Magic Kingdom Monorails at Reduced Capacity Due to Beam Damage

[draybook]

the dark side of USO, SW, and everything else made that decision for us..:shrug:

What?

 

[wdw71fan]

Highly unlikely that it was frost heave. Temperature in the region has not dropped below freezing, even during this cold snap.

It was 30 degrees at my house 2 nights ago, and 34 last night... 30 is most certainly below freezing..


Why is this important? I live 1/2 mile from MK..


It has been COLD , at least by florida standards. This isn't a maintenance issue, it has been cold.. and things like this happen... Kudos to disney for taking notice and taking appropriate steps to keep guests safe.

 

[Rasvar]

It was 30 degrees at my house 2 nights ago, and 34 last night... 30 is most certainly below freezing..


Why is this important? I live 1/2 mile from MK..


It has been COLD , at least by florida standards.

I was referring to freeze damage to the concrete that was mentioned by another poster. You would have to be significantly below freezing for a long period of time for actual concrete damage from frozen water. Too warm for water to freeze in the concrete because the concrete would still be above freezing. Never said it wasn't cold by Florida standards. And I agree it is not a "maintenance" issue. It is just a little bit of age and cold affecting the beam. No safety issue. However, a fix to avoid the inconvenience would be significant cost and highly disruptive. So it is not likely to happen anytime soon. So I think we agree.

 

[stitch2008]

I was referring to freeze damage to the concrete that was mentioned by another poster. You would have to be significantly below freezing for a long period of time for actual concrete damage from frozen water. Too warm for water to freeze in the concrete because the concrete would still be above freezing. Never said it wasn't cold by Florida standards. And I agree it is not a "maintenance" issue. It is just a little bit of age and cold affecting the beam. No safety issue. However, a fix to avoid the inconvenience would be significant cost and highly disruptive. So it is not likely to happen anytime soon. So I think we agree.

Quoted for truth. Cold weather can make you tear your hair out. Theres all these little things that it can cause that can really bother you.

Do I even need to comment on the lack of matenence in this one :shrug:

No because it isnt a maintenance issue. Its the sad fact of structures in the cold. So its best if you keep that yourself. :brick:

 

[disney fan 13]

What?

sorry, typed too fast... I meant to say was I started started staying offsite because of other entertainment options in Orlando, which many find to be the dark side or no go land...

 

[PlaneJane]

I was referring to freeze damage to the concrete that was mentioned by another poster. You would have to be significantly below freezing for a long period of time for actual concrete damage from frozen water. Too warm for water to freeze in the concrete because the concrete would still be above freezing. Never said it wasn't cold by Florida standards. And I agree it is not a "maintenance" issue. It is just a little bit of age and cold affecting the beam. No safety issue. However, a fix to avoid the inconvenience would be significant cost and highly disruptive. So it is not likely to happen anytime soon. So I think we agree.

So.. if a monorail beam high in the air doesn't get icy in cold weather... right at freezing temps.. Then why does a road bridge?

Bridges and overpasses become slick and icy before the roads in general do, because they are open to the cold air from below, rather than being insulated by being in contact with the ground, as the roads and streets are. Hence the "Bridge may be icy" road signs you see

 

[Jim Handy]

I guess the monorail is no longer the shining star of the Walt Disney World Resort it once was. Must be another thing they're determined to kill by just letting go.

 

[stitch2008]

I guess the monorail is no longer the shining star of the Walt Disney World Resort it once was. Must be another thing they're determined to kill by just letting go.

Thanks for not reading this thread and realizing this is a issue caused by the weather and the fix is not simple; and at the end of the day may not fix the issue.

 

[WDW1974]

Cold weather is now an excuse for Disney's crumbling monorail system? Really??!!

That's the best ya got?

'Cause WDW has been running trains in below freezing temps since 1971 and I've never heard one person in rails ever say it caused any issues at all (hell, thunderstorms -- often violent -- never used to be an issue at all either!).

Amazing.

Can we get one of the new InsideEars to comment? I want a real expert's opinion.

~16 hours~

 

[Jim Handy]

Thanks for not reading this thread and realizing this is a issue caused by the weather and the fix is not simple; and at the end of the day may not fix the issue.

Spirit stole my reply! Read what he said.

Anyway, my post actually isn't bad...this topic relates nicely to the overall poor condition of the Walt Disney World Monorail System...Your Highway in the Sky to the Magic Kingdom!

 

[stitch2008]

Cold weather is now an excuse for Disney's crumbling monorail system? Really??!!

That's the best ya got?

'Cause WDW has been running trains in below freezing temps since 1971 and I've never heard one person in rails ever say it caused any issues at all (hell, thunderstorms -- often violent -- never used to be an issue at all either!).

Amazing.

Can we get one of the new InsideEars to comment? I want a real expert's opinion.

~16 hours~

Cause thunderstorms have nothing to do with materials expanding and contrasting. Heat and cold do. What me and Rasvar are talking about is related to stuff that has been happening for 41 years. 41 years of expansion and contraction.

