Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[Touchdown]

I think there would be an issue with forcing disabled guests to wait in a specific area from an optics perspective. There would be critics who would say Disney is treating disabled guests like "cattle" and "herding them" into "pens." Of course, this is charged language meant to stoke outrage, but it's the kind of PR disaster they would assuredly do everything they can to avoid.

Less when you consider that they treat all guests like that (ie the queue.)

 

[doctornick]

I would bet all of my worldly possessions AND everything that @wdwmagic owns, that Disney has identified excessive DAS usage as an impediment to increasing Genie+ capacity and revenue.

If there's one place in the world you don't want to be, it's between Disney and a stack of money.

Sure, sure. But my question is more about dynamically... like if a larger than expected number of people use DAS for a particular attraction in a given day, does the G+ system then cut down on the number of slots released for later in that day (fewer than even what they normally would release) for G+ to be able to book?

 

[mikejs78]

Example having a DAS return time of 11 am for Peter Pan and a Haunted Mansion return time for 11 am. Basically being in 2 virtual queues at the same time.

But if I just had Genie+ I could do that. Let's say I had gotten a HM return time for 11:00 a.m. and I got my DAS pass at 10 AM for a return at 11. Now, we all know Peter Pan lasts about 90 seconds, so if I had standby and Genie+ I could easily get in line at 10, wait for an hour, then go make my HM Genie+.

Where do you cut it off? Let's say I have an 11 AM LL for HM and I get in a 55 DAS virtual line at 11. Should I be denied because of my HM pass? Or have the HM pass cancelled? Especially since someone who didn't have DAS could do that and easily make it to HM within the grace period?

Couple that with the fact that DAS return times don't currently expire - with the caveat that, unlike Genie+, you can't hold more than one at once.

 

[nickys]

But yet they can be confined in a much smaller space like a vehicle and go on a ride, or watch a show? Fine have an outdoor garden too, the ADA requires reasonable accommodations, not unlimited ones.

Movement and sensory stimulation can be calming for some people with autism. Others can sit and watch TV or a tablet or a show for a long time to the exclusion of everything else. Their carers will know what will help and what will distress them.

But if overwhelmed they all have the potential to seriously disturb as nd even frighten other people around them - like those who may have PTSD. I’m using these two conditions deliberately here.

But needing to run and make a noise might be a necessary pre-requisite to be able to sit quietly for 20 minutes. I work with children with autism. Having movement breaks every half hour is needed for some. They may need Impromptu ones too. Others will sit endlessly, focussing intently and get distressed at being interrupted.

Some quiet places to wait would be good though for those who need it.

 

[DisneyDodo]

I mean, Disney said in court - and was unchallenged in saying it - that GAC (the pre-DAS program) guests comprised 3% of park guest and accounted for 30% of ride capacity on popular attractions. Nobody has to believe anything I say.

I think this alone says it all. If we assume that disabled guests have generally the same preferences as other guests (which I think is a fair assumption), we should expect them to account for the same percentage of ride capacity under a fair system. For 3% of guests’ parties to fairly consume 30% of capacity, they would need to include 10 guests on average (9 + the disabled guest). Even if we assume the soft-limit was never enforced, there’s no parties were anywhere near that large. Clearly, guests on the GAC system had a leg up on other guests when it came to accessing attractions. That doesn’t necessarily imply abuse on the part of guests, but it does mean there was a flaw in the system.

 

[lentesta]

Sure, sure. But my question is more about dynamically... like if a larger than expected number of people use DAS for a particular attraction in a given day, does the G+ system then cut down on the number of slots released for later in that day (fewer than even what they normally would release) for G+ to be able to book?

Oh. I would be surprised if they had that level of programming functionality.

 

[Splash4eva]

You can have both Genie+ and DAS. What I'm saying is the system shouldn't allow for DAS return time and Genie+ return time active for the same hour.

Example having a DAS return time of 11 am for Peter Pan and a Haunted Mansion return time for 11 am. Basically being in 2 virtual queues at the same time.

