Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[ConfettiCupcake]

Why does Disney need to explain anything and potentially tick off governments and tax laws by pinning the blame on them…. A little research done by a fan site pretty much explained what is going on or at least some reasoning why its happening… we saw what happened in Anaheim and Florida when they got involved with interfering with Govt policies….

When international guests can already book and pay for vacations and components for that vacation from home, could pre purchase Genie+ when that was a feature Disney offered, and could book FP+ from home when it existed, I think it’s more than fair to expect something out of Disney beyond ‘you can book when you arrive’. Historically international guests have not been left out of offerings like this.

These aren’t a tiny minority of guests who just happen to be finding Disney. WDW has a booking arm for certain groups of international guests complete with separate incentives to encourage them to visit. They’re actively courting them. I think they’re owed a proper response, even if that’s a more firmly telling those guests this is not changing, allowing them to tweak plans as needed.

 

[GoofGoof]

Why does Disney need to explain anything and potentially tick off governments and tax laws by pinning the blame on them…. A little research done by a fan site pretty much explained what is going on or at least some reasoning why its happening… we saw what happened in Anaheim and Florida when they got involved with interfering with Govt policies….

Why explain anything? They are alienating a group of loyal customers. Simple reason. I‘m not sure what you mean when you say a fan site explained what is going on. I’ve seen some good theories here but nothing definitive. If the reason is related to privacy law then just say that. If the reason is related to sales tax then again, just say that. How is that interfering with gov‘t policies? Even better, figure out a work around and offer it to your customers.

 

[osian]

ETA: I don't know for sure that @wdwmagic owns no assets in Switzerland. There's always the chance he's converting this site's profits into Toblerone bars stashed in Credit Suisse vaults all over Geneva.

 

[Splash4eva]

When international guests can already book and pay for vacations and components for that vacation from home, could pre purchase Genie+ when that was a feature Disney offered, and could book FP+ from home when it existed, I think it’s more than fair to expect something out of Disney beyond ‘you can book when you arrive’. Historically international guests have not been left out of offerings like this.

These aren’t a tiny minority of guests who just happen to be finding Disney. WDW has a booking arm for certain groups of international guests complete with separate incentives to encourage them to visit. They’re actively courting them. I think they’re owed a proper response, even if that’s a more firmly telling those guests this is not changing, allowing them to tweak plans as needed.

Well they have told them
They cant book them ahead of time. UK guests just dont want to accept that. It stinks i feel for them but not sure what anyone else feels Disney owes them…

 

[Splash4eva]

Why explain anything? They are alienating a group of loyal customers. Simple reason. I‘m not sure what you mean when you say a fan site explained what is going on. I’ve seen some good theories here but nothing definitive. If the reason is related to privacy law then just say that. If the reason is related to sales tax then again, just say that. How is that interfering with gov‘t policies? Even better, figure out a work around and offer it to your customers.

They are not alienating anyone. They just cant book the same way a US guest can book so lets be clear on that…

 

[C33Mom]

Let's use Switzerland as an example.

I think there are a few reasons why Switzerland doesn't request taxes from me or Steve:

1. We're too small for Switzerland to know we exist
2. Even if they did, the cumulative transaction volume is likely to be close to $0, so there's not much to tax
3. We don't have offices, employees, or other assets in Switzerland (the locus/nexus thing I mentioned)
4. Knowing that we don't have assets in Switzerland, they'd likely need to argue all of this in a US court. Good luck with that.

As you can imagine, having employees in a country changes a lot.

Take my state example. One of the questions they asked was whether our employee was involved in the research, development, production, or sale of any of our products. For us, the answer was no.

But Disney has offices in Zurich, Switzerland. So it's reasonable for the Swiss to ask if any of those employees were involved in the research, development, production, or sale of anything that the guest was buying.

Even if Disney thought the answer was obviously no, the Swiss could reasonably ask to see all of the research papers to which the locals contributed. And then they'd ask to see documentation about how that research was used to produce products, software, and IP for the company.

If any of that ended up in something that generated revenue, the Swiss could reasonably argue that the Swiss economy contributed to that income, so taxes were due.

As I said, even if the outcome is that Disney ends up owing nothing, the amount of risk mitigation it would take to ensure Disney owes nothing probably costs more than they'd make in revenue from the sale of LL.

