Magic Kingdom to lose ROA, Riverboat, and TSI for Cars Land

[Architectural Guinea Pig]

To put this more logically, WDW was designed for the masses, and DL became designed for the fans (once the original pressure on it was moved to WDW). Disney will continue to make the correct decisions that align with what their fans want in the original resort (albeit with a few blunders), but WDW, whose ultimate goal was to be the American Vacation itself, will always change to match what the public wants.

If we as fans would like to visit RoA, there are plenty of options around the world to do so. This is also why I’m not as happy about Splash because it was a change to not one but both resorts. If they gutted RoA at DL, the entire community would be furious.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I may not have a STEM background but I can say that whether or not the river can be salvaged, the fact is every extra dollar in maintenance costs that goes to the ROA complex is a dollar “wasted” when churned through a modern MBA mindset which working in corporate America I can help recreate.

Assuming a modern corporate KPI checklist using following metrics, spending maintenance costs to maintain “free” RoA attractions is actually a problem and one any corporate business analyst would likely balk at. The problem is whether this is the right way to run a theme park… but it’s definitely predictable.

Metrics like:
- increasing per capita, per person spending when individuals are in the park. This is driven by LL sales and food/merch. Massive fail. Because the RoA draws people away from spending money its existence actually hurts this metric. In fact even just mothballing it would at least push people to be forced to go back to Main Street to eat/shop or go to other IP based attractions.
- Optimizing Disney+ and existing Disney licensed IP synergies. The RoA fails here as well. There is really nothing on D+ that is tied to Tom Sawyer directly and it’s not a known franchise.
- Promoting the marketability of the parks segment - issue here is corporate sees “new” and “recognizable IP” as more marketable, goes with the last One.
- Increasing on property sales for deluxe resort rooms and amenities; including DVC - Fail here too. Why would I go to the hotel to get some R&R when I can just go unwind at RoA for an hour or 2? Again - in TDO’s mind - you want a “chill” place to unwind - that’s not covered in your standard admission, you should pay extra. Also deluxe resorts sell lightning land reservations which brings me back to our first point.
- Making the parks more safe and inclusive - This is a lesser direct risk since I’m not sure the properties are as problematic as they are considered “non-contemporary”. However safety means large bodies of water and play structures are legal liabilities, including OSHA, ADA, etc. Inclusive means properties that are not perceived as nationalistic and fit generic themes.

All true but makes me sad.

 

[mickEblu]

To put this more logically, WDW was designed for the masses, and DL became designed for the fans (once the original pressure on it was moved to WDW). Disney will continue to make the correct decisions that align with what their fans want in the original resort (albeit with a few blunders), but WDW, whose ultimate goal was to be the American Vacation itself, will always change to match what the public wants.

If we as fans would like to visit RoA, there are plenty of options around the world to do so. This is also why I’m not as happy about Splash because it was a change to not one but both resorts. If they gutted RoA at DL, the entire community would be furious.

I agree with most of this but I want to push back on the notion that are plenty of other options in the world to visit the ROA. IMO there are only four other places now to visit the ROA - Tokyo, Anaheim, Paris and Hong Kong. Sure there are rivers all over the world but how many of them have steamboats going around in circles, have jazz music playing in the background, the smell of popcorn in there air with rides like Haunted Mansion and Thunder Mountain just a hop, skip and a jump away. The ROA is part of the quintessential Disney castle park experience. So if you're a local and loved the ROA at MK you now have to hop on a plane for a minimum of 5 hours for that experience again. Granted, nature/ natural parks are amazing in their own right and should be experienced by more of us but to say there are plenty of options around the world is just not accurate. One of the things I love about Disneyland is that I can park my car and enjoy the ambiance of the Rivers of America, ride a rollercoaster in space or runaway mine train all on the same day. I feel like removing the ROA takes a big piece of the puzzle out of the castle park experience and it just cant be replaced with a Cars rally ride.

 

[mickEblu]

In the end it all comes down to escapism. That was Disneys bread and butter. The ROA is a masterclass in escapism. A cars Rally ride could never compare in that respect. Also remains to be seen how much of the attraction can be enjoyed by those not riding. The ROA could be enjoyed and appreciated by all.

 

[PiratesMansion]

To put this more logically, WDW was designed for the masses, and DL became designed for the fans (once the original pressure on it was moved to WDW). Disney will continue to make the correct decisions that align with what their fans want in the original resort (albeit with a few blunders), but WDW, whose ultimate goal was to be the American Vacation itself, will always change to match what the public wants.

