Lightning Lane at Walt Disney World

[flynnibus]

Just out of curiosity, how many people are usually in your party when you visit WDW? Your suggestions sound pretty reasonable for a solo traveler or party of two. But there are plenty of visitors with larger parties, many of them with members who depend upon schedules or find the kind of flexibility you’re describing difficult. I can’t imagine standing around with 6 adults and 3 kids trying to decide where to eat on the spur of the moment.

Minimum 5

It's the opposite for me.. the bigger the party, the harder it is to force everything to align to the prior schedule.. because every variation stacks.

If you are talking about struggling to reach consensus... that's a different topic than sticking to a schedule. You can already know your preferences for food and dining style with research and planning without locking in every meal of the week.

We tended to lock in the things we knew we really wanted.. and made our touring plans around that availability. That wasn't too horrible when you were only trying to schedule key dinners or lunches here and there. But when it got to "if you don't have an ADR, it's burgers and fries or nothing..." and "you gotta schedule ALL your meals.. or its QS" that's when things started to go sour. Then, it became Schedule all your meals... AND headliner rides... oh and now PARK RESERVERATIONS TOO? That's when it went from bad to F-U Disney.

I like to have the ability to say "what do people want to do?" instead of "fall in line... we have a schedule to keep!!". Disney should be about being entertained... and you don't always know what that will mean in advance.

When we started cruising more... this became so blatently obvious how ridiculous the parks had become. On the boat, I schedule a few key limited engagements I want, and each night I can look at the navigator at the next day and go "what looks interesting...." and make a decision based on how we feel then. Not 1-6 months ago. Maybe I'm looking for something athletic today... maybe I just want isolation... maybe I wanna drink more.. maybe I see they have a great movie playing.. maybe my kid wants to play more Bingo (and 6months prior didn't even know how to play). None of that stuff did I know months prior.

Heck, most of the recent park trips no one even knew we were going months in advance, or they were the kinds of trips where we didn't have the tickets in advance (band trips, etc) to do all these reservations. Or the kids didn't even know who they would be with... they just know they will be going to DHS with their school. And know what... FP+ and ADR everything FREAKING SUCKS for those kinds of visitors.

 

[Chi84]

Dining reservations aren't comparable because there's generally not a standby queue for restaurants. Whether we're talking about Genie or FastPass, if I don't have one, I don't just stand around nonplussed. I find a nearby ride with a reasonable wait to go on regardless of how many are in my party.

Disney attracts a lot of multi-generational groups that benefited from being able to guarantee the rides they wanted most at the times that worked for them. I don’t think the number of rides mattered as much.

I doubt Genie+ is going to work as well but I’ll be doing my best to ensure that everyone has the best vacation possible in April. If not, we’ll have to pick a different location for future trips, knowing we at least tried. Nothing will ever change the memories of all of our great WDW visits, but if it’s time to change we’ll make the best of it.

 

[Chi84]

maybe I wanna drink more..

I think this is going to be the greatest effect/legacy of Genie+

Seriously, I hope you’re right because I would hate to give up on WDW. I’ve had 37 years of practice working with every system and trip configuration possible; I’m going to do my best to make this one work.

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Dining reservations aren't comparable because there's generally not a standby queue for restaurants. Whether we're talking about Genie or FastPass, if I don't have one, I don't just stand around nonplussed. I find a nearby ride with a reasonable wait to go on regardless of how many are in my party.

That is true, but really only in the case of sit down restaurants. Quick service restaurants act more like rides. You arrange your ride schedule, and then you see what quick service restaurants you may want to hit. We normally go to the parks with between 6-10 people, and we frequently meet up between rides and make decisions on what quick service restaurants we want to go to on the fly.

 

[dig311dug]

Cost. But honestly I just think of it as sunk costs. I’m not going to spend all this other money to get here and not spend another x for genie or lightening lane. We’re fortunate and can afford

Chapek:

 

[lazyboy97o]

Disney attracts a lot of multi-generational groups that benefited from being able to guarantee the rides they wanted most at the times that worked for them. I don’t think the number of rides mattered as much.

You keep presenting edge cases. People didn’t like the hard limit on FastPass+. People didn’t like planning months in advance. Attractions per guest per hour is the metric that guides the design of a park and strongly correlates to measures of satisfaction.

 

[flynnibus]

I think this is going to be the greatest effect/legacy of Genie+

Seriously, I hope you’re right because I would hate to give up on WDW. I’ve had 37 years of practice working with every system and trip configuration possible; I’m going to do my best to make this one work.

I just stopped forcing it and let things flow.

I went to DLR and saw how awful our entertainment offerings were at WDW...
I took the family to other places in FL besides WDW...
I took the family on cruises instead of WDW...
I paid for Discovery Cove and was reminded how a premium experience at WDW used to feel like.. but was even better at DC.
I experienced the parks not just as the every few year family trip, but as solo, as adhoc, as paid and free...
I splurged and paid up for Deluxe on the last trip so my kids could experience the kind of surroundings I was graced with as a kid...

