can make reasonable inferences based upon capacity, competing FastPass attractions, etc. At DHS, are there any other popular family-oriented FastPass attractions? Heck, are there many family attractions (that are rides) at all? The Magic Kingdom has a plethora of other family FP attractions. Given that and TLM's high capacity, I think we're looking at Winnie the Pooh length waits, at the very worst. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if TLM eventually lost FastPass, much like Mansion has. Obviously, this is "in my opinion."
2. We're heading to Disneyland for Christmas season for the first time this year. I've stayed intentionally ignorant to what the decorations look like (besides accidentally seeing a few pics in Dateline Disneyland before closing the window!), but from what I've heard, they're better than Walt Disney World's in a per-unit comparison.
On the topic of this "per-unit" comparison, I hate that fans pull out resort-wide offerings when comparing Walt Disney World to Disneyland. Walt Disney World is exponentially larger than Disneyland. It has double the number of parks, and significantly more resorts. All of these additional parks and resorts generate additional revenue. (If the average Walt Disney World vacation now costs $7,000, I'm betting the average Disneyland Resort-only SoCal vacation costs around $3,000.) Compare apples-to-apples. Magic Kingdom to Magic Kingdom. WDW's second most popular park to DCA. WDW's top three resorts to DLR's three resorts. To argue that WDW does less per park but more in the aggregate is a flawed argument because it fails to recognize that in aggregate, WDW generates SIGNIFICANTLY more revenue.
3. On the flip side of this, I'd be careful when pointing to DLR's free holiday offerings as justification that WDW should do the same. Halloween now costs money at Disneyland. If I were a betting man, I'd wager that Christmas will next year when Disneyland is even more of a tourist destination. WDW "gives away" the parade and fireworks close to Christmas because of higher crowds. It wouldn't be viable for TDO to close the MK for a ticketed event at 7 pm 3 nights a week during that busy period. It irritates me that MVMCP is a $60 event that costs significantly more (for less entertainment) than three years ago, but that's the nature of the business. If people voted with their wallets and stopped attending the parties, Disney would (presumably) respond in kind. For us, I'd much rather drop $80 on two party tickets (love that CM discount this year!) than visit closer to Christmas and deal with that chaos.
4. Country Bear Christmas is a sore subject for me. I am a sucker for irreverence, so Country Bear Jamboree is right up my alley. It's been stated that WDW doesn't offer Haunted Mansion Holiday because the park wants to present the classic version of the attraction to once in a lifetime guests. I think the shady logic behind this has been refuted, but here's more "evidence" that the move has more to do with dollars than anything else: why not offer the Country Bear Christmas overlay at Walt Disney World?
Certainly this relatively unpopular attraction isn't the cornerstone of any once-in-a-lifetime vacation. It's an attraction that is largely popular with more frequent guests, and the Christmas overlay always gave it a bit of a spike in attendance (based on my anecdotal observations). So why not do that overlay in the interest of offering something special to the "hardcore" fan audience?
The reason it's not run, I'm almost positive, is because TDO has deemed that the ROI on that specific overlay doesn't justify doing the overlay. I would speculate this is the same actual justification for not doing HMH in WDW. The convenient excuse of catering to once-in-a-lifetime Guests (who aren't returning anyway!) for HMH is just that: an excuse. The same excuse doesn't fly with CBC. Viewing the ROI on each individual attraction and detail and making decisions based upon that is what started WDW down this path of "trimming fat" and offering less. It's a dangerous course. You can only cut so much fat before you hit muscle and bone.
Oh wait, Disney doesn't have the rights to the music in CBC. Right...
Country Bears got canned because at that time, retro-attractions weren't "cool", it had poor attendance, was in poor shape prior to its recent refurb, and scored badly in the guest surveys. MK was moving onto bigger and better things, with the castle dream lights. Which as we know, are very popular with guests.
The above was a recipe to discontinue it.
It does generate significantly more revenue, but also requires significantly more running costs - which is something that often gets overlooked when talking about DLR vs WDW.
With the entertainment offerings I do think it is a valid argument to look at the aggregate of DLR vs the aggregate of WDW. Most guests will visit all parks when visiting either WDW or DLR. Disney know this, and design entertainment offerings around this idea - on both coasts.
whylightbulb
Well-Known Member
Well obviously Universal can't compete with that so they have to settle for multiple blockbuster attractions that will place the audience in amazing environments, entertain and "WOW" them with innovative show and ride concepts, and exceed their expectations. These are of course outdated ideas that domestic Disney used to be bound to deliver. Thankfully they have been released from this obligation to their customers and can now deliver cookie-cutter experiences and watered down cheap entertainment for all to enjoy.