If we as fans would like to visit RoA, there are plenty of options around the world to do so. This is also why I’m not as happy about Splash because it was a change to not one but both resorts. If they gutted RoA at DL, the entire community would be furious.

The trouble is, there's a very thin line between sentiments like this turning into 'Disney World is for stupid people so it's fine if they ruin it as long as the sacred Disneyland is spared', yuk yuk yuk, and the underlying assumptions that everything at Disneyland inherently has more value than anything at WDW, or that Disneyland gets "better" results because they have "better" fans. Not to say that that was your intent or view specifically, just that it seems to happen with irritating frequency among many, many people in this fandom.

I agree with most of this but I want to push back on the notion that are plenty of other options in the world to visit the ROA. IMO there are only four other places now to visit the ROA - Tokyo, Anaheim, Paris and Hong Kong.

*Three. Hong Kong doesn't have a ROA, just Jungle Cruise cosplaying as such in terms of layout.

 

[mickEblu]

The trouble is, there's a very thin line between sentiments like this turning into 'Disney World is for stupid people so it's fine if they ruin it as long as the sacred Disneyland is spared', yuk yuk yuk, and the underlying assumptions that everything at Disneyland inherently has more value than anything at WDW, or that Disneyland gets "better" results because they have "better" fans. Not to say that that was your intention specifically, just that it seems to happen with irritating frequency among many, many people in this fandom.

*Three. Hong Kong doesn't have a ROA, just Jungle Cruise cosplaying as such in terms of layout.

Hahah i originally didn’t have Hong Kong in there and decided to throw it in cuz I kind of thought it fit the bill.

 

[PiratesMansion]

Hahah i originally didn’t have Hong Kong in there and decided to throw it in cuz I kind of thought it fit the bill.

Shanghai also has a huge water feature (unnamed as far as I know) with canoes! But decidedly open for the bulk of it, which is a choice.

Experiencing Jungle Cruise with a ROA layout is a weird, weird experience. As is the corresponding humidity so powerful that even with like 20 fans in the queue going full blast, they do absolutely nothing to promote airflow or make the wait feel at all pleasant, even though they're trying very, very hard!

 

[mickEblu]

Shanghai also has a huge water feature (unnamed as far as I know) with canoes! But decidedly open for the bulk of it, which is a choice.

Experiencing Jungle Cruise with a ROA layout is a weird, weird experience. As is the corresponding humidity so powerful that even with like 20 fans in the queue going full blast, they do absolutely nothing to promote airflow or make the wait feel at all pleasant, even though they're trying very, very hard!

I know some people say Hong Kong has the best JC but for me the River looks way too wide open to get that nod.

 

[PiratesMansion]

I know some people say Hong Kong has the best JC but for the River looks way too wide open to get that nod.

The HK finale is nice, but I'd still take Tokyo or MK's as superior.

 

[mickEblu]

Over on the WDW side they seem more concerned with losing Muppets over the ROA. Wild. Although to be fair, the Muppets fate is still up in the air or at least hasn’t been confirmed. With the ROA, your team is down the 30 in the 4th quarter. It’s over. Time to turn off the TV.

 

[PiratesMansion]

Over on the WDW side they seem more concerned with losing Muppets over the ROA. Wild. Although to be fair, the Muppets fate is still up in the air or at least hasn’t been confirmed. With the ROA, your team is down the 30 in the 4th quarter. It’s over. Time to turn off the TV.

That is definitely baffling, but as you've said, permits for ROA have already been filed. It's definitely a goner. There's at least the illusion of a possibility that Muppets could stay.

I do think Muppetvision is underrated and I never quite understood why (aside from it being a 3D attraction at a resort populated by people who appreciate variability in experiences rather than things that are the same each time) people over never seemed to appreciate it. Perhaps it had too much DCA 1.0 stank on it at the time for people to warm up to it. I would certainly rather still have Muppetvision at DCA than Budget's PhilharMagic.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Tom Sawyer Island was a no-brainer to go, unless they were going to develop some kind of Tom Sawyer ride there.

Once that changes to something else, how do all the themey themey extra themey theme park connoisseurs justify a riverboat to X? Keeping it a riverboat limits what could go on the island while keeping the theme. Not saying it couldn’t be done, but a lot of ideas wouldn’t work.

