Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[SteveAZee]

You haven't been paying attention - they don't want to reduce demand at all. They want as many bodies in the parks as they can get.

I think that if they had a way to both dial back attendance AND increase earnings (not necessarily revenue) they would do that. One approach is to target high spending visitors; another is to raise prices across the board. It seems like they're doing both at the moment and testing the waters. It's possible that in a year or two they will find another sweet spot of reasonable crowds throughout the year and increased earnings... but in the mean time there are going to be a lot of annoyed guests.

 

[Patcheslee]

And to add on with another thought. Whatever number X is... this is a function of the admission price. If admission was only $50 a day, more people would be fine with only getting on 1 headliner than if it's $100 a day or $150 a day. Every time Disney raises a price, they increase the demand for headliners. Because then people start thinking, if I am spending that much money I want to get these 6 rides minimum, instead of 3 or 4.

Disney used to determine the minimum of number of experiences for a successful day. It's not good enough anymore, people have changed. It has to be broken down to A. Headliners and B. Total (headliners + other stuff). If B is significantly higher than their expectations for B, maybe then can get away with a lower amount of headliners. But if people can't get A or B... that's when they show up at GS screaming about lines.

Looks like they already set themselves a line of expectations. The planDisney panel suggests:

 

[Patcheslee]

The problem with charging $150 for unlimited FP on top of park admission is just what you said "less people will buy it" and the lucky guest that does will get lots of rides.
That is not the goal of LL or G+. Disney wants more money so selling expensive passes to a few people is much less money than selling a dubious perk to the masses. They are about the profit not the experience.

If I'm paying $150 for unlimited LL, I'd expect no scheduled times, and I'd be riding the same things 2 or 3 times before moving to the next attraction. Usually when we purchase skip the line systems it's when we plan to marathon top attractions.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I think that if they had a way to both dial back attendance AND increase earnings (not necessarily revenue) they would do that. One approach is to target high spending visitors; another is to raise prices across the board. It seems like they're doing both at the moment and testing the waters. It's possible that in a year or two they will find another sweet spot of reasonable crowds throughout the year and increased earnings... but in the mean time there are going to be a lot of annoyed guests.

There's only one problem...pricing people out erodes the good will they've been riding on...as we're seeing on these very forums. They need to address the root issue - failure to expand capacity in all of the parks, or this WILL come back to bite them in one form or another. They can't have their cake and eat it, too...it's mathematically impossible.

 

[doctornick]

Or justification for knowing you need 2000+ pph headliners like Universal builds but Disney *chooses* to build ones that are 1400 like FOP and then markets the heck out them, and then someone like you comes around and looks at the size of the line and declares, “There is nothing that can be done.”

Just a question, but what Uni attractions have been built with 2000+ hourly capacity? I know Forbidden Journey is a beast of capacity but most of their newer stuff doesn’t seem all that different from what Disney has been doing. Do Hagrids or Velocicoaster have really high hourly numbers?

 

[JoeCamel]

Just a question, but what Uni attractions have been built with 2000+ hourly capacity? I know Forbidden Journey is a beast of capacity but most of their newer stuff doesn’t seem all that different from what Disney has been doing. Do Hagrids or Velocicoaster have really high hourly numbers?

No they don't but they do have more big ones

 

[flynnibus]

Just a question, but what Uni attractions have been built with 2000+ hourly capacity? I know Forbidden Journey is a beast of capacity but most of their newer stuff doesn’t seem all that different from what Disney has been doing. Do Hagrids or Velocicoaster have really high hourly numbers?

UNI doesn't have nearly the crowds Disney does.. but both new coasters are in the 1700/hr range for full load. Hagrids of course was well known for not being able to run full capacity

 

[hopemax]

Universal is tight lipped on everything. Kong, I've seen listed at 2160. Velocicoaster, someone estimated at just above 1700 THRC so OHRC is lower, but given the intensity of ride it is they probably can get away with that. Hagrid's I think is also around 1700. But even their older rides Hulk is1960 , RRR is 1850, Mummy is about 2000, Jurassic Park is 3000, Spider-Man someone estimated 2160, Transformers should be fairly similar. MIB shows up at 2200.

