Main Street Bakery to Serve Starbucks Coffee

[Californian Elitist]

Please check out what I said in bold below:

Okay, but did you watch the first video I posted? The merchandise sold on Main Street then and the stuff sold now is completely different, for example there was a music shop. The shops now on Main Street all pretty much sell the same thing and it's nothing unique and cool. Just typical.

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That was from a different post and was not even closely intended to say that it was in anyway wrong for people to eat popcorn or whatever on Main St. USA. What I said, is that I do not go to WDW to eat. It isn't a mass condemnation of others that do that, just that I don't and that was why Main Street did not seem all that different to me. And yes, it would be nice to have shops with neat things, however, if people don't buy those neat things, they will not stay for long. They aren't there to look at. In retail every inch must produce revenue. Not the product of a fantasy happy ending, but unfortunately, the way it is. And, as I said, that is the reason that I think we have the Main Street that we now have with just generic Disney stuff, that actually does sell. Disney does, however, have one item prominently displayed that I do think is there solely to be looked at and that is the $10,000.00 Crystal Castle. I'll bet they don't sell one of those everyday.

Things used to be unique, that's our entire point, and like you said, it's unfortunate, another point of ours. According to people here, Main Street back in the 80's was more unique, hence the reason of my confusion when you said Main Street now is the same Main Street from the 80's.

If they took away the Main Street vehicles, the Magic Shop, the Main Street Cinema and all of what's left of the Penny Arcade from Disneyland, as they did the Magic Kingdom, it would feel very different to me. But that's me, not you, apparently. Everyone's different.

 

[71jason]

Most of the passion was because of location and traditions. I've often described Main Street USA (MSUSA) as theme park holy ground and Starbuck's was "desecrating" that ground.

I'm still not clear how Starbucks is different from Edy's in this scenario. Other than people have an irrational hatred of Starbucks (or at least the "hipsters" they perceive as Starbucks clientele).

 

[Goofyernmost]

Okay, but did you watch the first video I posted? The merchandise sold on Main Street then and the stuff sold now is completely different, for example there was a music shop. The shops now on Main Street all pretty much sell the same thing and it's nothing unique and cool. Just typical.

Yes, I know about the music shop. And that is the point I'm trying to make. How many pianos do you think they sold out of that location? That was what the problem with all those specialty shops were. People didn't go to Disney to buy a piano or whatever consumer goods that they were selling. Yes, it was different, quaint and fun to look at, but purchasing that is a completely different mindset. The thought was, with all this traffic, it would be good for sales, did not translate into sales. It did not last and was replaced by stuff that did. Even the Magic Shop, which was there, in some degree, for atmosphere still expected to sell enough merchandise to pay for itself. It did, and probably still does in DL, but it never had that same draw in WDW.

 

[JenniferS]

I don't disagree with what you said, but, in my case the heart doesn't come from what is offered inside the buildings, it is what I feel as I walk down Main Street. I don't have to go into a store to imagine what is in there and since I don't plan on buying anything, I have no need to anyway. I just let my imagination tell me what's there, whether it is or not.

I fully realize that not everyone feels that way, and that's fine. Everyone has a different way of looking at things. I started that post with "I guess I'm lucky" meaning that all that was inside the doors didn't have any impact on me at all. I also wanted to express my belief that make me that way...I don't go to WDW or DL to buy things...what's for sale in those buildings mean nothing to me. They do not create heart to me, just someone attempting to separate me from my cash. I know I'm old and cynical but I'm OK with that.

YOU may not plan on buying anything, but many of us do. And we would appreciate it if it weren't the same generic junk offered in a dozen other locations. I buy my generic Disney stuff at DTD on a dedicated shopping trip.
I want to relax in the MS stores. I want to linger. I want to ooh and aah. And dammit, I want to sit in an old fashioned bakery and eat my half of the cinnamon bun. (Oops, off topic for a sec there).

Furthermore, the longer people linger in the shops examining unique offerings, the less people in line for rides, or cluttering the walkways. The shops used to be "attractions", and could be again.

Not every square foot has to turn a profit. If that were true, buh-bye Swiss Family Treehouse, Jungle Cruise, CoP, People Mover, and every other ride that doesn't dump directly into a gift shop.

