Magic Kingdom No Longer to be Dry

[tomman710]

Ok, this is what we call "building on mud..." it makes the whole argument fall to pieces.

When you insert the word 'solely' into your postuation.. that means exclusively. Yet you then go and disprove yourself to say to will enhance the guest experience. Then you go onto basing your next claim based on the assertion that again, depends on 'solely'.

You also distort the principles of making money.. to infer it is to feed their pockets. They make money to be successful, which in turn they will be compensated for as part of their comp package. Don't make it sound like they are skimming the pot.

You then try to insert a new standard to demand 'where the money will go'.. come on, don't be foolish. Anytime someone is worried about where revenue will go with WDW.. all one needs to do is look at the scope of what WDW encompasses and realize there are a gazillion things you don't pay for and get the benefit of because margins where you do pay, feed the rest of the monster.

Will alcohol help the profit margins of a food service location?? In most cases, yes. But Disney isn't most cases. The mark-up on their other items is so high already, the boost from alcohol markup may actually be less than other establishments. Disney's prices for the alcohol aren't actually that high surprisingly.

Here's where we disconnect I guess ... I understand your point about my contradictions but I'd illustrate it this way ... very simply TDO said "How can we increase profits?" ... "Answer: Add alcohol" ... I personally don't believe that they considered guest satisfaction into the decision by the very fact that they are sort of shocked at the vocal backlash in the tradition break (evidence by the buzz word "tradition" being the delete factor from all posts under the Disney Parks Blog entry about this). Will some guests enjoy this? Yes (myself included) but my point was in my belief I don't think they factored guest reaction (positive or negative) into the decision making process. This was really all I was trying to say.

Yes it is a business, yes the goal is to make money but I really believe current TDO has crossed the line that where nothing is sacred, nothing matters, and guest satisfaction is irrelevant compared to the bottom line. There is a balance between customer satisfaction and the bottom line ... they just seem to not care about it. I believe they'd cut Peter Pan from the Magic Kingdom if it could make them an extra 5K in bonuses in a given year ... but maybe I am a cynic.

 

[flynnibus]

Here's where we disconnect I guess ... I understand your point about my contradictions but I'd illustrate it this way ... very simply TDO said...

Know what was 'very simple'? That you weren't there, and you have no insight at all to how the decisions were made. So very simply, can we stop inserting your opinion on the matter as factual? It's fine its your BELIEF, but lets wind back a bit to our old english classes and remember to not use the writer's personal belief interchangeably with cited facts. It's impossible to follow a poster who transparently fades back and forth between what their opinion is and what they believe to be fact.

 

[nytimez]

No fear, growlers are indeed legal in California. I've got a great 1L one I picked up at Stone a few years back

My understanding is there are more restrictions on growlers in California -- they have to be filled by the brewer and carry that brewer's label, etc. etc. Is that the still case there?

I would love it if it's like here, where beverage shops and even some supermarkets have Growler stations with a variety of beers from different brewers -- and they'll fill any growler, as long as it's clean.

 

[tomman710]

Know what was 'very simple'? That you weren't there, and you have no insight at all to how the decisions were made. So very simply, can we stop inserting your opinion on the matter as factual? It's fine its your BELIEF, but lets wind back a bit to our old english classes and remember to not use the writer's personal belief interchangeably with cited facts. It's impossible to follow a poster who transparently fades back and forth between what their opinion is and what they believe to be fact.

Well I didn't state that part as fact ... I prefaced the point with "to illustrate" and I was saying my illustration would be "very simple" to not prolong the argument. But fair point, I was not in the meetings.

I will say my opinions, while my beliefs, are still rooted in reality based off first hand knowledge of how many (I won't say "all") other Fortune 100/500 Company structures bonuses ... so to say that TDO makes decisions based off how it impacts their bonuses is not incorrect ... perhaps we don't know the full scope or breadth but based off inner workings of like minded companies and recent cuts/changes ... well putting two and two together is not a stretch.

However ... let me ask you this question because I really don't think we are far off, perhaps I am not eloquently stating my position ...

Do you think TDO made this decision solely to improve guest satisfaction?

 

[Brewmaster]

My understanding is there are more restrictions on growlers in California -- they have to be filled by the brewer and carry that brewer's label, etc. etc. Is that the still case there?

I would love it if it's like here, where beverage shops and even some supermarkets have Growler stations with a variety of beers from different brewers -- and they'll fill any growler, as long as it's clean.