 

[disneygeek90]

Just a question, but what Uni attractions have been built with 2000+ hourly capacity? I know Forbidden Journey is a beast of capacity but most of their newer stuff doesn’t seem all that different from what Disney has been doing. Do Hagrids or Velocicoaster have really high hourly numbers?

I don’t have the numbers, but Velocicoaster moves faster than any roller coaster I’ve seen (especially being only 2 across per row). That line is always moving and quick, it eats people. And I’m not just talking about the raptors

 

[hopemax]

UNI doesn't have nearly the crowds Disney does.. but both new coasters are in the 1700/hr range for full load. Hagrids of course was well known for not being able to run full capacity

I imagine during peak periods Universal hits comparable numbers as busy days on Disney (although maybe not Disney's peak, but average summer). It's just that Disney has many, many more days higher than Universal year round. But if Universal builds 1700 when they have fewer guests on average, 1700 is not acceptable for Disney super-headliner like Rise or FOP's signature park 1400. If these rides are supposed to actually drive new vacations, you need some seats to actually put people.

 

[wutisgood]

"Sorry, kids, we can't go on this ride because we didn't get a spot online" Why even go if you can't get on all the rides. no point anymore.

What many people on the boards don't realize is that the planners are now getting a taste for what many people have experienced for years who don't plan as well. The amount of people out there who go to disney and don't get on much of anything but don't even complain about it is scary. I went to knotts a few months ago and got every Halloween maze and show done in one night. I met some people who came in without a plan at park open and they got a show a ride and 1 maze done. I would never spend money on anything with such a poor return but many people do.

Eh. I think the difference has nothing to do with Walt era DL but what has been done since then. At DLR, they rarely reduce capacity, instead they have been squeezing out more and more out of the same space and adding anything wherever they can. Even when they do replacement attractions, the capacity of the new ones has tended to at least be comparable.

Disneyland has very limited on site hotels as well meaning the only way they can increase revenue apart from raising ticket/food prices is to get more people in the parks. Every ride that gets built increases line capacity and thus the legal limit of the park. It is why Halloween events have the largest capacity in many parks. If disneyland builds an E ticket that adds 1000 people per day to max capacity that can be directly viewed as a addition that can be monetized in ticket sales. In disney world they limit capacity which leads to increased hotel stays and more money for disney oer guest. This is why the experience is so much worse in florida.

Turning your product into something else is also not a fix.

At this point I am begging disney to build anything at all that is good and I can ride. The days of "disney cheapening the product" with an exposed coaster are over. It's already not cheap, those rides would be slammed every day, and as long as they don't remove any legacy tides you can ignore them if you don't like them. I mean disney today is putting barges in the epcot lagoon that do nothing but 20 mins out of the day. There are 30 million dollar or less rides that are considered some of the best in the world yet no one would want them at disney? Clone lightning rod, phoenix, steel vengeance, fury, etc and put them anywhere. You could theme them to a turd and it would still improve my day. These parks are pushing $150-200 a day 30 million is budget scraps at this point.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Well EPCOT is going through a bit of a reimagining. But it is kind of funny that in a thread where people keep insisting they need more attractions to fix "the problem," they keep pointing out that Disney is actually building a lot of attractions.

They’re not increasing capacity. Tearing down half your house and then building back something smaller is not an expansion. Magic Kingdom has abandoned retail, dining and attraction space. Epcot’s new attractions have significantly less capacity. Disney’s Hollywood Studios is not much bigger than it was when Sunset Blvd opened. Disney’s Animal Kingdom is just now likely at its originally programmed capacity.

 

[disneygeek90]

They’re not increasing capacity. Tearing down half your house and then building back something smaller is not an expansion. Magic Kingdom has abandoned retail, dining and attraction space. Epcot’s new attractions have significantly less capacity. Disney’s Hollywood Studios is not much bigger than it was when Sunset Blvd opened. Disney’s Animal Kingdom is just now likely at its originally programmed capacity.