 

[ParentsOf4]

I'm still not clear how Starbucks is different from Edy's in this scenario. Other than people have an irrational hatred of Starbucks (or at least the "hipsters" they perceive as Starbucks clientele).

Edy's was founded in 1928 and positions itself as "old fashioned" ice cream. Right or wrong, people associate eating ice cream as a simple pleasure of old-time Americana. And it's still basically the Plaza Ice Cream Parlor selling Edy's ice cream.

Starbuck's was founded in 1971 and is viewed as a more hipster coffee shop. It's difficult to imagine a place like Starbuck's in small-town Americana. And it's not the Main Street Bakery selling Starbuck's (which fewer would have objected to), it's a Stabuck's selling mostly typical Starbuck's products trying to pretend it's still the Main Street Bakery.

I'm not suggesting any of the above is logical. It's a basic emotional response devoid of much logic. The question I am trying to answer is why was the Starbuck's on MSUSA met with so much objection, not whether it was good or bad for MSUSA.

I'm of the opinion that Starbuck's at any location other than MSUSA (or Cinderella's Castle) would have been met with a generally positive response by most WDW fans. WDW coffee was notoriously bad.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Yes, I know about the music shop. And that is the point I'm trying to make. How many pianos do you think they sold out of that location? That was what the problem with all those specialty shops were. People didn't go to Disney to buy a piano or whatever consumer goods that they were selling. Yes, it was different, quaint and fun to look at, but purchasing that is a completely different mindset. The thought was, with all this traffic, it would be good for sales, did not translate into sales. It did not last and was replaced by stuff that did. Even the Magic Shop, which was there, in some degree, for atmosphere still expected to sell enough merchandise to pay for itself. It did, and probably still does in DL, but it never had that same draw in WDW.

Another point of ours. Disney is very money-hungry and their interests are driven by sales and how they can make a quick fifty bucks off someone. Walt Disney said he didn't create Disneyland with the sole purpose of making money. It wasn't about the money, it was about creating a place where families could go and have a good time. But, like all corporations now, it's money, money, money. It's just disappointing.

 

[Goofyernmost]

YOU may not plan on buying anything, but many of us do. And we would appreciate it if it weren't the same generic junk offered in a dozen other locations. I buy my generic Disney stuff at DTD on a dedicated shopping trip.
I want to relax in the MS stores. I want to linger. I want to ooh and aah. And dammit, I want to sit in an old fashioned bakery and eat my half of the cinnamon bun. (Oops, off topic for a sec there).

Furthermore, the longer people linger in the shops examining unique offerings, the less people in line for rides, or cluttering the walkways. The shops used to be "attractions", and could be again.

Not every square foot has to turn a profit. If that were true, buh-bye Swiss Family Treehouse, Jungle Cruise, CoP, People Mover, and every other ride that doesn't dump directly into a gift shop.

You and I might like to think that every square foot doesn't have to turn a profit, but, that directly contradicts any law of retail that you can find. If something doesn't turn over in a subscribed period of time then it gets replaced with something that will. The others are attractions and they are what supposedly brings the people in the parks putting them in a position to buy other stuff. The stores aren't there to draw people into the parks and then see the attractions. It's the other way around.

I like Cinnamon Buns as well, but if they didn't sell enough of them to justify keeping them, they went away. Or in this case moved. They apparently sold enough to keep them someplace just not enough to keep them where they were. Now we can go back on-topic!

 

[Goofyernmost]

Another point of ours. Disney is very money-hungry and their interests are driven by sales and how they can make a quick fifty bucks off someone. Walt Disney said he didn't create Disneyland with the sole purpose of making money. It wasn't about the money, it was about creating a place where families could go and have a good time. But, like all corporations now, it's money, money, money. It's just disappointing.

Well, Walt Disney is dead. I hate to be blunt like that, but he is. This was his philosophy. Disneyland was his dream and he knew what he wanted to achieve from it. You can believe that he wanted to to make money and lots of it, so he could support his other dreams, but it wasn't just money, you are correct. Now the company is run by people whose only motivation is to make money. They will spend money only if they are convinced it will help them make money. As much as we would like to have it like it was originally, it will never be again. Someone might tell you that they have the same motivation as Walt, but they do not and never will have that ability. They did not have the dream...they just are out there making a living.

