Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[GhostHost1000]

For what it's worth, I think yesterday's announced G+ changes are an unspoken admission of three things:

1. Genie (the itinerary app) has failed. Guests caught on pretty quick that it was routing them to less-popular, under-used attractions instead of helping them see the best rides in the park. People were willing to put up with using Fastpass+ at Mad Tea Party because Fastpass+ was free. You can't combine paying $60 for a family of four for Genie+, with Genie telling you to visit Swiss Family Treehouse.
   
   
2. Disney hasn't built enough high-capacity, popular rides over the last 20 years, to keep up with today's attendance numbers.
   
   
3. Ride downtime is having a significant effect on wait times. Some recent downtime numbers:

EPCOT

• Frozen: Over an hour of downtime per day
• Remy: Over an hour of downtime per day
• Spaceship Earth: Over an hour per day
• Test Track: More than an hour and a half per day
• Journey Into Imagination: Nearly 30 mins

Hollywood Studios

• ROTR: 2 hours/day
• Rock ‘n’ Roller Coaster: 80 minutes/day
• Runaway Railway: 45 mins/day
• Slinky Dog Dash: 30 minutes/day
• Tower: 30 mins/day (and that's at reduced capacity)

Magic Kingdom

• Splash: 75 mins/day
• Big Thunder: 60 mins/day
• Pooh: Almost 50 mins/day
• Pirates: 45 minutes/day
• Space: 40 mins/day
• Mansion: 30 mins/day
• 7DMT: 30 mins/day
• Peter Pan: 25 minutes/day
• Astro Orbiter: 25 minutes/day
• Barnstormer: 25 minutes/day

That's many, many thousands of lost rides per day.

One problem is that the existing rides are already running at 100% capacity. So when a ride breaks down and cannot fulfill its existing Genie+ ride reservations, there's no additional system capacity to soak up the displaced riders. That makes the standby lines much, much longer. Also, people know that offering a replacement G+ reservation for Under the Sea isn't adequate compensation for missing out on Big Thunder Mountain. There just aren't enough popular rides in each park.

(As a side note, think about what happens at Animal Kingdom when a ride like Everest goes offline for a couple months in winter. Nobody's going on Kali because it's cold. So guests are left with Na'Vi, Safaris, and DINOSAUR as top-tier choices. That's a tough sell at $60 for a family of four.)

Regarding building new rides, I know EPCOT now has Remy and GOTG, but those are the first all-new rides since ... 2005? It makes it very, very difficult to do long-term maintenance on rides like SSE, when they can't afford to lose that capacity. So this is a problem that's two decades in the making, and that's not going to be solved in the next couple of years.

ETA: Fixed typo.

Good info. I completely agree that Disney has not done enough to add attractions and people eater things to spread out and handle crowds. It’s a problem real management should have seen coming and been proactive instead of the panic reacting now trying to band-aid an amputation

 

[kalel8145]

For what it's worth, I think yesterday's announced G+ changes are an unspoken admission of three things:

1. Genie (the itinerary app) has failed. Guests caught on pretty quick that it was routing them to less-popular, under-used attractions instead of helping them see the best rides in the park. People were willing to put up with using Fastpass+ at Mad Tea Party because Fastpass+ was free. You can't combine paying $60 for a family of four for Genie+, with Genie telling you to visit Swiss Family Treehouse.
   
   
2. Disney hasn't built enough high-capacity, popular rides over the last 20 years, to keep up with today's attendance numbers.
   
   
3. Ride downtime is having a significant effect on wait times. Some recent downtime numbers:

EPCOT

• Frozen: Over an hour of downtime per day
• Remy: Over an hour of downtime per day
• Spaceship Earth: Over an hour per day
• Test Track: More than an hour and a half per day
• Journey Into Imagination: Nearly 30 mins

Hollywood Studios

• ROTR: 2 hours/day
• Rock ‘n’ Roller Coaster: 80 minutes/day
• Runaway Railway: 45 mins/day
• Slinky Dog Dash: 30 minutes/day
• Tower: 30 mins/day (and that's at reduced capacity)

Magic Kingdom

• Splash: 75 mins/day
• Big Thunder: 60 mins/day
• Pooh: Almost 50 mins/day
• Pirates: 45 minutes/day
• Space: 40 mins/day
• Mansion: 30 mins/day
• 7DMT: 30 mins/day
• Peter Pan: 25 minutes/day
• Astro Orbiter: 25 minutes/day
• Barnstormer: 25 minutes/day

That's many, many thousands of lost rides per day.

