Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[nickys]

So then what are these better consumer protections versus booking on the American site?

We get automatic compensation for flight delays, for example. If we book a package we have the right to a full refund if the carrier or TA goes bust, that kind of thing. They also can’t change the cost or t&cs after we pay.

So if I book a package and a flight delay means I miss the first 3 days of my holiday, then not only do I get compensation but I get a full refund for those days, including car hire or anything else booked alongside the package. And reasonable costs if I was stranded in NYC.

 

[Splash4eva]

I think it's one more nail in the coffin. One more straw on the camel's back. And other analogies. I don't think anyone is saying that no-one from the UK will ever come again because of this particualr thing - it's you that's saying that!

Also, just like not all American visitors can not be put into a box and labelled as "they do this...", you can't do that with UK visitors either. A lot have a long stay because it's a long way to come and very very expensive, and Disney targets 14-day (and used to be 21-day) visits with ever decreasing per-day ticket prices for that long (but we still end up paying more, and hotel prices have the same prices and the same DDP offers etc). However, not everyone does 14 or 21 day visits (my next one will be 9 days) and no, UK visitors don't necessarily spend less on line skip passes because they come for a long time. In some ways, they are irregular visits, a 21-day visit is likely to be practically a once-in-a-lifetime thing for a family) so might want to make the most of it while they can.

And the point about this particular service (LLMP) is that there are now a select group of guests (all Americans and Candians) who will be booking up the popular slots and attractions 7 days ahead of UK visitors, and of course Disney is rolling this out because they believe it will increase sales - people will buy in advance for fear of missing out instead of waiting to see. So even if people did skip buying Genie+ in the past becuase they felt it wasn't necessary, it's probably more important now due to increased numbers of people pre-booking. You can't compare what people use to do with Genie+ with what they might do with LLMP, because it's a competely different service.

FWIW, I used FP+ in advance every time in the past. I've only been once when Genie+ was in effect and I bought it roughly half of my days, simply because I found it it wasn't necessary. It was useful not having to commit to buying it advance, you could just wait and see. The lines weren't too long, probably due to not that many people buying Genie+, or I went in a relatively quiet time. Whatever the reason. Now it's going back to the way FP+ was done and people will panic-buy in advance in the same way as FP+.

Basically, you can't define what "all UK visitors" do! Your post was all about sweeping generalisations. There are lots and lots of nuances here.

Maybe im missing something in my post but please show me where i used the word ALL? TYIA

 

[osian]

Maybe im missing something in my post but please show me where i used the word ALL? TYIA

We have another pedant. OK, I give in, I amend what I said to "Basically, you can't define what "UK visitors" do". That sort of implies All. But what you said was "it seems like UK visitors bc they come to Disney for some long stays they bypass paying for this service anyway?", which also implies "all". You did not use the word "some", or "few". Did you mean some or few? In which case perhaps you shpould have said that to make it clear you didn't mean "all". The "some" in front of "stays" grammatically refers to stays, not visitors. "It seems like UK visitors, <sub-clause>, they bypass paying for this service anyway". Sorry for being pedantic.

 

[Splash4eva]

We have another pedant. OK, I give in, I amend what I said to "Basically, you can't define what "UK visitors" do". That sort of implies All. But what you said was "it seems like UK visitors bc they come to Disney for some long stays they bypass paying for this service anyway?", which also implies "all". You did not use the word "some", or "few".

No it does NOT imply all at all… you took it that way & thats on you not me. If i wanted to say all i would have said all… but from being in forums and threads for a long time it does seem like a good amount of people who travel for longer stays will not pay for the line skipping up charges due ro various factors. Either way i never said all nor implied all…. Moving along now

 

[osian]

No it does NOT imply all at all… you took it that way & thats on you not me. If i wanted to say all i would have said all… but from being in forums and threads for a long time it does seem like a good amount of people who travel for longer stays will not pay for the line skipping up charges due ro various factors. Either way i never said all nor implied all…. Moving along now

You implied all because of the way you constructed your sentence, which you have retro-corrected above to insert "it does seem like a good amount". But thank you for your input, I hope you can let it go now.

 

[lentesta]

Got the standard "we appreciate your concern but 'b***** off'" reply back from my email so I've written a letter to them. Will report back if they provide anything of interest. @lentesta did say he had had a lot of correspondence from international guests on this so hopefully the pressure will help. It's absolutely no use saying they will sort this in time when we have hugely expensive resort stays booked in the near future - if the system wasn't ready to launch for everyone then they shouldn't have launched it at all. It's a huge downer for my holiday.