 

[SirLink]

I'm still not clear how Starbucks is different from Edy's in this scenario. Other than people have an irrational hatred of Starbucks (or at least the "hipsters" they perceive as Starbucks clientele).

Nothing is really different there are bigger problems *cough* Emporium *cough*

 

[ParentsOf4]

Yes, I know about the music shop. And that is the point I'm trying to make. How many pianos do you think they sold out of that location? That was what the problem with all those specialty shops were. People didn't go to Disney to buy a piano or whatever consumer goods that they were selling. Yes, it was different, quaint and fun to look at, but purchasing that is a completely different mindset.The thought was, with all this traffic, it would be good for sales, did not translate into sales. It did not last and was replaced by stuff that did. Even the Magic Shop, which was there, in some degree, for atmosphere still expected to sell enough merchandise to pay for itself. It did, and probably still does in DL, but it never had that same draw in WDW.

As originally planned, it's my understanding that the primary purpose of MSUSA at DL and later MK was not to peddle merchandise; it was to present an idolized view of turn-of-the-century America. The shops were never originally intended to be money makers. As originally envisioned by Walt, they had more in common with living history museums such Mystic Seaport or Jamestown. Yes, they were supposed to sell merchandise but that was an ancillary benefit. The shops were mostly supposed to be attractions in and of themselves.

All that changed under Eisner. Now MSUSA is mostly about peddling the exact same merchandise I can find in my local Disney store.

And the WDW shops did pay for themselves and did turn modest profits. But that wasn't good enough for the modern corporate Disney. Now, like everything at WDW, it's all about squeezing more money out of the "guests" and cutting costs; making guests spend more for less.

WDW has completely lost all of the "customer first" charm that made it such a special place.

 

[RandySavage]

You and I might like to think that every square foot doesn't have to turn a profit, but, that directly contradicts any law of retail that you can find. If something doesn't turn over in a subscribed period of time then it gets replaced with something that will.
The others are attractions and they are what supposedly brings the people in the parks putting them in a position to buy other stuff. The stores aren't there to draw people into the parks and then see the attractions. It's the other way around.

Liberty Square's Old World Antiques was kept open for two decades (70s-90s) despite operating at a loss. All the while, WDW as a whole, prospered. The management philosophy back then was that it was okay that not every sq ft of retail turn a profit, because, in some cases, unique shops supported the Show. And great Show drew people to WDW and kept them coming back.

That was a classy way to operate.

 

[JenniferS]

You and I might like to think that every square foot doesn't have to turn a profit, but, that directly contradicts any law of retail that you can find. If something doesn't turn over in a subscribed period of time then it gets replaced with something that will. The others are attractions and they are what supposedly brings the people in the parks putting them in a position to buy other stuff. The stores aren't there to draw people into the parks and then see the attractions. It's the other way around.

I like Cinnamon Buns as well, but if they didn't sell enough of them to justify keeping them, they went away. Or in this case moved. They apparently sold enough to keep them someplace just not enough to keep them where they were. Now we can go back on-topic!

Again, the junk they are selling on MSUSA is available at literally 20 other places. I am only going to buy that certain item once! Just because I can buy Minnie ears at a dozen different locations, doesn't mean I will buy a dozen. I'm only buying one set of ears.

Now, offer me something truly unique, and I will be more inclined to make a spur of the moment purchase.
As it stands, DAK offers some of the more interesting items. Not as much as before, but certainly more than MSUSA.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Well, Walt Disney is dead. I hate to be blunt like that, but he is. This was his philosophy. Disneyland was his dream and he knew what he wanted to achieve from it. You can believe that he wanted to to make money and lots of it, so he could support his other dreams, but it wasn't just money, you are correct. Now the company is run by people whose only motivation is to make money. They will spend money only if they are convinced it will help them make money. As much as we would like to have it like it was originally, it will never be again. Someone might tell you that they have the same motivation as Walt, but they do not and never will have that ability. They did not have the dream...they just are out there making a living.

That's the point, again. Glad you agree.