As far as adding capacity to fix the problem. IMO it would help but not as much as everyone thinks. No matter the amount of capacity the park has there will never be enough for everyone to have Genie+ and have availability for everything.

The problem is Disney creating the mindset of waiting in line is not an option when visiting a theme park. Til that's changed it doesn't matter what they do. IMO unless you have issues physically waiting in long lines than standby should be the option for majority of guests

I know what you mean regarding holding both what im saying is Disney is now testing waters that imo will fail because ill be honest why would a DAS user pay for Genie at this point? Yes this is the “advantage” im sure people complain about but its something youare payng for and Disney is not gonna risk losing

 

[Drdcm]

Again people are NOT complaining about valid DAS users. They are complaining about people abusing the system w/o knowing anything regarding what that number may or may not be…

I guess you’re right. We don’t know how many of the 3% actually need it. I think the real question is why are DAS users taking up 10x more ride capacity than would be expected though. The numbers show it being a legitimate perk not an accommodation.

 

[Brian]

Example having a DAS return time of 11 am for Peter Pan and a Haunted Mansion return time for 11 am. Basically being in 2 virtual queues at the same time.

Non-disabled guests can do that exact thing by waiting in standby for Peter Pan while waiting for their G+ return time for Haunted Mansion. Since DAS is five minutes less than the standby line, it is effectively the equivalent of waiting in the standby line time-wise. Since both disabled and non-disabled guests (both with G+) can accomplish two lines simultaneously with DAS and waiting in standby respectively, I see no issue with the ability to use G+ and DAS simultaneously.

Also, worth noting that the G+ return in this example would be 11am-noon while the DAS return would be return any time after 11am.

 

[Splash4eva]

I guess you’re right. We don’t know how many of the 3% actually need it. I think the real question is why are DAS users taking up 10x more ride capacity than would be expected though. The numbers show it being a legitimate perk not an accommodation.

I will admit it. I will reride attractions multiple times a day but again there is still that “waiting” period elsewhere. The “trick” tho is and this is where i agree the “advantage” lies. I will have my Genie ride booked in the am also have a pre booked ride as well. So i enter park and book a top attraction. When dinner comes do the same. Can say the same when im riding something longer. So in theory i can get on same ride 3 times while eating lunch/dinner and going on rides in the morming when i enter the park. Is that fair? Probably not but again. What is one to do when you are allowed and this is why i say the abuse to me is exaggerated. Disney can easily only allow 1 ride per attraction but then it gets into a legal tussle where they are not providing the same as other guests w/o disabilities. Its orobably why last year i noticed the change where every ride was available late in the night as parks were within 30 minutes of closing as opposed to years past where is a ride had a longer wait time than was left in the park hours is was NOT available to book. As a DAS user i would have NO issues only being allowed to ride something once maybe twice max. But yes im guilty riding things multiple times a day from park open to park closes. Im sure im not the only one and to me that is the major problem

 

[mikejs78]

Movement and sensory stimulation can be calming for some people with autism. Others can sit and watch TV or a tablet or a show for a long time to the exclusion of everything else. Their carers will know what will help and what will distress them.

But if overwhelmed they all have the potential to seriously disturb as nd even frighten other people around them - like those who may have PTSD. I’m using these two conditions deliberately here.

But needing to run and make a noise might be a necessary pre-requisite to be able to sit quietly for 20 minutes. I work with children with autism. Having movement breaks every half hour is needed for some. They may need Impromptu ones too. Others will sit endlessly, focussing intently and get distressed at being interrupted.

Some quiet places to wait would be good though for those who need it.

This is so true. My youngest child has a diagnosed disability where where standing in line in a crowd for a long length of time becomes too much. He can handle maybe 15 to 20 minutes, but as the time creeps up he starts getting extremely anxious, upset and panics. Has to do with being an enclosed space with a lot of people for a long period of time standing. Still. He needs movement.

Rides are different for him- I think he perceives them his movement, because they're not staying in the same place. We can't do shows in general because shows are the same thing- sitting in enclosed dark spaces for too long without movement. Honestly he doesn't even watch that much television because to him shows are "too long". A couple weeks ago we decided to try an IMAX movie at our local museum of Science to see how he would take to it. Being a little older. I had to leave with him 15 minutes into the show.

