Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[ImperfectPixie]

Not sure if they want as many bodies in the parks as they can get, as much as, getting the most money as possible from each body in the park.

Eliminating APs, raising prices on everything, pay to ride, and maybe in the future PAY FOR PARK PASS RESERVATION, will price out folks who would have otherwise gone to the park.

The result is less folks in the park (lowering overall costs) , each paying more money to the Mouse..

They want both. More bodies and more money from each. They'll never purposely limit attendance...that's a pipe dream.

 

[G00fyDad]

After experiencing Disney Parks 3 days in a row, I can categorically state I will NEVER visit a Disney park in Orlando ever again

This Genie LL plus garbage has totally ruined the experience, ruined the park, ****ed us off totally, got us fed up and totally taken away ANY enjoyment of the parks.

We are 4 days into our Orlando 2 week trip and decided to stick to Universals,sea world and busch gardens.

1) panicking at 7am as to what Genie Plus we can get

2) not knowing what to rope dropped as you don't know if/when you might get a LL+

3) trying to get into the park through security and scan your band in, at the EXACT time individual lighting lanes come available at park open.

4)stampede of people at park open with many with heads in their phones like zombies bumbing into everyone

5)individual lightning lanes selling out BEFORE non park guests get a chance to look

6)rides going down for prolonged periods randomly after queueing a long time

And the list goes on and on.

I would much prefer a totally wait in line for EVERYONE or if they are that desperate for money, make the fast pass system $300 or something

The whole thing is confusing, the maps on the app are diabolical, the operating system is seriously flawed...we went to pay for LL+ and at the end it kicked us out....then none were available.

A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE experience...never again

Another thing..how come there are so many children in the parks? I thought in the US thanksgiving was last week?

Anyway..sorry for the rant...im an experienced Disney Parker and this whole thing is a nightmare for me, so God knows how Newcomers get on...

Total disaster.

Thank god I'm here for 2 weeks and I can spend time now in other parks.

Not trying to diminish your experience or say that it was not horrible for you but...

1) Typically that panic is a direct result of the person and not the situation. Relax and just refresh the app over and over. Your desired LL will probably come up.

2) If you pay attention to those on this board that have been since this disaster started then you can be reasonably sure which attraction to RD.

3) Yeah. That would be a little hectic. I am glad we are staying on-site so that will not be an issue for us but I do understand your frustration.

4) That has been the way it has been since the introduction of FP+. Irritating but nothing new.

5) Refresh 2 to 5 minutes after park open and they will re-populate. (At least that is what is being reported.) Disney slow drops more throughout the day. Thanksgiving week blew up in their faces though and I imagine any other busy week will be the same way.

6) Yeah. That would **** me off too. You would think that with as much money as Disney parks make that they could keep these things running smoothly.

 

[Disstevefan1]

They want both. More bodies and more money from each. They'll never purposely limit attendance...that's a pipe dream.

I am not saying they would turn folks away, I mean, you want in, you gotta pay more, you want to ride, you gotta pay more.

Fact is, some folks can’t and some folks won’t.

Disney need not limit attendance, it will happen on its own.

This just equates to less folks paying more.

Attendance as the only measure of success is wrong.

Spending per guest is a better measure.

It’s all about the MONEY COMING IN.

 

[pdude81]

Not sure if they want as many bodies in the parks as they can get, as much as, getting the most money as possible from each body in the park.

Eliminating APs, raising prices on everything, pay to ride, and maybe in the future PAY FOR PARK PASS RESERVATION, will price out folks who would have otherwise gone to the park.

The result is less folks in the park (lowering overall costs) , each paying more money to the Mouse..

They want both. More bodies and more money from each. They'll never purposely limit attendance...that's a pipe dream.

Right now they have to limit attendance, so they are trying to increase margins in the formula. Then later they can open the floodgates (to guests, if they still want to come) and hopefully build some more attractions with the knowledge that each allows for more money to flow through Genie.

I don't see any world where they WANT to limit attendance. That would just be a talking point to limit fallout when the attendance projections look shaky. I think if there was "unprecedented demand" from October through now, they'd have increased wages already to ramp up operations.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I am not saying they would turn folks away, I mean, you want in, you gotta pay more, you want to ride, you gotta pay more.

Fact is, some folks can’t and some folks won’t.

Disney need not limit attendance, it will happen on its own.

This just equates to less folks paying more.

Attendance as the only measure of success is wrong.

Spending per guest is a better measure.

It’s all about the MONEY COMING IN.

Wall Street demands quarter over quarter increases in earnings. They will squeeze as many bodies into the parks as humanly possible and charge as much as possible to maintain that.

 

[el_super]

"Has bailing out the water ever actually gotten the boat dry? Why are you all wasting your time?"

It seems like a simple question that has still gone unanswered. I understand that everyone might be talking about two different things, but in a discussion about a crowd management solution, saying the parks need more capacity misses the point. Genie+ and Lightning Lane (and Fastpass before it) was offered as a guest service to people who demanded the opportunity to wait less in the parks. It's addressing the very real guest complaints that are generated when lines are long in the park. Those guest complaints don't stop just because you build a new attraction. Their focus just changes to the new attraction you are offering that has a really long wait because it's in high demand.