You are correct, there are restrictions but there is movement to relax them going forward. Currently you can get a growler fill at a brewery and any store owned by a brewery with the proper permit(I.e. Stone Brewing). The current law requires the name and address of the brewery to be on the growler. What many are doing to satisfy the requirement are slapping a sticker/label on your growler with the requisite info. Brew pubs work the same way.

 

[Afondz]

Let me start by saying that I do not have children, however I go to Disney atleast once a year and it is by far my favorite place to vacation. I have been to Disney during Spring Break, summer vacation, in the middle of winter, and I have only experienced seeing someone tipsy on a few occasions, but it was never to the point that it was causing a problem for other guests. I enjoyed my 21st birthday in WDW and I spent the entire day drinking, however I knew better than to get drunk in the parks and waited until I went to DTD and then back to my hotel before I was even close to being drunk. I think that most people have this much common sense and will not get completely wasted in front of a bunch of children.

I enjoy having a drink or two throughout the day, and I also enjoy having a drink with dinner, that does not make me an alcoholic and it does not mean that I cannot go a day without drinking. I have never had an issue with the MK being dry, however I have often gone to one of the resorts for dinner, not just because I wanted a drink, but also because the dinner options in MK are not as good as at one at the surrounding resorts. I think that opening BOG is going to be a great thing for MK because it seems that they are trying to have a more upscale dining experience which may keep more adults/families in the park for dinner. I can only enjoy Crystal Palace or Tony's so many times for dinner before I am tired of it, and after a long day I enjoy sitting down and relaxing with a nice meal and a drink.

As others have said, its not as though anyone can just walk up to BOG, grab a drink and walk over to TLM, the restaurant will only be serving drinks with dinner, and as we all know, making a ADR is hard enough for one of the regular restaurants in WDW at 180 days out, I can only imagine how difficult it will be to make one for BOG, so I highly doubt there will be many, if any times during the year that people can just walk up to BOG and get a ressie.

MK is my favorite park because to me it is a place where I can escape the world and focus on what's important, spending time with the person I love. Even if they were to allow alcohol to be served throughout MK, it would not take away from that experience for me. I would enjoy having a drink during the day at MK, sometimes its nice to just sit on a bench, relax and people watch, but its not something I need. And just because MK is a place where I escape the world, it doesn't mean that I want to escape everything, it just means that for one day I can get away from people back at home, or watching the murder count in Philly rise on the news, or getting stuck in traffic.

Couldn't agree with you more. Last time I went, Jan 2012, was my first time there being 21+. I had a few drinks around the world at epcot, got a little tipsy (it takes me about one drink to feel anything, im such a light weight ) but never once did I plan on getting rip roaring drunk, and even if I DID I wouldnt be staggering and making a fool of myself, drunk fights, etc. People who LIKE doing that generally don't go to WDW they go to Cancun for vacation. Besides, my step father IS an alcoholic who brings his own drinks into MK, and he's never started a ruckus or created any disturbances to the guests. And I'm sure he isn't the only person who does that. Regardless, having some wine with dinner isn't going to turn MK into a frat house. I've never seen anyone at Epcot and thought " oh my that person is WASTED!" It's just not what people do when going to Disney. I can't think of anything worse than getting drunk, and not being able to ride the rides, or even worse not being able to remember it all. I don't know, everyones entitled to their own opinion but I think it's silly to be so worked up about this, it isn't like this is going to change the feel of Disney or turn it into a dump.

 

[Todd L]

Man...Not sure i like this!! 1 glass of booze is more than enough to make some people act badly!!

 

[flynnibus]

Do you think TDO made this decision solely to improve guest satisfaction?

I don't think anything is absolute - there is obvious mutual benefit to both sides. So no, I don't see this happening 'solely' for either reason. There was likely asks to have it on the menu from guests, and the chefs.. and there is incentive from a Food&Beverage perspective in adding a high margin item. Items, we must remember are NOT part of the DDP, hence adding more upside for the F&B division. Something the menu makers could have argued was necessary given the menu choices and DDP pressures as well.

The head of the division said it best in an interview... 'there was more reasons to do it, then not'.

 

[wdwfan100]

You're absolutely right, I had totally forgotten that Miller-Coors is foreign-owned as well.

One of my favorite brewers is actually now owned by InBev -- Goose Island. Honker's Ale is one of my favorite "session" ales, and it (thankfully) hasn't changed (yet) despite the new corporate ownership. They also make a number of other great brews (and if anyone visits Chicago, their brewery-restaurant is excellent).