One problem is that the existing rides are already running at 100% capacity. So when a ride breaks down and cannot fulfill its existing Genie+ ride reservations, there's no additional system capacity to soak up the displaced riders. That makes the standby lines much, much longer. Also, people know that offering a replacement G+ reservation for Under the Sea isn't adequate compensation for missing out on Big Thunder Mountain. There just aren't enough popular rides in each park.

(As a side note, think about what happens at Animal Kingdom when a ride like Everest goes offline for a couple months in winter. Nobody's going on Kali because it's cold. So guests are left with Na'Vi, Safaris, and DINOSAUR as top-tier choices. That's a tough sell at $60 for a family of four.)

Regarding building new rides, I know EPCOT now has Remy and GOTG, but those are the first all-new rides since ... 2005? It makes it very, very difficult to do long-term maintenance on rides like SSE, when they can't afford to lose that capacity. So this is a problem that's two decades in the making, and that's not going to be solved in the next couple of years.

ETA: Fixed typo.

Wow. Great information and eye opening. Thank you..

 

[rescue_ranger]

Good info. I completely agree that Disney has not done enough to add attractions and people eater things to spread out and handle crowds. It’s a problem real management should have seen coming and been proactive instead of the panic reacting now trying to band-aid an amputation

Being proactive would mean they would have had to worry less about how high they could get stockholder shares in the short term and instead focus on setting up the parks for long-term success.

 

[Demarke]

I wouldn't say always, I have taken last minute trips during March and found absolutely nothing. But again, consider the scenario where you see a IASM opening - but you don't really want to ride IASM. If that's the only thing available, you're far more likely to reserve it if you had paid than if it were free. Compound that over thousands of guests, that means a lot of people making LL selections just for the sake of making LL selections because they are trying to get their money's worth.

That, and with fastpass, most newbies would book their three throughout the day, so maybe their third was an 8pm headliner attraction so they couldn’t get a bonus pick until then. The Genie+ system seems to flood what’s available now. So while only the savvy were getting more than 3-4 before, now everyone has an expectation that they’ll get 5-7+. You go from only people competing for openings after they used their three, to everybody competing for everything all day long. I think that’s a part of why it seems there’s less availability, it’s because all the people that were using 3 before (and may not have even known they could get more after), are trying to use as many as possible now.

Also, when people are “competing” for line skips and, particularly when they’ve paid for them, it makes going to a people-eater like a show feel like you’re wasting time and money. “Hmm, I might like tiki birds or country bears or philharmagic, but a LL for Its a Small World just opened up, better get my $15 worth!” Which just compounds the line issues and leaves quality theater shows empty and at risk of going vacant (because, let’s be honest, they wouldn’t put anything new in those spaces any sooner than their plans for the space with Stitch’s Great Escape).

 

[GhostHost1000]

Being proactive would mean they would have had to worry less about how high they could get stockholder shares and instead focus on long-term success.

Yeah very true. I would hate for them to think of the guest experience like Walt did.

 

[Ldno]

Trying to understand this statement a little more:

"If you already purchased a ticket that includes Disney Genie+ service for dates later in 2022, don’t worry – you’ll be able to use the service during your visit."

Yes I know I'll be able to use the service during my visit but does that mean I will have to purchase it each day? It would have been clearer if it stated something like your purchases will be honoured and there will be no need to purchase each day.

Also, does your booking have to be paid in full before June 8th, or is the $200 deposit enough to lock in Genie Plus on all your days?

You buy the service in conjunction with the tickets, i.e. Single day or multi day Tickets, If you booked via disneyworld.com it’s automatic factored in your pricing, travel agents should had already included this

 

[Jeff4272]

Yes.