A few of our listeners work in the field of international tax law and compliance. They suggest two compliance reasons for Disney not implementing this in MDE:

• Data privacy laws vary and change frequently
• Sales tax/GST/VAT collection and compliance

This article suggests that (as an example) Germany and France have different levels of VAT rates.

The tax issues may have multiple layers of complexity. Imagine this scenario for Walt Disney World:

• The guest's permanent domicile is in France (where Disneyland Paris is located, so where Disney has locus)
• The guest purchases Lightning Lane at the airport in Berlin, on the way to the US
• Some of the servers used in the transaction reside in Amazon data centers in Spain

Where did this transaction take place, and whose tax rules apply?

Beyond that, I think each country in the EU that participates in the "distance selling" program has different revenue and paperwork thresholds that dictate how much tax is collected. Beyond that threshold, Disney would have to register as a non-resident VAT trader.

Even if they wanted to do all of that, and they had mapped out exactly where the transactions happened and who they needed to pay, they'd have to get every local government to agree to that analysis.

I have some experience selling an app in all 50 states, and I have employees in multiple states. I once spent two years arguing with a state about whether a single, part-time, work-at-home customer service employee constituted an "office" that made us liable for city, municipal, and state sales taxes. And the way they started that discussion was by sending me a bill for $80K as an "estimate" for what they thought I owed. (They ended up agreeing with me that we were exempt from all taxes and didn't owe anytihng. I had to send the state a copy of its own tax code, but still: two years of lawyers and accountants to get that resolved.) Now multiply that by countries, and imagine that's what Disney has to deal with.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

A few of our listeners work in the field of international tax law and compliance. They suggest two compliance reasons for Disney not implementing this in MDE:

• Data privacy laws vary and change frequently
• Sales tax/GST/VAT collection and compliance

This article suggests that (as an example) Germany and France have different levels of VAT rates.

The tax issues may have multiple layers of complexity. Imagine this scenario for Walt Disney World:

• The guest's permanent domicile is in France (where Disneyland Paris is located, so where Disney has locus)
• The guest purchases Lightning Lane at the airport in Berlin, on the way to the US
• Some of the servers used in the transaction reside in Amazon data centers in Spain

Where did this transaction take place, and whose tax rules apply?

Beyond that, I think each country in the EU that participates in the "distance selling" program has different revenue and paperwork thresholds that dictate how much tax is collected. Beyond that threshold, Disney would have to register as a non-resident VAT trader.

Even if they wanted to do all of that, and they had mapped out exactly where the transactions happened and who they needed to pay, they'd have to get every local government to agree to that analysis.

I have some experience selling an app in all 50 states, and I have employees in multiple states. I once spent two years arguing with a state about whether a single, part-time, work-at-home customer service employee constituted an "office" that made us liable for city, municipal, and state sales taxes. And the way they started that discussion was by sending me a bill for $80K as an "estimate" for what they thought I owed. (They ended up agreeing with me that we were exempt from all taxes and didn't owe anytihng. I had to send the state a copy of its own tax code, but still: two years of lawyers and accountants to get that resolved.) Now multiply that by countries, and imagine that's what Disney has to deal with.

These are all really good points. I suspect that Disney could get around most (but possibly not all) of this by including LL multipass in upcharge packages sold abroad through international travel agencies, akin to what they did with G+ included in international bookings (for an extra fee at booking) when they first rolled that out. The only way for an international customer to purchase LL multipass in advance would be as part of a package when they purchase their hotel & park tickets. I suspect they're going to land there eventually if this decision really does hurt them with international sales (which remains to be seen).

In-app purchasing of LL multipass on international soil does seem like it's going to be near-impossible given the regulatory challenges.

 

[GoofGoof]

Because Multipass is a digital product, which is the category of transaction that the regulations apply to. You can prepay food. You can book a hotel room. You can buy park tickets. Because none of those are digital products.

So sell them a reusable shopping bag for $25 and throw in MLL for free with any purchase. Problem solved.

 

[Splash4eva]

You implied all because of the way you constructed your sentence, which you have retro-corrected above to insert "it does seem like a good amount". But thank you for your input, I hope you can let it go now.

You need to just admit your assumption was wrong lol… i did not imply all ever and you did it again. I said a good amount which again does not even come close to implying all…. Do you wanna Try again?

 

[nickys]

What incentive is there tho to stay onsite an entire trip at an over priced hotel with not many amenities if you dont plan in going to disney parks the entire stay?

Because they want to?

If Disney is their prime focus then it’s easy and “safe” to book a package. Whether through Disney or Virgin or any TA. They’ll likely still do other things for some days too.