There is a really good example of this at Disneyland, during the Eisner era:

1986: Captain EO opens (3 hour line)
1987: Star Tours opens (3 hour line, but now Capt EO is OK)
1989: Splash Mountain opens (3 hour line, but now Star Tours is an hour)
1992: Fantasmic opens (its a mess)
1993: The riverfront has to be completely redesigned to handle the increased crowds for Fantasmic. It's still a mess.
1994: Cartoon Spin opens (that never had a three hour line)
1995: Indiana Jones opens (3+ hour lines).
1996: Captain EO closes because it's relatively empty.

It's not just a matter of induced demand, where new attractions are generating additional attendance, but also of changing crowd patterns and moving people around the park in unintended ways. Since the time a guest spends in the park is relatively fixed, and they will only ever experience a fraction of the attractions in a park, the ones they dedicate their time and attention to, are usually on the higher end of the tier listing. Changing the attraction roster just changes the individual calculations of each guest every day.

It should also be noted that in the 10 years above at Disneyland, the lowest performing attractions were also pruned from the roster as guests started to shun them: America Sings, Mission to Mars, Circle Vision, People Mover, Motor Boat Cruise, Skyway and Fantasyland Autopia. There just wasn't enough time in the day, to stand in line for Indy and Splash, still do favorites like Pirates and Mansion, and have time for those little ancillary experiences. And anyone that was around Disneyland in the late 1990s knows that there were very real threats that others would be removed too: Lincoln, Tiki Room, Country Bears, Submarine Voyage and Snow White were all suffering to find crowds during this period. It turns out that adding capacity to the top, just drops utilization at the bottom.

This is the period when Fastpass started to be developed. On the heels of ten years of unprecedented growth. In a period where new attractions every year still generated guest complaints regarding crowding and long lines. Where older attractions struggled to find an audience, despite record attendance.

So not, it's not a question of whether bailing out water actually works because we know it doesn't. It's a fundamentally different question entirely. Like thinking that making the boat go faster will drain the water: it won't and it never has.

 

[el_super]

Wall Street demands quarter over quarter increases in earnings. They will squeeze as many bodies into the parks as humanly possible and charge as much as possible to maintain that.

They've literally been telling investors for two years now, they can make more money with less people in the park. Do you really think they would be lying to their investors?

 

[ImperfectPixie]

They've literally been telling investors for two years now, they can make more money with less people in the park. Do you really think they would be lying to their investors?

They'll spin things to investors however they think they need to.

 

[el_super]

They'll spin things to investors however they think they need to.

Yeah, except there are actual laws surrounding what they can and cannot say to investors. They had to say that attendance declined and they had to say that revenues were up. You don't actually think they were just making it up?

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Yeah, except there are actual laws surrounding what they can and cannot say to investors. They had to say that attendance declined and they had to say that revenues were up. You don't actually think they were just making it up?

Are you saying they wanted attendance to decline? Because I guarantee you they didn't.

They want the maximum number of guests and the max revenue per guest.

ETA: Iger said they knew they had a crowd problem. So what did he do? Did he add significantly more capacity and space to any of the parks? Did he limit the number of guests allowed into the parks? No. (Covid did that for him later on...but I guarantee you he would never have done that himself.) He invested billions into yet another failing means of trying to manipulate guest behavior...because they don't give a rat's behind about guest experience (in other words...they want the most people they can get into the parks and the most revenue per guest that they can squeeze).

 

[Disstevefan1]

Right now they have to limit attendance, so they are trying to increase margins in the formula. Then later they can open the floodgates (to guests, if they still want to come) and hopefully build some more attractions with the knowledge that each allows for more money to flow through Genie.

I don't see any world where they WANT to limit attendance. That would just be a talking point to limit fallout when the attendance projections look shaky. I think if there was "unprecedented demand" from October through now, they'd have increased wages already to ramp up operations.

As I stated in previous posts -

I am not saying they would turn folks away, I mean, you want in, you gotta pay more, you want to ride, you gotta pay more.

Fact is, some folks can’t and some folks won’t.

Disney need not limit attendance, it will happen on its own.

This just equates to less folks paying more.

Attendance as the only measure of success is wrong.

Spending per guest is a better measure.

It’s all about the MONEY COMING IN.

 

[Purduevian]

Think of how many tiers of guests now walk through the parks each day all based on price.
Standard guest ~$150
G+ guest ~$165
G+ and ILL guest ~$190
VIP Tour Guest ~$alot

Then it is further split into
Offsite
Value or Moderate guest
Deluxe resort guest
Golden Oaks
Club 33

 

[Jeff4272]

I imagine during peak periods Universal hits comparable numbers as busy days on Disney (although maybe not Disney's peak, but average summer). It's just that Disney has many, many more days higher than Universal year round. But if Universal builds 1700 when they have fewer guests on average, 1700 is not acceptable for Disney super-headliner like Rise or FOP's signature park 1400. If these rides are supposed to actually drive new vacations, you need some seats to actually put people.