There really is nothing you can do. I mean you can try but the issue is going to rear its ugly head again and laugh at you. Where I work we have had to shut down rides for an entire day(even a week during a season) because its too cold. In the most recent instance, the track of our coaster was so contracted that we couldn't run the ride. I know it happened cause I spent about 4 hours freezing my butt of inspecting that ride to make sure it was all in good shape. For another example, the last place I worked at, we had to close a ride for the entire final weekend of the season. We had to cause one, just one part of the ride was contracted too much. But really it's a combo of age and weather that cause. Not lack of maintenance. You can have the best program in the world(as I think we did with my last example) and it can still happen. Sometimes you just have to roll with it.

Thats my experience at least.

 

[RSoxNo1]

This was going on over New Years when we were there. Trains were going painfully slow between Grand Floridian and the Magic Kingdom, and at one point, Monorail Red sat on the express line inside the Poly for at least 45 minutes.

Hopefully this isn't a sign of a greater issue (which it likely is), and instead it's just an issue with the concrete expanding and contracting.

 

[stitch2008]

This was going on over New Years when we were there. Trains were going painfully slow between Grand Floridian and the Magic Kingdom, and at one point, Monorail Red sat on the express line inside the Poly for at least 45 minutes.

Hopefully this isn't a sign of a greater issue (which it likely is), and instead it's just an issue with the concrete expanding and contracting.

There arent a whole lot of things it could be. The most likely cause the expansion and contraction. And what do you do to fix it? Not much you can do. Just deal with it as it comes unfortunately. Just make sure no real damages is gonna come. And trust me, you'd know if there was a bigger problem.

 

[monothingie]

This is an older picture from the on the resort beam heading from the GF to MK. Your first expansion joint is at pylon 112. (note the difference in that pylons construction and 111's) I believe your next expansion joint is at the top of the incline at 106. I'm no structural engineer, but that pylons position along with the curve could cause a lot of trouble when that concrete contracts in the cold.

 

[Tom]

:brick::brick::brick:

Some people just don't get it... It sounds like a frost break in the concrete. I have seen it happen to brand new roads, so what they are doing to small world has nothing to do with it. I know, I know, never let the facts get in the way of a rant, right?:wave:

It's not frost break in the concrete, as others have pointed out. This concrete is over 40 years old. There's no moisture in it. Concrete only breaks in cold weather when the water inside it expands. When you see busted up concrete roads or sidewalks, it's because the moisture in the ground BELOW it froze and expanded...upward.

..without frost heaves being the cause, we're now talking about a true lack of preventative maintenance. Why again, are they spending all of this money to allow people to book fastpass reservations for Nemo 180 days out?

Preventive maintenance to remedy this situation would require an extensive shut-down of the system, as they'd have to completely replace an expansion joint and/or modify a pylon and/or beam. As far as we know, this is a very isolated incident that happens only when the temperatures reach rare lows in central Florida. The engineers that designed the system had to draw a line somewhere.

No you seem to missing the point. It is very possible that this IS a new section, and they got poor concrete, it happens. Even with proper preventative maintenance, frost damage happens.

Unless I missed something, the only "new" monorail work that's taken place since 1982 was the tractor spur they just installed. This isn't poor concrete.

That makes sense. Sounds like the beam has probably slid slightly out of alignment when it gets cold and then moves back into place when it warms up.It would probably take shutting down the monorails a couple of days to realign those beams so they don't get out of alignment on cold mornings. It is not going to fall off but you probably have a slightly bumpy ride and if it is far enough, you have to deal with the electrical contacts as if you are doing a beam change through the switch beam making sure all of the contacts reset as you go through the gap since the contacts also spread at the expansion joint.

Yes.

Do I even need to comment on the lack of matenence in this one :shrug:

No, no need to mention it. The presumed lack of maintenance may or may not have to do with this issue at all. It's likely the result of natural phenomena related to cold weather's affect on construction materials.

So.. if a monorail beam high in the air doesn't get icy in cold weather... right at freezing temps.. Then why does a road bridge?

Bridges and overpasses become slick and icy before the roads in general do, because they are open to the cold air from below, rather than being insulated by being in contact with the ground, as the roads and streets are. Hence the "Bridge may be icy" road signs you see

Your description is correct, but I'm not following the logic as it relates to this issue. Unless you're working under the assumption that this was frost related damage.

I guess the monorail is no longer the shining star of the Walt Disney World Resort it once was. Must be another thing they're determined to kill by just letting go.

That's quite a conclusion to jump to.

Cold weather is now an excuse for Disney's crumbling monorail system? Really??!!

That's the best ya got?

'Cause WDW has been running trains in below freezing temps since 1971 and I've never heard one person in rails ever say it caused any issues at all (hell, thunderstorms -- often violent -- never used to be an issue at all either!).

Amazing.

Can we get one of the new InsideEars to comment? I want a real expert's opinion.

~16 hours~

Right.