I like some of the brews from Weyebacher (especially Verboten and Heresy), Arrogant from Stone and any number of Hefeweizens from both here in the US and Germany (especially Weihenstephaner). And I always enjoy a Sam Adams -- I wait all year for their Winter Ale.

In NY -- where I won't be much longer -- we have excellent laws on growlers so many beer distributors now have taps set up and you can take home a growler of beer from small brewers that don't bottle. They're often hyper-local, so the names won't mean much outside of the area, but I've enjoyed a number of brews from Greenport Harbor, Captain Lawrence and Long Ireland. My understanding is I won't be so lucky in California.

Bringing this back on topic, I think the biggest "miss" at WDW isn't the lack of booze at MK -- it's the missed opportunity to offer so many more beers in World Showcase.

And you? Which brews do you like?

I am a hop head. I love IPA's first and foremost. The over all ale family appeals to me in general. Currently my favorite is from Bells Brewery out of Michigan called Two-Hearted ale. Goose Island IPA is also quite good. There was an Irish lager called Kinsale that I really liked but have not been able to find for a while. I am all over the map though. I appreciate different beers for different situations. I enjoy a good Porter if it is toward the end of the evening and I want to wind down. I even enjoy a Budweiser with a sandwich on a patio. A Reisdorf Kolsch is good on a hot day, etc. I am not a big fan of the belgiun styles though.

 

[Amused to Death]

I would love to see them open a nice gastro pub style place with a huge selection of craft beers and a good bar menu in DTD. The kind of bar where they would constantly change out beers brewed from around the country and you would always be surprised with something unique every time you went. There are so many good breweries making really good beer and the craft beer industry has taken off so I think there would be enough interest to keep the place in business. Definitely not a fit for the MK but I could use another good reason to go to DTD.

World of Beer - Dr. Phillips

http://wobusa.com/Locations/DrPhillips/Contact.aspxAbout 6-7 miles from Downtown Disney. A great place to get away from the tourist crowd. 69 ever-changing drafts and over 500 bottles to choose from — beer lover's heaven!

 

[tomman710]

The head of the division said it best in an interview... 'there was more money for us to make reasons to do it, then not'.

I edited your post.

I agree, I am not trying to argue with you and perhaps I went overboard with the absolutes I just am highly skeptical of TDO's decision making process of late.

I feel the driving force behind all their decisions is the bottom line (I believe to increase their bonuses), I think guest satisfaction is an afterthought and in the sporadic event that the two ideologies are interconnected well ... that's just a bonus (that they embrace and market).

That is how I feel about this decision, they made it for these reasons;

1. It makes profit.
2. It makes profit.
3. It makes profit.
4. It makes profit.
5. It makes profit.
6. Guests will appreciate it.

So, did I go overboard speaking in absolutes, yes.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

I'm fairly indifferent on this whole topic, but I did want to remind people that the issue of alcohol in the parks killed the park Walt wanted to put in St. Louis. The whole project was basically a done deal, when conflict erupted between Walt and Anheuser-Busch. St. Louis was/is a beer town, and when Walt refused to sell it in his park intended to be a mile down the street from the brewery, they were NOT pleased. A fight ensued, and Walt decided his park wouldn't be built. Sad story.

A quick google search brings up a handful of articles on the topic... One extreme makes it sound like Walt considered AB's demand to sell beer as a threat and pulled out because of that... The other extreme sounds as if it was totally about the alcohol.

I only bring that up to illustrate the point that obviously it was a big deal to Walt. Whether that matters anymore or not, I'm not sure. I honestly don't really care. I just thought the story should be brought up, as it's in context.

 

[flynnibus]

I edited your post.

Which I find rude and offensive to make it look like a user posted something they did not. I know the fad and it's deplorable and I ask that you edit that out and do not misrepresent my words.

I feel the driving force behind all their decisions is the bottom line (I believe to increase their bonuses), I think guest satisfaction is an afterthought and in the sporadic event that the two ideologies are interconnected well ... that's just a bonus (that they embrace and market).

You're distorting the motivations people have lead onto.

What is constant is they are pushing for performance from the product. If they are successful in their goals, they get compensated. The rub comes when the product ISN'T succeeding.. so then what? The attitude people are upset about is the willingness to sacrafice the show or guest experience to find growth or margins by manipulation rather than actually GROWING the product and demand.

That is very different from sitting around going 'business is doing 15% and healthy.. how do I make it 18% just so I get paid more' - which is the line you've seemed to have extracted from other discussions.