These changes might make them think about staying at Universal instead, or another resort. There are plenty of options.

I love staying onsite, that’s why we bought DVC. But we still go and do other things. And can always go to the parks in the evening when we get back if we want to. If we cut our stay onsite I can rent out the rest of our points to pay for staying elsewhere.

 

[ConfettiCupcake]

These are all really good points. I suspect that Disney could get around most (but possibly not all) of this by including LL multipass in upcharge packages sold abroad through international travel agencies, akin to what they did with G+ included in international bookings (for an extra fee at booking) when they first rolled that out. The only way for an international customer to purchase LL multipass in advance would be as part of a package when they purchase their hotel & park tickets. I suspect they're going to land there eventually if this decision really does hurt them with international sales (which remains to be seen).

In-app purchasing of LL multipass on international soil does seem like it's going to be near-impossible given the regulatory challenges.

Yes. Because they could sell international guests Genie+ in advance and because they could book FP+, I’m firmly in the camp that this not immediately having a work around for international guests is a choice by Disney.

I too suspect we see something similar to the pre purchase of the multi pass with it untied to the specific ride times. I hope they figure it out fast.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I hope they figure it out fast.

I'm not sure they will. I think they want to see if they actually have to. If they don't see a drop in international sales, they may never "figure it out," unfortunately.

 

[Ayla]

It's not an IT issue, it's regulatory. It's the transaction that's the problem, not the software.

I do not understand why people do not get this. It isn't some grand conspiracy to screw UK guests out of pre-booking.

 

[nickys]

A few of our listeners work in the field of international tax law and compliance. They suggest two compliance reasons for Disney not implementing this in MDE:

• Data privacy laws vary and change frequently
• Sales tax/GST/VAT collection and compliance

This article suggests that (as an example) Germany and France have different levels of VAT rates.

The tax issues may have multiple layers of complexity. Imagine this scenario for Walt Disney World:

• The guest's permanent domicile is in France (where Disneyland Paris is located, so where Disney has locus)
• The guest purchases Lightning Lane at the airport in Berlin, on the way to the US
• Some of the servers used in the transaction reside in Amazon data centers in Spain

Where did this transaction take place, and whose tax rules apply?

Beyond that, I think each country in the EU that participates in the "distance selling" program has different revenue and paperwork thresholds that dictate how much tax is collected. Beyond that threshold, Disney would have to register as a non-resident VAT trader.

Even if they wanted to do all of that, and they had mapped out exactly where the transactions happened and who they needed to pay, they'd have to get every local government to agree to that analysis.

I have some experience selling an app in all 50 states, and I have employees in multiple states. I once spent two years arguing with a state about whether a single, part-time, work-at-home customer service employee constituted an "office" that made us liable for city, municipal, and state sales taxes. And the way they started that discussion was by sending me a bill for $80K as an "estimate" for what they thought I owed. (They ended up agreeing with me that we were exempt from all taxes and didn't owe anytihng. I had to send the state a copy of its own tax code, but still: two years of lawyers and accountants to get that resolved.) Now multiply that by countries, and imagine that's what Disney has to deal with.

Len,

You make some good points but are these issues solely related to purchasing / selling via the app?


This is what I can’t understand about this situation.

If it is an issue with the app then why not just redirect international guests to the website to make the purchase?

 

[nickys]

I do not understand why people do not get this. It isn't some grand conspiracy to screw UK guests out of pre-booking.

It isn’t just UK guests, it’s anyone outside of the US or Canada.

And why won’t Disney make a statement instead of trying to pretend it’s not an issue. Because it’s angered a lot of people and it feels like they don’t care.

 

[ConfettiCupcake]

I do not understand why people do not get this. It isn't some grand conspiracy to screw UK guests out of pre-booking.

People get it. Most if not all participating here realize it’s not some grand conspiracy, but does that make people outside of the US and Canada feel any less screwed over or ripped off? I really don’t think so. I’m Canadian without a trip planned and was pretty confident I’d be able to use the system when the time came, but I sympathize with those who feel like they’ve had the rug ripped out a bit especially those with summer trips.

I don’t think any angle is particularly flattering to Disney. They either knowingly chose a system that shuts out their international guests permanently, knowingly launched a system that wasn’t ready for international guests, or perhaps the most concerning of all (but I think the least likely) launched a system without considering regulatory or IT hurdles.

Losing the pre booking component is losing a huge aspect of this system. It’s not good enough to say you can book once on US soil.