The part that truly bothers me is the animation courtyard in HS. A shuttered show… a disneys toddler/youth show… and then whatever the heck Launch Bay is supposed to be these days. A terrible use of space for all of it.

 

[el_super]

It is probably best to stop all the second guessing and Monday morning quaterbacking, and just sit back and watch Disney run their business. Pretty sure those that keep thinking they need to add some endless number of attractions will just be forever disappointed anyway.

 

[BrianLo]

The fact that MM+ and FP+ cost $2 BILLION...and yet they felt the need to ditch that system and try a different approach by spending another $2 BILLION just 7 years later is proof positive that the system was a failure...and here they are again trying to keep shuffling people around instead of addressing the root problem.

Who claimed they spent 2 billion on Genie+? There hasn't been enough Capex spending worldwide (where every park still has active projects, including the new cruise ships) to justify that number on Genie+ alone. Genie+ is also just built on top of their previous architecture, nothing was really thrown out.

I'd hazard Genie+ will be recouping whatever they spent on it in short order.

 

[Ayla]

No



No - just convenience when you decide to buy.

Thanks.

 

[Cosmic Commando]

OK again it's a simple question: At what point did they add something to the parks that resulted in everyone going "wow the place isn't crowded anymore?"

I'm picturing you in a rowboat that has sprung a leak. The boat is rapidly filling up with water. Your shipmates grab buckets and start bailing out the water, but they're barely keeping up with the rising water level. Just when things start looking really bleak, your eyes light up as you have that eureka moment that will save everyone. "Has bailing out the water ever actually gotten the boat dry? Why are you all wasting your time?"

 

[crazy4disney]

I’ve seen other reports saying Guest Services were advising people to keep their ADRs and then explain at the ride entrance if it caused you to miss your entry time. That was always the case with the Boarding Groups for Rise and should still apply. The only potential issue should have been a delay to when you could book your next G+ ride.

Did Guest Services advise you differently? If so I would email them and express your disappointment. In fact I suggest you do that anyway.

I had this issue a few times last week while i was there the Blue Umbrella Guest experience team changed the time in system all i needed was to show the receipt of where i ate to "prove" i was at dinner.

 

[Disstevefan1]

You haven't been paying attention - they don't want to reduce demand at all. They want as many bodies in the parks as they can get.

Not sure if they want as many bodies in the parks as they can get, as much as, getting the most money as possible from each body in the park.

Eliminating APs, raising prices on everything, pay to ride, and maybe in the future PAY FOR PARK PASS RESERVATION, will price out folks who would have otherwise gone to the park.

The result is less folks in the park (lowering overall costs) , each paying more money to the Mouse..

 

[Thepuma]

After experiencing Disney Parks 3 days in a row, I can categorically state I will NEVER visit a Disney park in Orlando ever again

This Genie LL plus garbage has totally ruined the experience, ruined the park, ed us off totally, got us fed up and totally taken away ANY enjoyment of the parks.

We are 4 days into our Orlando 2 week trip and decided to stick to Universals,sea world and busch gardens.

1) panicking at 7am as to what Genie Plus we can get

2) not knowing what to rope dropped as you don't know if/when you might get a LL+

3) trying to get into the park through security and scan your band in, at the EXACT time individual lighting lanes come available at park open.

4)stampede of people at park open with many with heads in their phones like zombies bumbing into everyone

5)individual lightning lanes selling out BEFORE non park guests get a chance to look

6)rides going down for prolonged periods randomly after queueing a long time

And the list goes on and on.

I would much prefer a totally wait in line for EVERYONE or if they are that desperate for money, make the fast pass system $300 or something

The whole thing is confusing, the maps on the app are diabolical, the operating system is seriously flawed...we went to pay for LL+ and at the end it kicked us out....then none were available.

A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE experience...never again

Another thing..how come there are so many children in the parks? I thought in the US thanksgiving was last week?

Anyway..sorry for the rant...im an experienced Disney Parker and this whole thing is a nightmare for me, so God knows how Newcomers get on...

Total disaster.

Thank god I'm here for 2 weeks and I can spend time now in other parks.