I don’t know if the island is big enough for Villains (guessing not?) but I could see taking a boat (not a riverboat unless it was worked into the story) to Villains. (You’re on a riverboat and “something went wrong” - you’ve been re-routed to Villains Land.)

Anyhoo, without the island matching the theme, that reduces the point of the boat. Then that leads to why does the river exist? Shrink it or eliminate it.

Re: Villains: curious to see how that story develops. There isn’t a world where all the villains live together. I know it’s a fan favorite idea, but it’s not obvious how it would be explained, and how limited the villainy could be in a more kid-friendly park (at least in the daytime.) Will the kids be the heroes? If Snow White’s Scary Adventures was too scary, what could this be? Not-So-Scary Villains?

As usual, I keep an open mind until I see what’s up. I don’t put as high stakes on this as some of you. Even my one major disappointment (not making classic Star Wars lands) doesn’t ruin my day or my trip. It’s about getting away - which always happens, no matter what.

 

[mickEblu]

That is definitely baffling, but as you've said, permits for ROA have already been filed. It's definitely a goner. There's at least the illusion of a possibility that Muppets could stay.

I do think Muppetvision is underrated and I never quite understood why (aside from it being a 3D attraction at a resort populated by people who appreciate variability in experiences rather than things that are the same each time) people over never seemed to appreciate it. Perhaps it had too much DCA 1.0 stank on it at the time for people to warm up to it. I would certainly rather still have Muppetvision at DCA than Budget's PhilharMagic.

Right even with taking the hope for MuppetVision into account of does appear that people seem to have more of an affinity for them than the ROA. People around here at least.

I get the sense that I’d appreciate MuppetVision more today than I did on my first visit to DCA in 2001 and my second time seeing it as an AP in the early 2010’s. Wouldn’t be the first time my opinion evolved on an attraction. I’m looking at you ROTR and Finding Nemo.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

Over on the WDW side they seem more concerned with losing Muppets over the ROA. Wild. Although to be fair, the Muppets fate is still up in the air or at least hasn’t been confirmed. With the ROA, your team is down the 30 in the 4th quarter. It’s over. Time to turn off the TV.

It would be conceivably the end of Muppets representation in the parks so this is literally their “last stand”. Whereas no other Disney park is likely to bulldoze their RoA anytime soon, so there’s that. Maybe Tokyo someday, but I don’t have confidence they’ll knock this design out of the park to convince OLC.

 

[mickEblu]

It would be conceivably the end of Muppets representation in the parks so this is literally their “last stand”. Whereas no other Disney park is likely to bulldoze their RoA anytime soon, so there’s that. Maybe Tokyo someday, but I don’t have confidence they’ll knock this design out of the park to convince OLC.

I can appreciate this angle although it does feel like HOP Muppets is inevitable. But man when you factor in what the ROA does for MK vs what MV does for DHS it doesn’t compare IMO.

 

[BuzzedPotatoHead89]

I can appreciate this angle although it does feel like HOP Muppets is inevitable. But man when you factor in what the ROA does for MK vs what MV does for DHS it doesn’t compare IMO.

Most “normies” I’ve talked to think the idea of removing a RoA is insane. With Splash no one knew the characters, I think losing Muppets will be acceptable to the general public particularly if they move a new show to HoP as well since Liberty Square is likely to get facade changes alongside most of Frontierland to match the modern national park aesthetic.

But there’s a good chance even that changeover won’t happen until the end of the decade for optics reasons, unless they want to swap out CoP and bring it back to DL

 

[DLR92]

Over on the WDW side they seem more concerned with losing Muppets over the ROA. Wild. Although to be fair, the Muppets fate is still up in the air or at least hasn’t been confirmed. With the ROA, your team is down the 30 in the 4th quarter. It’s over. Time to turn off the TV.

I don’t understand demographics of WDW guest…
Muppets is good on television. I didn’t have any emotional ties with the one at DCA.

 

[Disney Irish]

Over on the WDW side they seem more concerned with losing Muppets over the ROA. Wild.

All the other reasons why the project is happening aside, this should tell you all you need to know. RoA is just not the sacred area over there compared to how its viewed here at DL.

 

[Parteecia]

I didn't like Muppets at DCA because they cheaped out and the ending didn't match the park.

Keep the riverboat and turn it into a Chicken of the Sea restaurant.

 

[DLR92]

I’m glad DL demographic aren’t the same as WDW. lol