I dont think so.......Depends when you're going...........You really dont need it at Epcot and AK when it's slower times

Unless they restrict sales (which they havent yet), then i would hold off becuase you have to buy it for every day you have a ticket and you might not need or want it

 

[Disney Glimpses]

Do you mean nothing you wanted to do, or nothing at all?

What I'm getting at is that FP+ was never so limited that Disney would have to warn guests that they should expect to experience no more than two or three attractions a day; there was always something to book, even if it wasn't your cup of tea. (And I'm not even counting the three pre-booked FastPasses.)

Nothing I wanted to do. But that's my point, had I paid for the service and looked and saw "Barnstormer - 8:40pm" and that's all that was there, I'd use it. The point I am drilling down to is inventory is getting used regardless of if people want the selection or not.

Consider this analogy - you walk into a garage sale and are told you can take one thing for free. But it's all these old dusty trinkets that you really have no need for and would just take up space.

Or - you are told pay $15 and you can take one thing for free. Same crappy inventory, but you've paid and you feel compelled to walk out of there with something.

 

[DCLcruiser]

It's a complicated dynamic. For one, attractions are a bit more taxed right now since not all entertainment, offerings, dining has returned. Secondly, it's not that there are less people in the LL lines but simply the expectation has changed.

There's a big difference between paying $15 for a service that allows you to skip the line and finding no availability vs. the old model where it was free and if there was no availability you simply shrugged and closed the app.

There's also another interesting dynamic: people are much more likely to heavily use a product/service that they paid for vs. one that is included for free. So while only 1/3 people who had access to FP+ are using Genie+, that 1/3 is using it quite heavily (and again with reasonably high expectations).

Finally, overall attraction inventory isn't great right now due to ILL along with attraction downtime.

This problem of no inventory is also not unique to Genie+, the 60 day FP selection window was very much a rat race of its own, just not as difficult. Once resort guests made their selections, it was really slim pickings for everyone else. But again, no one was directly paying for this so expectations were relatively low.

Thank you. This make the current situation clear.

 

[LittleBuford]

Nothing I wanted to do. But that's my point, had I paid for the service and looked and saw "Barnstormer - 8:40pm" and that's all that was there, I'd use it. The point I am drilling down to is inventory is getting used regardless of if people want the selection or not.

Consider this analogy - you walk into a garage sale and are told you can take one thing for free. But it's all these old dusty trinkets that you really have no need for and would just take up space.

Or - you are told pay $15 and you can take one thing for free. Same crappy inventory, but you've paid and you feel compelled to walk out of there with something.

I totally get the distinction you're drawing, but it still doesn't explain to me Disney's "two to three attractions a day" warning. They're not telling guests they should expect to ride only two or three attractions that appeal to them, but only two or three attractions full stop. If that's indeed the case, the situation is very different from what used to happen with FP+.

 

[Disney Glimpses]

I totally get the distinction you're drawing, but it still doesn't explain to me Disney's "two to three attractions a day" warning. They're not telling guests they should expect to ride only two or three attractions that appeal to them, but only two or three attractions full stop. If that's indeed the case, the situation is very different from what used to happen with FP+.

That warning is in reaction to how quickly the service deteriorated. That was not their initial expectation (which AFAIK was 5-8). Now, are they going to cap inventory so that you do get 5-8? I doubt it. But I can see them targeting 4-6.

 

[Vacationeer]

Maybe they should include something free again in a regular ticket, then offer the upgrade option at a not insignificant price.
Guests get two Virtual Queues per day, One from the high tier and one from the lower. Name them something like Adventure Tier (Top 3 rides per park) and Fun Tier (includes shows, parade/firework view).

WDW painted themselves into a corner. By optimizing the **** out of everything they left no room for error. They enjoyed parks crowding to the point people rationalized adding-on EMM, DAH, MVMCP, MNSSHP, desserts and dinner packages. They got us paying more than ever so now each hiccup and misstep is turning the tide on how much a guest is willing to overlook. They need some goodwill to reverse the negative tide. If the only options become a very expensive Genie Package or long lines all day, people are going to be even more upset.