Our DAS you should just very limited. We purchase G+ and get DAS, but generally only use it for things that would directly benefit him. For example, there are attractions he will not go on because he gets overstimulated from a sensory perspective and finds it upsetting. So let's say we want to go on MF: SR, which is one such ride. What we will typically do is if we have a LL for that, we will get rider swap, so that our older son and my wife and I can have an opportunity to ride it. While one of us is on the ride, we will do something that is particular to our younger son- for example, his favorite attraction in the world is TSMM. We might get a pass for that just so he can enjoy himself. Or, we might get a pass to meet Mickey. We never use the pre-books, and we never really use DAS for headliners- just things that benefit him.

At the same time, our pace for the day is slower. As @nickys said, some kids need regular movement breaks. That's my kid. We are frequently taking breaks throughout the day and not going on attractions so my son can move. There are times where we have to get out of a line because my son needs to move. So we probably end up doing the same or less number of attractions per day as the average guest.

If a system were put in place where you couldn't overlap Genie plus and DAS, it would completely destroy how we are able to make trips workable for our family. I think it's hard to make generalizations about people's specific disabilities. DAS works fairly well for the people who need it. I think the only logical things they can do is remove the pre-books and increase the scrutiny of those requesting a pass, without negatively affecting those who do need it.

 

[Brian]

Less when you consider that they treat all guests like that (ie the queue.)

You're absolutely right, but the headlines would be very unpleasant for them, and compounded by the fact that they are disabled guests.

 

[Ayla]

Movement and sensory stimulation can be calming for some people with autism. Others can sit and watch TV or a tablet or a show for a long time to the exclusion of everything else. Their carers will know what will help and what will distress them.

But if overwhelmed they all have the potential to seriously disturb as nd even frighten other people around them - like those who may have PTSD. I’m using these two conditions deliberately here.

But needing to run and make a noise might be a necessary pre-requisite to be able to sit quietly for 20 minutes. I work with children with autism. Having movement breaks every half hour is needed for some. They may need Impromptu ones too. Others will sit endlessly, focussing intently and get distressed at being interrupted.

Some quiet places to wait would be good though for those who need it.

This is such a cop out. The vast majority of visitors to the parks who use DAS either had to drive a long way or fly in a plane for multiple hours.

 

[Drdcm]

I will admit it. I will reride attractions multiple times a day but again there is still that “waiting” period elsewhere. The “trick” tho is and this is where i agree the “advantage” lies. I will have my Genie ride booked in the am also have a pre booked ride as well. So i enter park and book a top attraction. When dinner comes do the same. Can say the same when im riding something longer. So in theory i can get on same ride 3 times while eating lunch/dinner and going on rides in the morming when i enter the park. Is that fair? Probably not but again. What is one to do when you are allowed and this is why i say the abuse to me is exaggerated. Disney can easily only allow 1 ride per attraction but then it gets into a legal tussle where they are not providing the same as other guests w/o disabilities. Its orobably why last year i noticed the change where every ride was available late in the night as parks were within 30 minutes of closing as opposed to years past where is a ride had a longer wait time than was left in the park hours is was NOT available to book. As a DAS user i would have NO issues only being allowed to ride something once maybe twice max. But yes im guilty riding things multiple times a day from park open to park closes. Im sure im not the only one and to me that is the major problem

I’m not arguing or accusing you of abusing. I would use it to my advantage and i would optimize the crap out of it.

I think it comes down to whatever people think is “fair”, which is subjective. My personal opinion is to let DAS users have the advantage. I’m not the one living with a disability, and I’m glad I don’t have to deal with the associated impairment - anything that can make things easier for them is fine by me.

 

[lentesta]

I think this alone says it all. If we assume that disabled guests have generally the same preferences as other guests (which I think is a fair assumption), we should expect them to account for the same percentage of ride capacity under a fair system.

Good point. That has to be the default assumption. (Two large-enough groups drawn from the same population should have the same ride preferences.)