I just rode FOP on Tuesday 11/23, waited 140 mins and that was getting in line at 7:40am pre opening as a resort guest and when we got to the end of the line, that cast member told us they average 200 people every 5 minutes, so 2400 average hourly capacity........

 

[Jrb1979]

The problem with charging $150 for unlimited FP on top of park admission is just what you said "less people will buy it" and the lucky guest that does will get lots of rides.
That is not the goal of LL or G+. Disney wants more money so selling expensive passes to a few people is much less money than selling a dubious perk to the masses. They are about the profit not the experience.

I understand what Disney's goal from it is. All I'm saying is they don't understand how it should work. Like I said in another thread Disney doesn't know how to run a theme park anymore. Some Six Flags are run better

 

[el_super]

ETA: Iger said they knew they had a crowd problem. So what did he do? Did he add significantly more capacity and space to any of the parks? Did he limit the number of guests allowed into the parks? No.

They kind of did. When Star Wars opened at Disneyland, they cut back on the AP program, stopped selling passes, raised prices and blockout dates. They also significantly raised one-day ticket prices, which they knew would result in fewer people.

And then later on they ditched the old AP program entirely, and have since stopped selling APs at DLR and WDW. They know those actions will have a negative impact on attendance, and they're OK with it.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It seems like a simple question that has still gone unanswered. I understand that everyone might be talking about two different things, but in a discussion about a crowd management solution, saying the parks need more capacity misses the point. Genie+ and Lightning Lane (and Fastpass before it) was offered as a guest service to people who demanded the opportunity to wait less in the parks. It's addressing the very real guest complaints that are generated when lines are long in the park. Those guest complaints don't stop just because you build a new attraction. Their focus just changes to the new attraction you are offering that has a really long wait because it's in high demand.

You refuse to believe it can be answered because Disney shifted after Euro Disney from 1.5 attractions per guest per hour to 7.3 attractions per day. You’ve already said you reject any answer that contradicts Disney and have seemingly acknowledged you are deliberately confusing topics to prevent an answer.

This is the period when Fastpass started to be developed. On the heels of ten years of unprecedented growth. In a period where new attractions every year still generated guest complaints regarding crowding and long lines. Where older attractions struggled to find an audience, despite record attendance.

Are you going to tell us that “Riding the rides to failure” was also the right decision because Disney made it in this same period?

 

[rio]

I understand what Disney's goal from it is. All I'm saying is they don't understand how it should work. Like I said in another thread Disney doesn't know how to run a theme park anymore. Some Six Flags are run better

SF parks started the charging per ride thing before Disney though. You can now pay for individual Flash Pass uses on your phone or at the booth, but not for the newest stuff. Now Disney has 100% normalized it and can point to them as an example. The standby line still is a thing thankfully.

Otherwise, you're right-my Six Flags trips were pretty stress free this year and didn't involve much more planning than how I was getting there and staying near them! Great Adventure's operations were also stupidly good; the B&M flyer had trouble stacking! I'm not sure Disney could've accomplished that.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

They kind of did. When Star Wars opened at Disneyland, they cut back on the AP program, stopped selling passes, raised prices and blockout dates. They also significantly raised one-day ticket prices, which they knew would result in fewer people.

And then later on they ditched the old AP program entirely, and have since stopped selling APs at DLR and WDW. They know those actions will have a negative impact on attendance, and they're OK with it.

If you think they're okay with it, I've got a bridge to sell you.

 

[TrojanUSC]

If you think they're okay with it, I've got a bridge to sell you

The "reservations" are consistently sold out at DLR and occasionally at WDW, yet the crowd levels are nothing like they were pre-covid. They're just opting not to allow additional guests, when they easily could - as they aren't anywhere near phased closing levels of guests. They seemed to have figured out whatever the ideal number of guests is that keeps the crowd manageable (for them), staffing to a minimum, etc.

 

[Thepuma]

Not trying to diminish your experience or say that it was not horrible for you but...

1) Typically that panic is a direct result of the person and not the situation. Relax and just refresh the app over and over. Your desired LL will probably come up.

2) If you pay attention to those on this board that have been since this disaster started then you can be reasonably sure which attraction to RD.

3) Yeah. That would be a little hectic. I am glad we are staying on-site so that will not be an issue for us but I do understand your frustration.

4) That has been the way it has been since the introduction of FP+. Irritating but nothing new.

5) Refresh 2 to 5 minutes after park open and they will re-populate. (At least that is what is being reported.) Disney slow drops more throughout the day. Thanksgiving week blew up in their faces though and I imagine any other busy week will be the same way.

6) Yeah. That would **** me off too. You would think that with as much money as Disney parks make that they could keep these things running smoothly.

1) Maybe not panic, but you have a plan, then the LL+ you were looking to buy (and planned around) then sells out before the alloted window.

2) Nope....Rise LL+ went about 40 minutes BEFORE the alloted LL window....leaving my Genie Plus reservation pointless as we then had to Rope Drope ROTR and the G+ we had reserved had expired before we manged to get over there after Rise.

I know its all about money - but it's all so time consuming and frustrating (and costly) and you're spending most your day glued to your phone - while everyone's walking round like zombies on their phones too.

It's a shambles....