News Lou the manatee and three dolphins being relocated from EPCOT

Figments Friend

Well-Known Member
The whole concept of keeping animals caged up for humans enjoyment to look at is extremely weird.

I understand if it’s a critically endangered species, or has severe health issues where they can’t survive in the wild…but otherwise the concept of animals at zoos (yes that includes animal kingdom) is extreme, extremely weird.
Humans have a natural interest in viewing other life forms they share this planet with.

For many, our first introduction to such life forms is viewing them when we are children In a captive environment.
Zoos, fairs, circuses, aquariums, and the like.

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Haymarket

Well-Known Member
Humans have a natural interest in viewing other life forms they share this planet with.
For many, our first introduction to such life forms is viewing them when we are children In a captive environment.
Zoos, fairs, circuses, aquariums, and the like.
How far back are we going? Before color TV?

We have YouTube and TikTok now, as well as public broadcasting and Animal Planet—in 4K and even 8K.

I'm glad the trend in the developed world is to leave the retrograde exhibiting of wild animals (mammals in particular) to China, India, and other developing countries.
 
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CoasterFan27

Active Member
Humans have a natural interest in viewing other life forms they share this planet with.

For many, our first introduction to such life forms is viewing them when we are children In a captive environment.
Zoos, fairs, circuses, aquariums, and the like.

-
We used to have dancing bears too, locked up in tiny cages in circus trucks.

It's possible to interact and appreciate animals in habitats suited to their needs, and not at all for sentient and intelligent creatures like elephants and whales.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
Humans have a natural interest in viewing other life forms they share this planet with.
For many, our first introduction to such life forms is viewing them when we are children In a captive environment.
Zoos, fairs, circuses, aquariums, and the like.


For some animals, it is the only reason the species are still here/not endangered/threatened or at that risk anymore.

People also need to be careful about the words like "happy" and "dignity" when in the animal world. Those are very human specific traits with the way we use the words.

Animals have needs and content. If an animal does not have its needs met, it will not breed, eat or otherwise.
The fact that animals traditionally live as long or longer in captivity as well the fact we have learned to care for their needs on the planet better through these facilities means better things for their natural occurring environments. Even to the point of bettering themselves and their own practices. If AZA locations really did not care, they themselves should not be better, yet they too have grown to do things better the same way any professional husbandry does with science and development.

Of course, one can disagree with hundreds to thousands of marine biologists and experts on these teams, but you go into a weird extremist territory of feelings when you do.
 

Quietmouse

Well-Known Member
For some animals, it is the only reason the species are still here/not endangered/threatened or at that risk anymore.

People also need to be careful about the words like "happy" and "dignity" when in the animal world. Those are very human specific traits with the way we use the words.

Animals have needs and content. If an animal does not have its needs met, it will not breed, eat or otherwise.
The fact that animals traditionally live as long or longer in captivity as well the fact we have learned to care for their needs on the planet better through these facilities means better things for their natural occurring environments. Even to the point of bettering themselves and their own practices. If AZA locations really did not care, they themselves should not be better, yet they too have grown to do things better the same way any professional husbandry does with science and development.

Of course, one can disagree with hundreds to thousands of marine biologists and experts on these teams, but you go into a weird extremist territory of feelings when you do.


I think that’s great and all but the point still stands that it’s weird to gain enjoyment, from a human perspective, to see an animal locked up in a, “themed cage” and have the animal forced to live that way for the rest of their life.

Again, I understand the endanger species or animal unfit to live in the wild. But there are millions of animals across our nations zoos that don’t fit that criteria and are locked up in cages for the pure enjoyment of spectators. It’s sickening and weird.
 

Quietmouse

Well-Known Member
Humans have a natural interest in viewing other life forms they share this planet with.

For many, our first introduction to such life forms is viewing them when we are children In a captive environment.
Zoos, fairs, circuses, aquariums, and the like.

-

Still doesn’t make it any less of a weird concept to trap and cage animals that live in the wild for the purpose of entertainment for humans.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
I think that’s great and all but the point still stands that it’s weird to gain enjoyment, from a human perspective, to see an animal locked up in a, “themed cage” and have the animal forced to live that way for the rest of their life.

Again, I understand the endanger species or animal unfit to live in the wild. But there are millions of animals across our nations zoos that don’t fit that criteria and are locked up in cages for the pure enjoyment of spectators. It’s sickening and weird.