ETA: I don't know for sure that @wdwmagic owns no assets in Switzerland. There's always the chance he's converting this site's profits into Toblerone bars stashed in Credit Suisse vaults all over Geneva.

Len, have you heard anything about whether LLMP (or ILL) need to used in the park where APs have reservations or if it can be any park? Also when (if?) you may be able to modify advance selections into Tier 1 rides on day of.

 

[GoofGoof]

They are not alienating anyone. They just cant book the same way a US guest can book so lets be clear on that…

The main point of the change and the new system is to allow people to book reservations in advance….up to 7 days. So it’s not just that you can’t book the same way, you potentially lose the biggest benefit of the system. So Yeah, it’s alienating guests who live outside the US/Canada and stay on property but want to be able to book from home 7 days in advance like everyone else can.

 

[Splash4eva]

The main point of the change and the new system is to allow people to book reservations in advance….up to 7 days. So it’s not just that you can’t book the same way, you potentially lose the biggest benefit of the system. So Yeah, it’s alienating guests who live outside the US/Canada and stay on property but want to be able to book from home 7 days in advance like everyone else can.

I guess we have differently definitions of alienating… i am hard in Disney for plenty this is not one of them. So we can all agree to disagree. Happy Friday!

 

[lentesta]

Len, have you heard anything about whether LLMP (or ILL) need to used in the park where APs have reservations or if it can be any park? Also when (if?) you may be able to modify advance selections into Tier 1 rides on day of.

I have not but I’ll ask.

 

[Mark Dunne]

To be fair, you're not really paying "full price." The UK deals are screaming good compared to what the ticket & hotel deals for Americans.

I wouldn’t say it was a screaming good deal, it’s more likely that we would spend on GP and ILL,s , prob works out roughly $8-9k once you convert P TO D, over the last few years it’s shot up, I’d agree with a few years ago for sure, so we pay say for 2 adults $1500 for say 10 nights park tickets only , but I hear that you guys can get for as little as $30 a day after say 5 day stay,and remember even from us there making a killing. And we spend a lot on merch as can only come over if we can afford it, it’s expensive for everyone to be honest, I think we can all Agree on that,

 

[nickys]

ETA: I don't know for sure that @wdwmagic owns no assets in Switzerland. There's always the chance he's converting this site's profits into Toblerone bars stashed in Credit Suisse vaults all over Geneva.

 

[Mark Dunne]

To be fair, you're not really paying "full price." The UK deals are screaming good compared to what the ticket & hotel deals for American

They are not alienating anyone. They just cant book the same way a US guest can book so lets be clear on that…

Let’s be clear on something else then, if WDW has no international guests, the parks would struggle , Disneyland no, but WDW definitely , its whole design is built around a world wide audience , Americans alone don’t spend enough to keep the whole show running, and Disney shareholders know this, that’s why they offer the likes of me a so called deal , but it’s still darn expensive. So yes this is alienating guests, and I’m sure Disney will change this for the millions from around the world that stay and visit at WDW, you’ve heard this yourself, when Disney leaders have almost openly said, it’s not the American family that spends the money, it’s outside , it’s the international guest that spends big, it’s like anything. Say you fly over , go to London, your more likely to spend more than I am, simply because I’d be say happy to eat at a snack sandwich eatery ,but you’ll want the whole London experience , I’m sure you’d be offered vouchers before you come over , and believe me, they should look after you , after all the UK economy doesn’t want to rely totally on me, they want you as a guest to really spend and spend big. It’s just got to be fair , that’s all people are saying

 

[Ayla]

I wouldn’t say it was a screaming good deal, it’s more likely that we would spend on GP and ILL,s , prob works out roughly $8-9k once you convert P TO D, over the last few years it’s shot up, I’d agree with a few years ago for sure, so we pay say for 2 adults $1500 for say 10 nights park tickets only , but I hear that you guys can get for as little as $30 a day after say 5 day stay,and remember even from us there making a killing. And we spend a lot on merch as can only come over if we can afford it, it’s expensive for everyone to be honest, I think we can all Agree on that,

You heard wrong. This idea that UK guests are the ones keeping WDW afloat is absurd.