 

[ParentsOf4]

Well, Walt Disney is dead. I hate to be blunt like that, but he is. This was his philosophy. Disneyland was his dream and he knew what he wanted to achieve from it. You can believe that he wanted to to make money and lots of it, so he could support his other dreams, but it wasn't just money, you are correct. Now the company is run by people whose only motivation is to make money. They will spend money only if they are convinced it will help them make money. As much as we would like to have it like it was originally, it will never be again. Someone might tell you that they have the same motivation as Walt, but they do not and never will have that ability. They did not have the dream...they just are out there making a living.

Everything that you wrote is exactly why so many of us old-time WDW visitors say WDW is no longer as good as it used to be.

Instead of putting guests first (something I thought was very palpable in the 1970s & 1980s), TWDC has pretty much abandoned any pretense of valuing its "guests". Nowadays, much of corporate Disney's thinking at the senior levels of management has more to do with treating "guests" like factory inventory, something to be optimized. At the senior executive level, corporate Disney has completely forgotten that its "guests" are real people.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

You and I might like to think that every square foot doesn't have to turn a profit, but, that directly contradicts any law of retail that you can find. If something doesn't turn over in a subscribed period of time then it gets replaced with something that will.

Then you have no eye for show, taste for quality or any knowledge that the stores on Main Street lasted for 25 years before being dumped in favour of this attitude. Surley if they were SO unsuccessful they'd have been dropped sooner? Or maybe there's more to it than making profits hand over fist on made in China tat? It couldn't be that there were other factors (measured in profit, time spent in the park or guest satisfaction ratings) that were used to determine "success" before? Yes the Main Street Cinema didn't make any money in the past, but it wasn't a store.

And what do you got against popcorn anyway? Yes you can't take it onto rides, but really, no food can (yes @TP2000, I know about the Tiki Room at DL, but we're hear to discuss things in general ), so why talk down about something simple most people like?

I'm glad you care so little about the food and merchandise offerings in a park that costs $95 to get in. In that sense, you're Disney's Dream Guest®!

 

[SirLink]

You and I might like to think that every square foot doesn't have to turn a profit, but, that directly contradicts any law of retail that you can find. If something doesn't turn over in a subscribed period of time then it gets replaced with something that will. The others are attractions and they are what supposedly brings the people in the parks putting them in a position to buy other stuff. The stores aren't there to draw people into the parks and then see the attractions. It's the other way around.

I like Cinnamon Buns as well, but if they didn't sell enough of them to justify keeping them, they went away. Or in this case moved. They apparently sold enough to keep them someplace just not enough to keep them where they were. Now we can go back on-topic!

Like? Oh we are talking Disney laws ... so the retail laws are to be as nakedly greedy as possible. Gotcha unlike how it was the first 20-25 years of WDW - where it was customer orientated first. BTW if a theme park can't sell me on a little merch then it has completely failed. Hence why I came from Cars Land with a Stanley Oasis "Cars Land" branded T-shirt. Same reason for Potter/Simpsons/etc. WDW nothing.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

I'm still not clear how Starbucks is different from Edy's in this scenario. Other than people have an irrational hatred of Starbucks (or at least the "hipsters" they perceive as Starbucks clientele).

Edy's is a product, Starbucks a place.

It is the same difference between the Luau in the Polynesian serving Coca-Cola drinks, or replacing it with a Burger King.

 

[Kuhio]

Liberty Square's Old World Antiques was kept open for two decades (70s-90s) despite operating at a loss. All the while, WDW as a whole, prospered. The management philosophy back then was that it was okay that not every sq ft of retail turn a profit, because, in some cases, unique shops supported the Show. And great Show drew people to WDW and kept them coming back.

Completely agree with everything you've said, but I think the last point especially needs to be emphasized.

To me, merchandise locations like Old World Antiques and the Main Street Magic Shop were an integral part of the Show. I might not have made very many purchases from either location, but their charm and very existence were things that made me care about and become loyal to WDW.

So even if a store operates at a loss, it can still contribute to the financial bottom line if it helps to inspire guests' love for and loyalty to the company. Part of the reason for the popularity of WDW is the fact that, for decades, discerning guests realized that the little things that made the parks different were also what made them special. These are guests who return to the parks repeatedly, eventually bringing their kids and grandkids, representing a steady income stream over the course of decades for the Company's coffers.