You are using the term "themed cage" as if it is imprisonment and an absolute evil for the animal. It is ok to be honest and say that plenty of places have great care for their animals and have lives that are fulfilling to what the animals would often do in the wild, or better. Entertainment can come from appreciation. If you want to analyze it and make a Seinfeld like bit of "why do we do this?" that is a fun philosophy, but no need to insult others.
You can phrase child acting to make it just as sickening in theory. Yet, I imagine you have no issue watching movies with children in acting roles?


Gaining appreciation to see an animal well taken care of is not something that everyone should feel guilty about.


I think calling others the actions of sickening and weird gets into dangerous territory and not exactly diplomatic on a subject plenty if not more are doing things about than the other take.
 
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Doberge

True Bayou Magic
Premium Member
This might be picky but I appreciate the headline as it's writen "Lou the manatee." The article's language "a manatee named Lou" is being copied and pasted all over and it feels impersonal/detached and weird. "Lou the manatee" emphasizes the name first and feels more personal.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
I think removing the dolphins is for the best, but they really need to invest in more aquatic life. The last time I was at EPCOT, the main tank at the Seas looked almost barren compared to other major aquariums.
 

Haymarket

Well-Known Member
For some animals, it is the only reason the species are still here/not endangered/threatened or at that risk anymore.

People also need to be careful about the words like "happy" and "dignity" when in the animal world. Those are very human specific traits with the way we use the words.

Animals have needs and content. If an animal does not have its needs met, it will not breed, eat or otherwise.
The fact that animals traditionally live as long or longer in captivity as well the fact we have learned to care for their needs on the planet better through these facilities means better things for their natural occurring environments. Even to the point of bettering themselves and their own practices. If AZA locations really did not care, they themselves should not be better, yet they too have grown to do things better the same way any professional husbandry does with science and development.

Of course, one can disagree with hundreds to thousands of marine biologists and experts on these teams, but you go into a weird extremist territory of feelings when you do.

Individual wild animals are not responsible for the preservation of their species: they as individuals are not rightfully obligated to live in captivity, and be made to reproduce, because humans have gone so far as to put their species in peril.

Wild and/or sentient animals are not rightfully subject to animal husbandry.

Of course, one can disagree about this with Western academia's most authoritative ethicists and philosophers, with what is now widely accepted mainstream thought among them, but one is opting for ignorant, retrograde ways of thinking when one does.

The AZA approved of the treatment of elephants by Ringling Brothers (Feld Entertainment) and the use of white tigers for entertainment by what was then MGM Mirage: it's hardly an arbiter of contemporary ethics.

Rather, the AZA is an industry lobby like the ABA and AMA, comprised of self-interested professionals and businesses, including "nonprofits" with handsomely compensated executives, aimed at "self-regulation" to forestall any possible implementation of substantive regulatory oversight by state authorities.

That said, I'm so pleased that the old, retrograde way of thinking if fading away in advanced countries. One or two more generations, and it'll be in the dustbin of history in the developed world.

(Sadly, ignorance and the retrograde way of thinking about wildlife is still mainstream in places like mainland China, which is why so many AZA-accredited "experts" have headed there to teach locals how to, e.g., make orcas "dance" to pop music. A step above bear-baiting, I suppose.)

 
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Haymarket

Well-Known Member
I agree with your opposition to animal captivity, I’m not sure why you’re framing it in this way. It’s not as if the West is blameless in this regard.
The West is not at all blameless—e.g., the zoo is a relic of the Victorian era. That said, in that sentence I'm emphasizing the trend in the West. I apologize if I wasn't clear enough, and I thank you for the feedback.

As to why I'm contrasting the current trend in the West with the current fashion in mainland China, well, I know a substantial plurality of those commenting here are fervent sinophobes, so I'm framing it the way that I am to highlight possible tensions/contradictions between their sinophobia and their retrograde opinions on the treatment of wild animals.

I myself am not a sinophobe: I'm East Asian, and my comment history proves that I oppose sinophobia.
 
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Andrew C

You know what's funny?
You are using the term "themed cage" as if it is imprisonment and an absolute evil for the animal. It is ok to be honest and say that plenty of places have great care for their animals and have lives that are fulfilling to what the animals would often do in the wild, or better. Entertainment can come from appreciation. If you want to analyze it and make a Seinfeld like bit of "why do we do this?" that is a fun philosophy, but no need to insult others.
You can phrase child acting to make it just as sickening in theory. Yet, I imagine you have no issue watching movies with children in acting roles?


Gaining appreciation to see an animal well taken care of is not something that everyone should feel guilty about.


I think calling others the actions of sickening and weird gets into dangerous territory and not exactly diplomatic on a subject plenty if not more are doing things about than the other take.
I think there is an appropriate balance and should continue to find that. It is likely that zoos will always have their place, but will continue to evolve.
 

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