For context, a current 6 day adult ticket starting on a Saturday in late July is $684, one park per day, and no add-ons.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Let’s be clear on something else then, if WDW has no international guests, them parks are closing ! Period

Lol, no. Don’t get me wrong, I hope they fix this, I really do. But Disney is likely calculating that this isn’t actually going to turn off a ton of international tourism. I think they may be right. Most international tourists are not like you. They’re first time visitors. They may not even know that multipass exists. In any event the idea that the parks would all close without international guests is laughable and belied by 50 years of history including eras with much lower international travel than today.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

but I hear that you guys can get for as little as $30 a day after say 5 day stay,

You heard wrong.

prob works out roughly $8-9k

For a two week on-site trip? That’s a screaming deal compared to what Americans would be paying for a 2 week onsite trip. An American can’t even purchase a ticket longer than 10 days. That price-range is less than one week for an American on-site trip at a deluxe (with discounts!)

 

[Splash4eva]

Let’s be clear on something else then, if WDW has no international guests, them parks are closing ! Period, Disneyland no, but WDW definitely , its whole design is built around a world wide audience , Americans alone don’t spend enough to keep the whole show running, and Disney shareholders know this, that’s why they offer the likes of me a so called deal , but it’s still darn expensive. So yes this is alienating guests, and I’m sure Disney will change this for the millions from around the world that stay and visit at WDW, you’ve heard this yourself, when Disney leaders have almost openly said, it’s not the American family that spends the money, it’s outside , it’s the international guest that spends big, it’s like anything. Say you fly over , go to London, your more likely to spend more than I am, simply because I’d be say happy to eat at a snack sandwich eatery ,but you’ll want the whole London experience , I’m sure you’d be offered vouchers before you come over , and believe me, they should look after you , after all the UK economy doesn’t want to rely totally on me, they want you as a guest to really spend and spend big. It’s just got to be fair , that’s all people are saying

Word on Wall St is they are going go be filing bankruptcy over this …. I truly hope you do not believe what you said about parks closing.

 

[LittleBuford]

I just have to ask. What's the draw to Disney when you have such amazing theme parks in Europe already. Like Europa Park, Efteling, Park Asterix and Park Aventura.

Because, despite all the negativity here, Walt Disney World is special.

 

[Deadly Danson]

A few of our listeners work in the field of international tax law and compliance. They suggest two compliance reasons for Disney not implementing this in MDE:

• Data privacy laws vary and change frequently
• Sales tax/GST/VAT collection and compliance

This article suggests that (as an example) Germany and France have different levels of VAT rates.

The tax issues may have multiple layers of complexity. Imagine this scenario for Walt Disney World:

• The guest's permanent domicile is in France (where Disneyland Paris is located, so where Disney has locus)
• The guest purchases Lightning Lane at the airport in Berlin, on the way to the US
• Some of the servers used in the transaction reside in Amazon data centers in Spain

Where did this transaction take place, and whose tax rules apply?

Beyond that, I think each country in the EU that participates in the "distance selling" program has different revenue and paperwork thresholds that dictate how much tax is collected. Beyond that threshold, Disney would have to register as a non-resident VAT trader.

Even if they wanted to do all of that, and they had mapped out exactly where the transactions happened and who they needed to pay, they'd have to get every local government to agree to that analysis.

I have some experience selling an app in all 50 states, and I have employees in multiple states. I once spent two years arguing with a state about whether a single, part-time, work-at-home customer service employee constituted an "office" that made us liable for city, municipal, and state sales taxes. And the way they started that discussion was by sending me a bill for $80K as an "estimate" for what they thought I owed. (They ended up agreeing with me that we were exempt from all taxes and didn't owe anytihng. I had to send the state a copy of its own tax code, but still: two years of lawyers and accountants to get that resolved.) Now multiply that by countries, and imagine that's what Disney has to deal with.

Thanks for taking the time to lay all that out. It's interesting and appreciated. Obviously I'm still not amused that Disney roled this out knowing that they were putting international resort guests at the back of the queue and that the first thing I will have to do after a 9 hour flight once checked in and on WiFi in my resort is to book and plan what's left of the Lightning Lanes for my trip but it's good to know some of the issues.

 

[Splash4eva]

Im just curious what do international guests think Disney should have done? Just not roll the system out?

 

[bwr827]

Im just curious what do international guests think Disney should have done? Just not roll the system out?

Imagine a choice between two options:

1. A ride access system Splash4eva can get the full benefit from

2. A ride access system Splash4eva cannot get the full benefit from

I’m curious what you would prefer?