WDWFigment
Well-Known Member
I understand this, but my point is that when you started viewing the Walt Disney World as its individual parts rather than as the sum of those parts, it's really easy to axe certain offerings that alone aren't profitable, but enhance the experience as a whole.
For example, the incredibly detailed posters in Animal Kingdom probably don't add to the bottom line, but they do add to the experience. Should they be cut because they aren't "carrying their weight?" Disney used to be above making decisions on a per-part basis. Largely, I think the company still is above this, but certain decisions in Orlando have me thinking that some decisions are now made on a per-part level.
Now, if Country Bear Christmas actually was unpopular with Guests (as in, they disliked it as compared to the regular version), I can understand the decision. However, I put little stock into survey results given the way the surveys are written. It's almost a cliche around here, but Disney surveys are written in a manner to confirm what Disney wants to hear. How many time has Disney justified a seemingly nonsensical decision with the line, "Our Guests have indicated..."
As for the Dream Lights being a replacement for CBC, again, I don't like this justification. Paris and DLR have the lights--what overlay did they cut to get them? There used to be a time when Disney simply added without a corresponding subtraction. I understand it's operating a business, but invoking the "it's a business" argument to justify every corner that gets cut rubs me the wrong way.
I suppose I should have written "significantly more profit" rather than revenue. Walt Disney World generates significantly more profit than Disneyland. Given that, I think it's reasonable to expect WDW to offer entertainment in line with its profit levels.
You're right, most Guests will visit all of the parks at both resorts. That shouldn't be a justification for Walt Disney World to offer slightly more than Disneyland. I fail to see the logic in that. If I'm spending more money and taking more time to visit Walt Disney World than Disneyland, I want proportionately more entertainment. I think that is reasonable and logical. I don't just want "a little more" than Disneyland.
Pound for pound, dollar for dollar, Disneyland offers more than Walt Disney World. I love Walt Disney World, and likely always will. I know I've come across as a "Disneyland defender" (or otherwise skewed towards DLR), but there's a reason for it. Disneyland is offering more bang for buck right now than Walt Disney World. Sure, it doesn't have the same scope or scale as Walt Disney World, but when comparing them on even terms, Disneyland is doing what it does better than Walt Disney World.
COProgressFan
Well-Known Member
Well-written post. This completely summarizes my feelings about WDW as well. I have traveled to WDW for almost 25 years and I have seen how much has changed (for the worse). Right now, DL offers far more for one's money than WDW does. It's better maintained, there's more entertainment, a better dining situation, etc. About the only thing DL can't compete on is resorts.
And based on the most recent Al Lutz column, Disney seems to know this and is going all out in marketing DL nationally (and internationally) as a tourist destination.
WDW is far bigger and offers so many experiences. But for the most part, you get far more for your money in DL than WDW these days.
Disneyland Paris unfortunately lost it's Lights of Winter. You think you liked them at Epcot, they were stunning running the entire length of Main Street USA in Paris.
I don't know what DLR has lost, I have not followed the entertainment history of that park close enough.
It is all a personal opinion, and I'm sure we have a big mix of opinions on this. I personally love both resorts, I feel they offer different experiences with good points and bad points at each. I'm glad we have them both to visit, and that they can offer something different.
RSoxNo1
Well-Known Member
This is exactly my thought process as well. Mermaid will have a capacity in the 1800-2000 range (that's apparently close to 3 times Pooh's capacity). No other attraction on either coast, with that capacity has ever resulted in significant fastpass return time issues. Both Toy Story Mania in DHS and Star Tours in Disneyland faced these issues but have a lower capacity. They're also better attractions than Mermaid.
Spirit - Let's make a bet on the FP return times for Mermaid. Loser has to ride Stitch's Great Escape.
As for Fastpass ultimately being removed from Mermaid. I think that's a reasonable assumption. The only reason to keep it would be if there is substantial theming in the Fastpass queue that they want to maintain as a story element - otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if it's regarded as not needed.
Boy, I didn't even realize how much worse MK is going to be. Forgot about FP for Dumbo (not that I ever ride ... except for my 12:57 a.m. ride in May when I wasn't taking away from a child getting to fly!) ... and I won't be using it for meeting Mickey, but plenty will. And now BOTH Mermaid and MineTrain are going to have it too?
Yep. Like Destination Disney and NEXT GEN, the whole purpose is to micro manage every moment (and every penny) of your trip and basically take all of the MAGIC out of it.
~GFC~
I also wouldn't be surprised to see FP ultimately removed from Dumbo as well. What I hope is that with the double spinner they would lengthen the ride time.