And even after that last splurge trip... I asked the family "what do you want to do next time?" -- and no one's top answer was WDW...

These days I find myself more interested in the Ops, ride design, and theme park science then I do visiting WDW to be entertained. And no one is chomping at the bit to go back. My mom still likes to go... and will be going for like 10 days to see the 50th at Shades of Green. But for me the payoff isn't worth the input. Even though my wife missed the bubble last time we went to DLR (her first)... I'd probably look to return there first.

The magic things that made WDW so standout 25+ years ago just don't stand out the same anymore. I'll have better food, better service, and more environmental wow at a place in Vegas for 1/2 the cost. The days of WDW leading in those categories and feeling good in return seem to be gone.

 

[dig311dug]

People didn’t like planning months in advance.

I sure did. Spreadsheets and all. Coming up for my jan trip I’m going freestyle… except for dining reservations. And def. NOT buying LL or G+.

 

[Chi84]

You keep presenting edge cases. People didn’t like the hard limit on FastPass+. People didn’t like planning months in advance. Attractions per guest per hour is the metric that guides the design of a park and strongly correlates to measures of satisfaction.

Good heavens, it’s okay if people do things differently. Not everyone is the same. Some people enjoy planning, and FP+ had a hard limit of 3 for only a very short time. That was changed early on. You’re entitled to your opinion on how people should experience the parks - it’s not necessary for everyone to agree with you.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I sure did. Spreadsheets and all. Coming up for my jan trip I’m going freestyle… except for dining reservations. And def. NOT buying LL or G+.

Yes, there are individuals who love to plan, but that isn’t the widespread preference. It’s a niche. It also requires a precision in operations that is difficult to scale. More planning actually requires excess capacity because you need something to fill in the time between the scheduled experiences. The amount of excess needed can come down if literally everything is scheduled but you still need some slack to ensure you are actually able to meet the obligations of the reservations.

Good heavens, it’s okay if people do things differently. Not everyone is the same. Some people enjoy planning, and FP+ had a hard limit of 3 for only a very short time. That was changed early on. You’re entitled to your opinion on how people should experience the parks - it’s not necessary for everyone to agree with you.

I am not talking about my opinion.

 

[mikejs78]

Yes, there are individuals who love to plan, but that isn’t the widespread preference. It’s a niche. It also requires a precision in operations that is difficult to scale. More planning actually requires excess capacity because you need something to fill in the time between the scheduled experiences. The amount of excess needed can come down if literally everything is scheduled but you still need some slack to ensure you are actually able to meet the obligations of the reservations.


I am not talking about my opinion.

I don't know if that's true. In my circle of friends, most who are not enthusiasts went once every 3 or 4 years, I never once heard a complaint about FP+ from any of them. Yet I now know at least 3 who came back from trips in the last couple of months ranting about G+.

I think the experience is not resonating with the average guest.

 

[Chi84]

I am not talking about my opinion.

Sure you are. WDW isn’t a typical theme park. It’s a major vacation destination that includes theme parks, water parks, themed resorts and entertainment venues. People visit for several days and spend tens of thousands of dollars. Many of them prefer to plan so they can make the most of their vacation and not miss the experiences they’re looking forward to. I don’t think you’re going to find too many fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants visitors there.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Another component of Genie+ that needs to happen is some of the old paper logic from the legacy Fastpass days. If you have a large group (say 5 or more) and the next Genie+ window only has 3 spots available, it should fill those 3 spots, bump everyone back 5 minutes and satisfy the entire group. I don't believe that is currently happening.

 

[James Alucobond]

Sure you are. WDW isn’t a typical theme park. It’s a major vacation destination that includes theme parks, water parks, themed resorts and entertainment venues. People visit for several days and spend tens of thousands of dollars. Many of them prefer to plan so they can make the most of their vacation and not miss the experiences they’re looking forward to. I don’t think you’re going to find too many fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants visitors there.

I think the point being made is that there's a difference between how people experience the parks now (or how they have been primed to experience them due to capacity issues and/or systems created to obfuscate those issues for some subset of guests) and how they were designed to be explored and experienced. It wasn't meant to feel like you were flying by the seat of your pants if you showed up with minimal planning. If it does, something has gone wrong. Likewise, if it feels like your entire day is forcibly set before you go, something's gone wrong in the opposite direction.

 

[LittleBuford]

I think the point being made is that there's a difference between how people experience the parks now (or how they have been primed to experience them due to capacity issues and/or systems created to obfuscate those issues for some subset of guests) and how they were designed to be explored and experienced. It wasn't meant to feel like you were flying by the seat of your pants if you showed up with minimal planning. If it does, something has gone wrong. Likewise, if it feels like your entire day is forcibly set before you go, something's gone wrong in the opposite direction.

