Main Street Bakery to Serve Starbucks Coffee

[ParentsOf4]

They would have to be some wealthy "hipsters" to pay that kind of money to just hang out in the Main Street Bakery.

That's what makes them hipsters.

I'm getting tired of watching teenagers driving new BMW and Mercedes. Gotta like spending Daddy's or Mommy's money!

 

[flynnibus]

Well, the California team was starting with a much better drawing board, since they were essentially working with space that was new and could better integrate

While obviously the Pig cafe is much much bigger.. I don't really see the 'unchangable' things being all that in conflict. If they could antique the SB's look for the Pig cafe, they should be able to do the same for the Bakery.

They likely were not trained in issues like capacity or systems management, and they looked at a whole bunch of factors (mostly numbers) and came up with a few options, to which someone in management signed off on the Bakery. Not realizing whether they should or not, just because hey, the Bakery sounds like a good spot for Starbucks

Or as simple as saying 'we have the bakery open early for those morning treats.. everyone wants coffee in the morning - match made'.

For the rest... I'll put on my 'customer hat' and say I don't care why systematically they failed.. they failed IMO as the customer. Where inside the blackbox is failed I don't care.. because I point the finger at Disney, not someone trying to say it's WDI or Ops or F&Bev or whomever. I don't have much interest in trying to figure out where they broke down.. because ultimately it's the decision makers that didn't stop it or fix it either. So it's Disney's problem and I think they screwed the pooch.

I found the pig cafe a nice option in DCA... even tho I'm not a SB or coffee person. I have trouble seeing any positives in the choices we've seen here so far. It will be very interesting to see how this goes down on DL's Main street.

 

[articos]

I see three problems:

- Management itself

The idea for a Starbucks in Main Street is wrong to begin with. Even with the best of designs, it is still a thematic breach. An intrusion. A recipe for disaster.​

This project was a financial one, decided by F&B, accountaneers, and marketing. Instead of decided upon by creative impulse. And it shows.​

​

- The quality of the design team

The project oozes averageness. Half-decent design. I see some fine windows, okay-ish decorations, poor exterior, dissapointing craftsmanship, and some plain wrong choices. Overall it's just not up to par, it's not good enough for the world's premier theme park.​

​

- Design team not versed in the Disney tradition

I get the feeling that some reasonably talented people are brought in, are tasked to design a period Starbucks, and to take great care to make it blend in with MS. Yes, even TDO understands that WDW is a theater production, with high production values, and that these need big budgets. But that all falls flat when there is just not enough true understanding of what makes a Disney park and why the MK is so succesful at what it does. Why, it takes years of study, or a traineeship for the better part of a decade with the old guard before one has a good grasp of what works and what doesn't. Even a talented crew will go easily amiss. These people look like a good team to hire when you want a quality Starbucks for your controlled environment project. But the MK, where everything is themed to the hilt and interconnected, is too specific an environment for a mere '1901 Starbucks'.​

All of the above. Good post.

 

[Tim_4]

I wonder how many of the people outraged over a Starbucks on Main Street enjoy the Edy's ice cream next door. Or maybe a "classic" Mickey Premium Bar (by Nestle). Don't forget the icon of Adventureland authenticism, Orange Bird, brought to you by the Florida Citrus Growers.

 

[articos]

While obviously the Pig cafe is much much bigger.. I don't really see the 'unchangable' things being all that in conflict. If they could antique the SB's look for the Pig cafe, they should be able to do the same for the Bakery.

...

It will be very interesting to see how this goes down on DL's Main street.

Yup, I'm not saying they couldn't have done it, just saying it was much easier for the CA team. The FL location needed a lot more scrutiny. The CA location can get away with having the space and not being penalized for it - it fits the theme and the location. FL's spaces on Main Street are by definition smaller scale, and that means less through-flow. That doesn't jive with a high-capacity Starbucks, regardless of design, so that's a huge challenge to start with. Then you have to go from there. So, they could have done it, but it just requires more experienced, talented people to get their heads around it. But your second point is the important one - you shouldn't care about the details, just that it feels right. I'm curious how it will go over in DL too, especially considering DL is more intimate, but also just as busy. We'll see!

 

[articos]

I wonder how many of the people outraged over a Starbucks on Main Street enjoy the Edy's ice cream next door. Or maybe a "classic" Mickey Premium Bar (by Nestle). Don't forget the icon of Adventureland authenticism, Orange Bird, brought to you by the Florida Citrus Growers.

As far as my criticism, it's not about a Starbucks on Main Street. It's about the store being something that is the same as any other Starbucks on any street. Edy's is in the ice cream parlor, a highly themed environment that works - the Edy's brand fits the environment, not the other way around. And Orange Bird is sold at a location that you definitely don't get in the neighborhood strip mall. I certainly don't mind Starbucks in the parks, just integrated in to the environment, not the parks bending to the 'bucks.