 

[Thepuma]

I totally get the distinction you're drawing, but it still doesn't explain to me Disney's "two to three attractions a day" warning. They're not telling guests they should expect to ride only two or three attractions that appeal to them, but only two or three attractions full stop. If that's indeed the case, the situation is very different from what used to happen with FP+.

Crikey...just imagine paying $520 for a family of four to get into MK...then paying another $60...and only expecting to get on 3 rides!!!

Wow!!

 

[WDWFREAK53]

Maybe they should include something free again in a regular ticket, then offer the upgrade option at a not insignificant price.
Guests get two Virtual Queues per day, One from the high tier and one from the lower. Name them something like Adventure Tier (Top 3 rides per park) and Fun Tier (includes shows, parade/firework view).

WDW painted themselves into a corner. By optimizing the **** out of everything they left no room for error. They enjoyed parks crowding to the point people rationalized adding-on EMM, DAH, MVMCP, MNSSHP, desserts and dinner packages. They got us paying more than ever so now each hiccup and misstep is turning the tide on how much a guest is willing to overlook. They need some goodwill to reverse the negative tide. If the only options become a very expensive Genie Package or long lines all day, people are going to be even more upset.

Or more likely...very expensive Genie Packages WITH long lines all day.

 

[MrPromey]

They haven’t have they?

Nope, they haven't.

We went to Universal this weekend.

It was busy.

Both parks were open 9am-10pm (early entry for APs and and resort guests at 8am for IOA - we used early entry to do Hagrid's with a 45 minute wait). For the first open hour of the day (after 9am), you could get on most headliners in 25 minutes or less, Hagrid's and Velosicoaster being the exceptions.

For the middle of the day, wait times for nearly everything went up to 45-60 minutes in both parks. The train to Universal from IOA was 45 minutes but train from Universal to IOA was 60, for instance.

In the late afternoon, times started to fall again with popular attractions such as Spiderman going down to 35 minutes.

Simpsons was 25 and MIB was 15 after 4pm.

In the last hour and a half the two parks were open, wait times for everything but Hagrid's and Velosicoaster dropped to between 10 (in reality, a walk-on) and 25 minutes. Even Velosicoaster was down to about 35 with Hagrid's holding strong at 90 minutes.

Turns out, when you have attraction capacity and good hours, you don't need convoluted systems to shuffle your guests around all day and people don't need to pay extra to do more than a small handful of things.

 

[Vacationeer]

Turns out when you have attraction capacity and good hours, you don't need convoluted systems to shuffle your guests around all day.

More hours for sure!
But that leaves a halfpenny left on the table

 

[MrPromey]

MaxPass at DLR worked similarly to G+, right? I don't remember having any issues with it. How can G+ be so much worse?

In the case of DLR vs. WDW, DLR has roughly the same number of attractions in two parks that WDW has spread across four.

When you're spending a day in a park, that leaves a LOT more options open to DLR guests than those at WDW... and that's not even considering how many more guests WDW sees in a day vs DLR.

It's more people spread across more space with actually far less to do per park.

That's the problem in a nutshell - WDW is dramatically under-built when it comes to desirable capacity vs. guest count and their emphasis on replacing rather than expanding when they have room to do both in all parks* only makes things worse when most replacements have shorter ride-times and often lower hourly capacity than what they were replacing.


*The only one where that is a bit tricky is Hollywood Studios - you know, the one where they most recently built an expansive land with only two attractions - and even there, they have options.

 

[Patcheslee]

A big one is not enough capacity for it to work good. Another one is many use Genie+ mainly for top attractions. I can't count how many times I have heard people say they don't see the point using on attractions like Buzz Lightyear or Living with the Land.

If something is a 5-20 minute wait on many days, people may not want to deal with the hassle of waiting for a time slot vs just go when already in the area.

 

[MrPromey]

... After hours doesn't stop you from getting on rides during the day...

It does if they're reducing hours during the day to offer those after hours experiences.

 

[GhostHost1000]

It would be interesting to see how much guest attendance has increased vs new attractions and shows (subtracting any they have closed and not counting any they’ve just redone/replaced in the same spot)

and oh yeah park hour decreases as well. I remember when MK was open well into the AM hours at times