 

[Splash4eva]

I think it's one more nail in the coffin. One more straw on the camel's back. And other analogies. I don't think anyone is saying that no-one from the UK will ever come again because of this particualr thing - it's you that's saying that!

Also, just like not all American visitors can not be put into a box and labelled as "they do this...", you can't do that with UK visitors either. A lot have a long stay because it's a long way to come and very very expensive, and Disney targets 14-day (and used to be 21-day) visits with ever decreasing per-day ticket prices for that long (but we still end up paying more, and hotel prices have the same prices and the same DDP offers etc). However, not everyone does 14 or 21 day visits (my next one will be 9 days - 8 days at WDW) and no, UK visitors don't necessarily spend less on line skip passes because they come for a long time. In some ways, they are irregular visits, a 21-day visit is likely to be practically a once-in-a-lifetime thing for a family) so might want to make the most of it while they can.

And the point about this particular service (LLMP) is that there are now a select group of guests (all Americans and Candians) who will be booking up the popular slots and attractions 7 days ahead of UK visitors, and of course Disney is rolling this out because they believe it will increase sales - people will buy in advance for fear of missing out instead of waiting to see. So even if people did skip buying Genie+ in the past becuase they felt it wasn't necessary, it's probably more important now due to increased numbers of people pre-booking. You can't compare what people use to do with Genie+ with what they might do with LLMP, because it's a competely different service.

FWIW, I used FP+ in advance every time in the past. I've only been once when Genie+ was in effect and I bought it roughly half of my days, simply because I found it it wasn't necessary. It was useful not having to commit to buying it advance, you could just wait and see. The lines weren't too long, probably due to not that many people buying Genie+, or I went in a relatively quiet time. Whatever the reason. Now it's going back to the way FP+ was done and people will panic-buy in advance in the same way as FP+.

Basically, you can't define what "UK visitors" do! Your post was all about sweeping generalisations. There are lots and lots of nuances here.

You literally proved my point by saying you didnt buy it daily because it wasnt needed…

 

[nickys]

You literally proved my point by saying you didnt buy it daily because it wasnt needed…

Proved what point? What one person chooses to do does not mean everyone chooses to do the same.
I won’t visit WDW again unless I can buy the Multipass and book in advance.

 

[GoofGoof]

I do not understand why people do not get this. It isn't some grand conspiracy to screw UK guests out of pre-booking.

It doesn’t have to be a grand conspiracy theory to make people mad. The fact of the matter is anyone outside of the US or Canada cannot buy this product offered by Disney. Loyal customers cannot give their money to Disney for a product they want. Of course they are mad and of course they want to know why. I don’t understand why people don’t get that. It doesn’t impact me but if it did I’d be just as annoyed by it. Disney could solve a part of the problem by simply explaining the why and even more if they then say they are working on a fix.

 

[lentesta]

Otherwise how does any business sell to overseas customers? How do you handle me buying a subscription to TP? How does Steve handle people from different countries paying for a Premium Membership to this site? I have no idea if I can do either from the apps, but I can via the websites.

This is what I can’t understand about this situation.

If it is an issue with the app then why not just redirect international guests to the website to make the purchase?

Let's use Switzerland as an example.

I think there are a few reasons why Switzerland doesn't request taxes from me or Steve:

1. We're too small for Switzerland to know we exist
2. Even if they did, the cumulative transaction volume is likely to be close to $0, so there's not much to tax
3. We don't have offices, employees, or other assets in Switzerland (the locus/nexus thing I mentioned)
4. Knowing that we don't have assets in Switzerland, they'd likely need to argue all of this in a US court. Good luck with that.

As you can imagine, having employees in a country changes a lot.

Take my state example. One of the questions they asked was whether our employee was involved in the research, development, production, or sale of any of our products. For us, the answer was no.

But Disney has offices in Zurich, Switzerland. So it's reasonable for the Swiss to ask if any of those employees were involved in the research, development, production, or sale of anything that the guest was buying.

Even if Disney thought the answer was obviously no, the Swiss could reasonably ask to see all of the research papers to which the locals contributed. And then they'd ask to see documentation about how that research was used to produce products, software, and IP for the company.

If any of that ended up in something that generated revenue, the Swiss could reasonably argue that the Swiss economy contributed to that income, so taxes were due.

As I said, even if the outcome is that Disney ends up owing nothing, the amount of risk mitigation it would take to ensure Disney owes nothing probably costs more than they'd make in revenue from the sale of LL.

ETA: I don't know for sure that @wdwmagic owns no assets in Switzerland. There's always the chance he's converting this site's profits into Toblerone bars stashed in Credit Suisse vaults all over Geneva.