 

[xdan0920]

I wonder how many of the people outraged over a Starbucks on Main Street enjoy the Edy's ice cream next door. Or maybe a "classic" Mickey Premium Bar (by Nestle). Don't forget the icon of Adventureland authenticism, Orange Bird, brought to you by the Florida Citrus Growers.

Not even remotely the same. And the fact is, before we saw the end result, I had the exact same stance as you. But this isn't the MS Bakery featuring Starbucks. This is a Starbucks, and a fairly standard one, dropped right onto Main Street USA.

 

[xdan0920]

And what a miserable attitude that is (of WDW, not you).

In essence, the Bakery has been replaced by an indoor Starbucks cart. It's not even a coffee shop, it's a drive-thru. Well walkthrough. Buy and begone. Next please!

To think that MS was founded as the nostalgic version of MS, one where the old shops still existed, where they knew your name, always had time for you, and took pride in being unique shops. MS is an escape from suburbanism, massive impersonal stores, generic chain stores. So ironic that it is slowly falling prey to the same forces that destroyed real main streets and from which MS is a refuge!

Seems like many of the things you were (rightly) concerned about have come to be. I started out standing firmly behind the idea of Starbucks coffee being sold in parks, what they have done though, I can't stand behind this.

 

[Tim_4]

As far as my criticism, it's not about a Starbucks on Main Street. It's about the store being something that is the same as any other Starbucks on any street. Edy's is in the ice cream parlor, a highly themed environment that works - the Edy's brand fits the environment, not the other way around. And Orange Bird is sold at a location that you definitely don't get in the neighborhood strip mall.

Not even remotely the same. And the fact is, before we saw the end result, I had the exact same stance as you. But this isn't the MS Bakery featuring Starbucks. This is a Starbucks, and a fairly standard one, dropped right onto Main Street USA.

Those are fair points. I was mainly addressing those aghast at the inclusion of Starbucks, period. The execution thereof is fair game.

 

[xdan0920]

Those are fair points. I was mainly addressing those aghast at the inclusion of Starbucks, period. The execution thereof is fair game.

Agreed, as I said above. I started off pro Starbucks. The execution has completely soured me on it though.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I wonder how many of the people outraged over a Starbucks on Main Street enjoy the Edy's ice cream next door. Or maybe a "classic" Mickey Premium Bar (by Nestle). Don't forget the icon of Adventureland authenticism, Orange Bird, brought to you by the Florida Citrus Growers.

For me - I'll give a short answer, so as not to bore people to tears with my ramblings! - it's fine to sell Heinz Ketchup on MS, but not to serve Mcdonald's fries. One is a product, the other a place.
Yes, there is a grey area, where the fries (or SB coffee) are somewhere between a product that is served or a place that is visited. Maybe it's a matter of personal gut feeling where one crosses over into the other.

 

[Tim_4]

For me - I'll give a short answer, so as not to bore people to death - it's fine to sell Heinz Ketchup on MS, but not to serve Mcdonald's fries. One is a product, the other a place.
Yes, there is a grey area, where the fries (or SB coffee) are somewhere between a product that is served or a place that is visited. Maybe it's a matter of personal gut feeling where one crosses over into the other.

Keep reading. I clarified on a subsequent post. I think we agree.

 

[articos]

I'll admit the MK location looks more like a regular Starbucks than the DCA version, which is kind of weird, I guess. Still, it doesn't look bad at all to me.

You're right. And part of the problem is it doesn't look bad. It looks fine. It just doesn't fit with what Main Street is. But because it's not bad, no one will notice the loss of a little bit more of what made Main Street special.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Tired or not, it was an idealized, yet somewhat real take on 1901. This isn't even trying to be real, nor is it 2010's version of 1901. It's a Starbucks, with decorations on the wall. The fixtures are Starbucks. The registers/counters/display cases are thoroughly modern, and Starbucks/2013 Disney. There is very little about this that is 1901 at all - the best approximation is Starbucks building one of their stores within a historic building, but still mostly gutting the space and putting in their system. They match some of the historical detail with modern takes, but it's mostly decoration. That's fine, but that's not what Main Street is supposed to be or was built as. That's not why people go to the Magic Kingdom, although as renovations like this continue to happen, that entire concept is lost. Old MK would have built specific fixtures that match the theme. They would have had consultants tell them how to balance the capacity issues against the need to capture the 'sense' of Main Street's stores. See what I'm getting at? None of that occurred here.

You certainly do have a point; I think I remember a similar discussion in Eddie Sotto's thread. But are you eulogizing something that was already long gone? I know the displays and registers are 2013 DisneyParks®, but aren't they replacing 2003(or such) DisneyParks unthemed displays and registers? Maybe I was missing the details, but I just saw a cafeteria line at the most recent incarnation of the Bakery, not a magical 1901 mom-and-pop bakery.

 

[Clamman73]

Can we just be happy the coffee wasn't secretly replaced by Folgers crystals???