One is about prop'ing up the product to sustain what are failing/flat numbers. The other is about milking things for fake inflation. VERY different.

 

[tomman710]

Which I find rude and offensive to make it look like a user posted something they did not. I know the fad and it's deplorable and I ask that you edit that out and do not misrepresent my words.

Yikes. Didn't realize we got to this point ... I thought we were just having a friendly discussion. I didn't mean to offend you and what I did was hardly intended to be rude, it was just to make a joke. I apologize.

You're distorting the motivations people have lead onto.

What is constant is they are pushing for performance from the product. If they are successful in their goals, they get compensated. The rub comes when the product ISN'T succeeding.. so then what? The attitude people are upset about is the willingness to sacrafice the show or guest experience to find growth or margins by manipulation rather than actually GROWING the product and demand.

That is very different from sitting around going 'business is doing 15% and healthy.. how do I make it 18% just so I get paid more' - which is the line you've seemed to have extracted from other discussions.

One is about prop'ing up the product to sustain what are failing/flat numbers. The other is about milking things for fake inflation. VERY different.

I don't want to prolong the discussion. I feel like we aren't far off but the limitations of my articulating my points and the limitations of clear discernment from message board chatter is making this difficult.

I want to bring out two things though ... first, for the record, I have no problem with change/cuts/whatever as long as the added/extra revenue is invested back into the parks. This should be done, not because I want new stuff, but because it's smart business practice to in essence, "keep them coming back". I think you and I are on the same page on this ... GROW THE PRODUCT. Growing the product will increase gross profit. This is something they seem to be shortsighted on.

Secondly, just background on me, I am not basing my opinions on anything I have read on here but first hand knowledge of executive level business practice from similar Fortune 100/500 companies that I have personally worked for and served in an executive capacity. Maybe it's not ideal to take my experiences and extrapolate them but I'd illustrate it this way ... I'm worried about if I'll get sea sick if I take a cruise. I've been on a Disney Cruise can I take that experience and say I have an idea of what it is like on a similar cruise line ... yes, maybe a few things might be different but I feel confident that I have an idea of what it's like.

 

[COProgressFan]

I feel the driving force behind all their decisions is the bottom line (I believe to increase their bonuses), I think guest satisfaction is an afterthought and in the sporadic event that the two ideologies are interconnected well ... that's just a bonus (that they embrace and market).

That is how I feel about this decision, they made it for these reasons;

1. It makes profit.
2. It makes profit.
3. It makes profit.
4. It makes profit.
5. It makes profit.
6. Guests will appreciate it.

So, did I go overboard speaking in absolutes, yes.

Given TDO's track record in recent years, I think that more than likely summarizes the though process in making this decision.

 

[The MaD Hatter]

Can't wait for their next great idea -- the Tinkerbell "Absinthe Green Fairy" M&G!

 

[ScoutN]

Can't wait for their next great idea -- the Tinkerbell "Absinthe Green Fairy" M&G!

Sign me up now!

 

[Skippy's Pal]

Another sign of the coming apocalypse.

Yup. Looks like the Mayan calendar will be right after all.

 

[Camera1950s]

This is an issue near and dear to me so I have a comment.
First I am not apposed to a person having a little wine or beer at dinner. I am concerned greatly about what this says about Disney management. That Disney Management has now "Jumped the Shark". They have have few if any good new ideas and are having to resort to this in a desperate attempt to slow the decay at MK. For way to long management believed MK was like the Roman Empire, "Too big to Fail". What Walt did to make his parks successful was to be in good ways diffrent from everyone else. His park was themed, clean, and most of all built for the entire family. Now MK has a risk of losing it's number 1 spot. You do not get to be number 1 by being just like every one else. That has never worked for any nation. My fear is that the same "Jumped the Shark" management will see this as a quick fix and open it up the rest of the way for all of MK. Then MK will be one step closer to being "Like Everyone Else" and lose it's positive differance. We say that open drunkenness will not come to MK under this plan and it may not. But it is already at EPCOT (it is easy to find drunks there) and if let go will be at MK. MK will no longer be the CLEAN FAMILY PARK. With that I believe it will lose it's #1 status for sure. The answer is not to run to the quick fix but replace the unimaginitive management that did nothing for decades. That is the real crime!

 

[PirateFrank]

A crime?

No a crime is when someone steals something. It's when someone assaults someone else.
This is not a crime.....it's a business decision that you don't like, but it's not a crime. Cut the extremo brewing!

Why are all the rediculous points made in this thread from posters with less than 10 posts to their name?