I'm deeply sceptical of the notion that planning for a WDW trip is a novelty or something that wouldn't have benefitted guests in the good old days. The first Unofficial Guide to Walt Disney World was published back in 1985, complete with touring plans and a section entitled "Planning before you Leave Home". My first trip to WDW was in the early 1990s, when I was too young to plan anything and at the mercy of my parents, who didn't have a clue about the parks. Needless to say, we spent a lot of time queuing.

 

[James Alucobond]

I'm deeply sceptical of the notion that planning for a WDW trip is a novelty or something that wouldn't have benefitted guests in the good old days. The first Unofficial Guide to Walt Disney World was published back in 1985, complete with touring plans and a section entitled "Planning before you Leave Home". My first trip to WDW was in the early 1990s, when I was too young to plan anything and at the mercy of my parents, who didn't have a clue about the parks. Needless to say, we spent a lot of time queuing.

Planning is always a boon if you have specific things you want to experience, and I don't think an evaluative judgment was being made about people who like to plan versus those who don't. It's just that the parks are intended to be enjoyable for either type of guest, and the design of the physical space is meant to facilitate free-form exploration and discovery wherein the spaces between attractions can be as important as the attractions themselves.

 

[DisneyHead123]

Yes, there are individuals who love to plan, but that isn’t the widespread preference. It’s a niche. It also requires a precision in operations that is difficult to scale. More planning actually requires excess capacity because you need something to fill in the time between the scheduled experiences. The amount of excess needed can come down if literally everything is scheduled but you still need some slack to ensure you are actually able to meet the obligations of the reservations.


I am not talking about my opinion.

If you don't have a source with hard data, it is indeed an opinion, not a fact.

Personally (my opinion / impression) I think there is a large subset of the population who loves to plan (or just has to, because modern life requires it so it becomes a default mode). Heck, I love to plan, and I still find myself mystified by the planniness of people who love to plan even more than I do. Teacher gifts? I try to plan some clever little thing, but someone more enterprising has always planned something far more artistic and elaborate. Children's birthday parties? Don't even get me started. Organizational systems? I color code as my more organized friend laughs at my cute little attempt, having applied the KonMari Method to her entire life. Meal prep? I don't even understand the elaborateness of things that people claim are easy to just 'throw together' when you prep 18 different ingredients every Sunday that are also paleo based (starts breathing into paper bag).

Maybe it's just the area I'm in, but my intuition would be to say that a sizable percentage of Disney goers are major planners. If you look at the subset of the population who is almost neurotic about organizing, planning, and having good "systems", and the subset of the population who visits Disney World - yeah, I think there is likely some overlap there. I feel like the super chill types are probably off at music festivals on their vacation days.

 

[Chi84]

Planning is always a boon if you have specific things you want to experience, and I don't think an evaluative judgment was being made about people who like to plan versus those who don't. It's just that the parks are intended to be enjoyable for either type of guest, and the design of the physical space is meant to facilitate free-form exploration and discovery wherein the spaces between attractions can be as important as the attractions themselves.

I agree. That’s why we never stressed about not getting enough FP+. There are tons of spaces to explore while not waiting in long lines for rides. We enjoyed taking our time between scheduled rides. This last trip we spent that time looking at our phones trying to figure out what to schedule or buy next.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Sure you are. WDW isn’t a typical theme park. It’s a major vacation destination that includes theme parks, water parks, themed resorts and entertainment venues. People visit for several days and spend tens of thousands of dollars. Many of them prefer to plan so they can make the most of their vacation and not miss the experiences they’re looking forward to. I don’t think you’re going to find too many fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants visitors there.

Walt Disney World is not an anomaly. Just pause at the ticket windows one day and look at how many people are there buying tickets. Disney continues to operate those windows because the sales are not insignificant. NextGen cost billions of dollars, wasn’t fully built out, wasn’t expanded and has now seen its biggest guest facing feature done away with because it never worked as intended. It was supposed to be the new theme park paradigm and now it’s nowhere.

Planning is always a boon if you have specific things you want to experience, and I don't think an evaluative judgment was being made about people who like to plan versus those who don't. It's just that the parks are intended to be enjoyable for either type of guest, and the design of the physical space is meant to facilitate free-form exploration and discovery wherein the spaces between attractions can be as important as the attractions themselves.

It’s not just an issue of experience. As a basic operation of moving people around the sort of planning envisioned with FastPass+ can’t work without significantly curtailing attendance or dramatically increasing capacity (both the opposite of its goals). In order to schedule nearly everyone you need places to put them. Even highly scheduled boutique experiences that aren’t just a few hours have unstructured downtime because you start hitting challenges with having that much going on and keeping everyone engaged. We saw a version of the problem play out at Volcano Bay where there wasn’t enough of that slack capacity for when people were between reservations.

 

[dig311dug]

Yes, there are individuals who love to plan, but that isn’t the widespread preference. It’s a niche.

I am not talking about my opinion.

that’s your opinion.

Massive websites like touring plans, underground tourist, easy wdw, etc. etc. wouldn’t exist if people weren’t (overly)planning their wdw vacations.