In contrast, if you don't hook your first-time visitors right away by making them feel like your product is something special that's worth their time and money -- even more critical in today's competitive theme park market than it was in the '70s or '80s -- then you risk losing the entire future income stream (both admissions and food/merchandise sales) you could have had.

Instead, these guests might just decide that the rival park up the road -- the one whose wizard-themed village features unique stores that sell theme-appropriate merchandise not found everywhere else in the park -- is more worthy of their future vacation spending.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Then you have no eye for show, taste for quality or any knowledge that the stores on Main Street lasted for 25 years before being dumped in favour of this attitude. Surley if they were SO unsuccessful they'd have been dropped sooner? Or maybe there's more to it than making profits hand over fist on made in China tat? It couldn't be that there were other factors (measured in profit, time spent in the park or guest satisfaction ratings) that were used to determine "success" before? Yes the Main Street Cinema didn't make any money in the past, but it wasn't a store.

And what do you got against popcorn anyway? Yes you can't take it onto rides, but really, no food can (yes @TP2000, I know about the Tiki Room at DL, but we're hear to discuss things in general ), so why talk down about something simple most people like?

I'm glad you care so little about the food and merchandise offerings in a park that costs $95 to get in. In that sense, you're Disney's Dream Guest®!

Although, I do admire your capacity to come out swinging at everything that you think is a slam on one of your beliefs, I'd just like to point out something. If you were to actually read what I have posted word for word instead of knee jerk reacting to one or two words and then filling in the blanks from there, you might see that you are accusing me of something I didn't say or even come close to saying. Since I have already explained my position about a hundred times, I am going to refrain from doing it again and just say...look back a few posts and all that I said may become clearer. And if you look back at my words that you quoted you will find that I didn't say that I believed it was the only way, I just said or tried to describe the logic (if you can call it that) behind what has happened. I didn't make the rules, I am just reporting them as I see them. Not every decision will be based on the ideals of a man who has been deceased for 47 years. He may have a legacy, but his power is now gone.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Although, I do admire your capacity to come out swinging at everything that you think is a slam on one of your beliefs, I'd just like to point out something. If you were to actually read what I have posted word for word instead of knee jerk reacting to one or two words and then filling in the blanks from there, you might see that you are accusing me of something I didn't say or even come close to saying.

Playing victim much?

To quote your original post:

"Those stores didn't exist just for atmosphere, they existed to sell things"

The importance of sales over show has already proven to be wrong by others, so I won't go into the details again. This also ignores attractions that were later turned into stores like the Arcade and Cinema.

"But, Main Street is still Main Street to me. I don't ask anymore of it then to be a street with store facades on it. That it is...and that satisfied my need."

A pretty apathetic/simplistic attitude on your part. "Caring little" would not be too far off a description of your views in that post. We know MS was more than just about having superficial facades, which was the major point of upset. You may not care so much, but others do.

"I didn't go to WDW to eat, especially things that I could get elsewhere. Coffee of any name is still coffee, be it some unheard of brand or Starbucks. Ice Cream is ice cream and my demand is only that it be good. Walk along carrying popcorn? Why? Just so you are more thirsty than the Florida heat already causes. What do you do with it when you ride an attraction? Don't know, never needed to find out."

Same goes for this. "coffee is coffee...ice cream is ice cream"? Nothing really enthusatic sounding about it. Here's where you went on a little rant about popcorn too.

"Those stores were never set up to just be a museum set. They were set up to generate revenue. If people didn't buy, then the most basic of business practices is to replace it with something that will. Demand drives it. If there is not a demand that makes it profitable, it will disappear. I'm talking about demand for something to buy, not something to look at."

Your reasoning confuses modern Disney practices with older ones and then rejects the older practice's existence when it contradicts your original assertion that all the stores on MS a) never existed for show and b) the assumption that they never made money, which neither you or I can confirm 100%. However, we know from statements found in older Disney press and journalistic materials that at least "show" was part of the intended shopping experience, whether you personally had any interest in that aspect or not.

The combination of these points is what made others go and then spend two pages trying to correct you. It now sounds as if you're just annoyed for getting caught posting an unpopular opinion online.