 

[englanddg]

Can we just be happy the coffee wasn't secretly replaced by Folgers crystals???

The best part about waking up...

 

[articos]

You certainly do have a point; I think I remember a similar discussion in Eddie Sotto's thread. But are you eulogizing something that was already long gone? I know the displays and registers are 2013 DisneyParks®, but aren't they replacing 2003(or such) DisneyParks unthemed displays and registers? Maybe I was missing the details, but I just saw a cafeteria line at the most recent incarnation of the Bakery, not a magical 1901 mom-and-pop bakery.

Yes. To all of the above. You're right, the most recent incarnation did not have the original old feel, but it still had some remnants of the original space/intent, and was uniquely Main Street - the scale was proper to the other spaces on Main Street, so when you walked in, it felt like an intimate space with the scale of a bakery on a town Main Street. There were display cases with intricate woodwork with period baking implements still. The registers were hidden a bit, not right there front and center above the counter. The register displays were hidden in a wooden thematic treatment - the Starbucks incarnation are sitting right there on the counters. The were period ceiling fans and hanging fixtures, purposefully there to bring a human scale to the space. Those are mostly gone. It's more eulogizing the complete turn from a somewhat unique space to what is wholly a franchise build. The feeling you get walking into what I see there is now the feeling you get walking into any franchise currently out there. It looks and feels like it was built by and to the same standard feeling you get when you walk into any Starbucks or Panera. Both of which I love, but not there.

Even though this transition started a long time ago, doesn't mean I'm going to let Disney (or Universal) or my colleagues off the hook about it. There's a lot of us who get just as upset as the public when something like this occurs, and we double down to make sure as much as we're able that this doesn't happen on any of our future projects. Unfortunately, we're also just as resigned to realizing it's going to happen regardless. But we do try - there's just a lot more of the regular project managers - even within WDI - who look at this as just a job than there are those of us who really understand and care about the product. Sometimes we're successful. By pointing things like this out, it keeps the issue in the public eye and keeps the dialogue out there.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

Yes. To all of the above. You're right, the most recent incarnation did not have the original old feel, but it still had some remnants of the original space/intent, and was uniquely Main Street - the scale was proper to the other spaces on Main Street, so when you walked in, it felt like an intimate space with the scale of a bakery on a town Main Street. There were display cases with intricate woodwork with period baking implements still. The registers were hidden a bit, not right there front and center above the counter. The register displays were hidden in a wooden thematic treatment - the Starbucks incarnation are sitting right there on the counters. The were period ceiling fans and hanging fixtures, purposefully there to bring a human scale to the space. Those are mostly gone. It's more eulogizing the complete turn from a somewhat unique space to what is wholy a franchise build. The feeling you get walking into what I see there is now the feeling you get walking into any franchise currently out there. It looks and feels like it was built by and to the same standard feeling you get when you walk into any Starbucks or Panera. Both of which I love, but not there.

Even though this transition started a long time ago, doesn't mean I'm going to let Disney (or Universal) or my colleagues off the hook about it. There's a lot of us who get as upset or more when something like this occurs, and we double down to make sure it as much as we're able that doesn't happen on any of our future projects.

I'm afraid I don't always notice the "interior designer" details like the molding and the handcarved suchandsuch as much as I would like (they still affect me unconsciously, of course), but the scale immediately jumped out at me. The other recent example that comes to mind is the old/new Patisserie in France. The old one was too small, too busy, a little hole in the wall in an alley... and awesome. The new one (disclaimer: haven't been yet) seems too big, too plain, and with the same queue stanchions that you have at the DME counter at MCO.

I think one important difference between the MK and DCA Starbucks that I hadn't thought of before is that the turn of the century was still about human scale. Man hadn't flown yet. By the 20's and 30's, you started to see more grand public spaces, like that airplane terminal that Disney is refurbishing in Burbank or the grand old train station that every city probably built around this time.

 

[articos]

I'm afraid I don't always notice the "interior designer" details like the molding and the handcarved suchandsuch as much as I would like (they still affect me unconsciously, of course), but the scale immediately jumped out at me. The other recent example that comes to mind is the old/new Patisserie in France. The old one was too small, too busy, a little hole in the wall in an alley... and awesome. The new one (disclaimer: haven't been yet) seems too big, too plain, and with the same queue stanchions that you have at the DME counter at MCO.

I think one important difference between the MK and DCA Starbucks that I hadn't thought of before is that the turn of the century was still about human scale. Man hadn't flown yet. By the 20's and 30's, you started to see more grand public spaces, like that airplane terminal that Disney is refurbishing in Burbank or the grand old train station that every city probably built around this time.

Exactly.

 

[englanddg]

I just thought I'd post this for anyone who wants to make the "I don't see you complaining about Coca-Cola being on Main St. USA"... <all in good fun>

Ice Cream Parlor from 1903