Cause thunderstorms have nothing to do with materials expanding and contrasting. Heat and cold do. What me and Rasvar are talking about is related to stuff that has been happening for 41 years. 41 years of expansion and contraction.

There really is nothing you can do. I mean you can try but the issue is going to rear its ugly head again and laugh at you...But really it's a combo of age and weather that cause. Not lack of maintenance. You can have the best program in the world(as I think we did with my last example) and it can still happen. Sometimes you just have to roll with it.

Exactly. You can design for ALMOST anything, and they took into account as much precautionary measures as possible by installing the toothed expansion joints that they used. Recent temperatures are a rare extreme, and were probably just something they decided was an acceptable level of tolerance when designing the system.

 

[Figment1986]

"Bridge freezes before road"

my guess, since the affected area was over the water (I went over that section 3 times today, once on resort which had the problem and twice on express) that it was a contributed factor... and how slow we were going felt like it may have been in override but i could be wrong...

 

[Tip Top Club]

Ya'll this is not a big deal.

It's an expansion joint, as has been mentioned the section between The Grand Floridian and Magic Kingdom is higher up then a great deal of the rest of the beam, it is also over water, those two things mean that it gets colder up there and the expansion joints up there will expand more then say the areas close to the ground around TTC.

This happens every winter, they run at a slightly reduced speed just in this section and as soon as they pass it get back up to regular speed.

Please don't confuse this with a maintenance issue, this has nothing to do with the budget, or with the added train maintenance, it is pretty much entirely unrelated. That being said Please also don't confuse this an excuse for any lack of maintenance, I fully realize that they have dug themselves into a whole with Train Maintenance, but this is (just to reiterate) almost entirely unrelated to that point.

I would like to repeat that this happens EVERY WINTER. It's fine. The only reason anyone is freaking out about it is because some blog decided to post it.

 

[PirateFrank]

Preventive maintenance to remedy this situation would require an extensive shut-down of the system, as they'd have to completely replace an expansion joint and/or modify a pylon and/or beam. As far as we know, this is a very isolated incident that happens only when the temperatures reach rare lows in central Florida. The engineers that designed the system had to draw a line somewhere.

I've rested my case on this last night. But your comments only, forgive the pun, cement my case further. Unless you can make a case that this is a planned-for engineering limitation which required such a slowdown back as far as winter 71-72 (which is going to be severely difficult for me and the rest of the rational headed denizens and spirits here), then this is a structural *problem* and not an acceptable design constraint. To that end, the fact that it's not being addressed, regardless of the cost. Heck, it can't be more than a BILLION dollars, right?, right?

We've watched TDO spend (or continue to spend) a budget north of a BILLION dollars for noisemakers at the queues, TV monitors showing small world characters with the same quality animation as cartman from southpark and a new fast pass system that will make the problems caused by the current one look like a fairy tale dream.

I don't care how much money it costs, if you have a structural issue that requires a heavily used passenger ride system to slow to a crawl for safety reasons....you'd think that the cost would be immediately realized by TDO to correct the problem....What happens if a monorail car jumps the track (or the track falls out from underneath) one year? What happens when 10-20 people die in such an accident. Will the cost have been too much then?!?!?!

I guarantee you, in the face of such a tragic accident, guests would gladly accept a shutdown of the loop for a proper structural repair. Will people bi*ch and moan about it both there and here? Yup! You betcha! But I strongly suspect the reaction will be far worse when something more serious happens.

This is the concern I have. We're not talking about TDO not spending the money on a few rabbits and bears in splash mountain in favor of screwing people out of spontaneity on their WDW trip. We're talking about TDO not spending the money on absolutely necessary passenger safety in favor of putting Cartman and Kenny on small world.

How anyone can view my concerns with an opposing defensive position is mind boggling. Hey, it's ok!! So long as you get your X-pass and your meet and greets, right? Who cares who dies on the way to the MK, right?

 

[PhilharMagician]

I have seen a few of the expansion joints right at the edge of separation a few years ago an the temps were in the upper 30's. I can see this being a problem. The beams would not be in any danger of falling if this were the case since they are sopported by 2 separate columns on each side of the joint in these locations. I could however become a bump for the monorail tires to go over and could result in a flat if hit aggresivly enough.

 

[MeandMickey]

I am no imagineer, or engineer even; but I have always wondered why they don't construct a monorail system out of the same rails that they make steel roller coasters out of. This system works fine for roller coasters that exceed 400 ft. high, contains hundreds of feet of track and can run multiple trains on that track at the same time. A new high end blockbuster roller coaster at a theme park may run $50-100 million to construct, but brings in quite a few revenues during it's first years online. Straighten out the tracks of a roller coaster and you have the length of the resort monorail lines. Then factor out the enigeering and extra support a coaster needs and a steel monorail track should be cheaper to build than the current concrete system. A newer built steel track monorail may be more economic, faster (yet safer), need less maintanence and may even let Disney expand to other onsite properties. Oops, did I say that out loud?