So one way that Disney might be able to check DAS use is to see whether DAS users are visiting the same attractions at the same rate as non-DAS guests.

For example, suppose:

• The average wait for super-brand-new attraction A is 60 minutes during the day
• The average wait for much-older-attraction B is also 60 minutes during the day
• Non-DAS guests visit A two times as often as B (a 2:1 ratio)

Then we'd expect DAS use at X to be around 2:1 compared to Y. (Because using DAS at both should save the exact same amount of time, and the DAS and non-DAS groups are large enough that ride preferences should be the same on average).

I'm ignoring some potential differences such as A being a super-fast inverted roller coaster, etc., that would cause the DAS group to self-select out. Bear with me.

If we see DAS use at ride A significantly higher than 2:1 versus B, it would raise questions. Especially if ride A had health warnings that applied to a higher percentage of DAS guests than non-DAS guests.

I would bet money that Disney has done this analysis.

 

[Drdcm]

@Brian sorry I wasn’t responding to you. I misunderstood your point on the situation and wasn’t intending on posting, but the app glitched on me.

 

[Brian]

I think it comes down to whatever people think is “fair”, which is subjective. My personal opinion is to let DAS users have the advantage. I’m not the one living with a disability, and I’m glad I don’t have to deal with the associated impairment - anything that can make things easier for them is fine by me.

There is absolutely an advantage in that they can "wait" for DAS attractions without waiting in the standby queue. This is by necessity, but it frees them up to watch a streetmosphere show or even a major entertainment offering, shop, eat, and generally take in more of the park, while the non-disabled guest is still physically in line.

The only alternative to that is the "holding area" idea which wouldn't work for a variety of reasons.

While there is the advantage, I don't consider it unfair because 1.) it is required by law to accommodate guests with disabilities, and Disney is known for going above and beyond to be inclusive of these guests, and 2.) guests with disabilities and their families/travel party face challenges which the average, non-disabled guest does not face, and in many cases, can "slow them down," which can impact the amount they can experience (in both quality and quantity) during their visit.

 

[bmr1591]

Without added capacity wait times are going nowhere. I will stand on that hill. Unless of course less and less people keep going.

Moving lines matter. Even if it's a 40 minute wait, if you're constantly moving, it feels better than standing in the same spot for 20 minutes. Psychology of the guest matters when running parks.


I'm not sure who said it, but I'll also respond to the idea of DAS users in a standby queue for another ride while in their DAS queue for a different ride. That's ridiculous and shouldn't be allowed. You're using DAS because you *can't* wait in the standby line. You're proving your lack of need by waiting in another line. That should immediately disqualify someone from DAS pass.

 

[Drdcm]

There is absolutely an advantage in that they can "wait" for DAS attractions without waiting in the standby queue. This is by necessity, but it frees them up to watch a streetmosphere show, shop, eat, and generally take in more of the park, while the non-disabled guest is physically in line.

The only alternative to that is the "holding area" which wouldn't work for a variety of reasons.

The advantage I was talking about is about DAS users getting to be on way more rides than non DAS users as evidenced by 10x greater ride capacity consumption when compared to a non-das user.

 

[Ripken10]

Moving lines matter. Even if it's a 40 minute wait, if you're constantly moving, it feels better than standing in the same spot for 20 minutes. Psychology of the guest matters when running parks.


I'm not sure who said it, but I'll also respond to the idea of DAS users in a standby queue for another ride while in their DAS queue for a different ride. That's ridiculous and shouldn't be allowed. You're using DAS because you *can't* wait in the standby line. You're proving your lack of need by waiting in another line. That should immediately disqualify someone from DAS pass.

this logic may seem to flow right to some, but it is not actually true. The repetitive getting in lines over and over is what can't be done by many. So spacing out the time an individual is in line will help them handle whatever that individual may be dealing with.

Now I agree that there is way too much abuse, the idea that if someone can stand in one stand by line it must disqualify them is just not realistic. While I am sure there is some individual that require DAS that can't stand in any stand by lines, for most (that really need it) it would be the continued repetitive act of being in lines that would not be good for them.